Henry Kissinger: To settle the Ukraine crisis, start at the end

[Deleted]

He honestly might aswell just add "and we should disarm the world and live in peace and harmony forever"

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Huh? he did make that promise and he didnt deliver, its not a difficult question tbh, had the greek ousted tsipras after not delivering on his promises, I wouldnt have held it against them either, lying politicians is a major isssue for a democracy.

You know what is also a major issue for democracy? Coups.

[Crispin]

You know what is also a major issue for democracy? Coups.

Never said they werent, but you seem to ignore the context.

[Deleted]

Never said they werent, but you seem to ignore the context.

There was no context in Ukraine for a coup. If people were unhappy with the guy they would have voted him out next elections. Justifying coups for... broken promises is really REALLY absurd.

[Crispin]

There was no context in Ukraine for a coup. If people were unhappy with the guy they would have voted him out next elections. Justifying coups for... broken promises is really REALLY absurd.

Lying your way to office is barely democracy imo, and I doubt trade agreements are up for change everytime ukraine has an election.

And there were plenty of context, you just ignore it because otherwise you'll end up arguing that its ok to lie to voters, dont tell me you'd also oppose a coup in best korea to take them out of the current messed up dictatorship, or does context suddenly matter then?

[nextormento]

Calling the Euromaidan rev a "violent coup" or a "popular uprising against a tyrant" are both exercises of deliberately ignoring context and propaganda.

[Deleted]

Lying your way to office is barely democracy imo, and I doubt trade agreements are up for change everytime ukraine has an election.

And there were plenty of context, you just ignore it because otherwise you'll end up arguing that its ok to lie to voters, dont tell me you'd also oppose a coup in best korea to take them out of the current messed up dictatorship, or does context suddenly matter then?

Are you actually trying to say that Lying in politics sets the context for justifying coups?

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Calling the Euromaidan rev a "violent coup" or a "popular uprising against a tyrant" are both exercises of deliberately ignoring context and propaganda.

Was it not a
violent

violent
ˈvʌɪəl(ə)nt/Submit
adjective
1.
using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

coup?

coup
kuː/Submit
noun
1.
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

?

[Crispin]

Odd how you seem incapable of answering questions Djalil, I'll assume you're not really interested in debating anything, and to answer your question, it obviously depends on how i,portant for the countries future the lying is.

And I can only assume you'd also be against a coup in N korea, and apparently dont care about politicians lying their way to office, I guess your fascination of Putin makes sense, have a good one.

[caervek]

Didn't they vote for the guy who said that he would agree to the trade agreement with Europe an then he changed his mind as he was elected? I thought that was part of the reasons for the demonstrations.

It was more a case of he said he would agree to a trade agreement with the EU, but then the EU demands got ridiculous so he told them to shove their deal because Russia were offering a significantly better one, then some demonstrations started, then a coup.

Sadly you can't please all the people all the time and there is a clear divide in Ukraine between people who want an EU deal at any cost and people who want just what's best for Ukraine.

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And I can only assume you'd also be against a coup in N korea

Bit different, I don't foresee Kim holding any (real) elections in the foreseeable future.

[Independent voter]

Times change. What were factors then are not the same as now. What has been done over the last 2 years matters.

There hasn't been any change that I can tell.

[nextormento]

Was it not a violent coup?

Sure, so long as one deliberately ignores context and propagandizes the situation.

It was a legitimate exercise of the duty and right of revolution.
I can into propaganda too.

[Deleted]

Odd how you seem incapable of answering questions Djalil, I'll assume you're not really interested in debating anything, and to answer your question, it obviously depends on how i,portant for the countries future the lying is.

And I can only assume you'd also be against a coup in N korea, and apparently dont care about politicians lying their way to office, I guess your fascination of Putin makes sense, have a good one.

So first you tell us that lying in politics sets the context for an undemocratic coup, and then, while obviously embarassed by your outlandish claims, you try a PATHETIC attempt at throwing shit at me?
Ahahah Crispin. The door's that way. Come back when you actually MEAN the stuff you SAY.

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Sure, so long as one deliberately ignores context and propagandizes the situation.

It was a legitimate exercise of the duty and right of revolution.
I can into propaganda too.

Why do you add a level to the discussion i'm not even beginning to consider?
Was it, or was it not a violent coup?

[nextormento]

Why do you add a level to the discussion i'm not even beginning to consider?
Was it, or was it not a violent coup?

Because I'm not a propagandist deliberately ignoring context.
If you don't want to engage on that, then don't. I did, and you responded to me; if you're not considering that, don't engage with me. You don't direct the exchange; get over it.

Your second questions was already answered: Sure, so long as one deliberately ignores context and propagandizes the situation.

[Deleted]

Because I'm not a propagandist deliberately ignoring context.

Who exactly is a propagandist deliberately ignoring context when claiming maidan was a violent (100+ dead) coup (undemocratic process)? Please be clear.

If you don't want to engage on that, then don't. I did, and you responded to me; if you're not considering that, don't engage with me. You don't direct the exchange; get over it.

The fuck are you talking about?

Your second questions was already answered: Sure, so long as one deliberately ignores context and propagandizes the situation.

So what you are saying is that in THAT context, Maidan was NOT a coup?

1.
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government

Why would you not call something with its name?

[Keeponrage]

Yanukovich didn't break a promise with EU Agreement. He postponed it. And there were reasons for it. First reason is gas and electricity prices as well as apartment prices (or how is it named in english?) that had to be increased due to this trade agreement (to bring them to EU levels). So, again, he postponed it in order to find a better formula, and he still had like 2 years for this. He has gone for deal with Russia for 15 billions in order to resolve some social problems, invest in certain projects and make EU to be more compliant, foolishly relying on EU-democratic values and thinking that he actually gonna have a constructive dialog. He has got a coup in his face, politically supported by EU and US (plus maybe financially).

Now these prices, he tried to make a better deal about, are increased by 200%, 300% and maidanites a crying their asses off, yelling something like "This is not what we were participating in Maidan for !" Crucrucru. How come were they not? Simply - they didn't even bother to read this agreement through. Also, they didn't listen to "retards" like Yanukovich and his prime minister Azarov - they were always emphasizing this.

So what they were jumping at Maidan for? For better living standards (which is not bad by itself) they stupidly hoped to get by just touching EU via trade agreement and which they don't currently deserve. They probably thought, that if EU could take baltic midgets on a balance just because they hate Russia, then they are as good as in if they'd show some heating hatred towards Russia and Russians - that's why anti-Russian rhetoric on Maidan was so well presented (Russia is our main enemy, Muscovites to the knifes, Muscovites to the rope, etc , etc).

Nice fucking bridge between EU and Russia. Actually, Russia and EU are trying to remove this "bridge" out of equation by Northern Stream-2.

[Deleted]

@nextormento please clarify how the context changes Maidan in "not a coup"

[nextormento]

Why would you not call something with its name?

I'm not the one labeling or failing to label the rev. I'm just encouraging readers to explore the issue further, because it can't be contained in a simple to digest label: the labeling of the rev as a "coup" or as a "popular uprising against tyranny" is deliberately ignoring context.

[Deleted]

I'm not the one labeling or failing to label the rev. I'm just encouraging readers to explore the issue further, because it can't be contained in a simple to digest label: the labeling of the rev as a "coup" or as a "popular uprising against tyranny" is deliberately ignoring context.

No it's not. One is a name the other one is an interpretation.

[nextormento]

@nextormento please clarify how the context changes Maidan in "not a coup"

The rev was against the presidency, who in Ukraine doesn't hold the executive or much power: it's not the government.
Yanukovych's ousting was irregular, but not promoted nor enacted by the revolutionaries, (the "usurpers" in the case of a coup), but by the elected parliament. Though they did deliver an ultimatum threatening a coup, which didn't actually materialize.
There's little reason to label it a coup other than sensationalizing the events. This label is something only Yanukovych and Russia are using: because they have a vested interest in misleading the public opinion.

[Deleted]

The rev was against the presidency, who in Ukraine doesn't hold the executive or much power: it's not the government.
Yanukovych's ousting was irregular, but not promoted nor enacted by the revolutionaries, (the "usurpers" in the case of a coup), but by the elected parliament. Though they did deliver an ultimatum threatening a coup, which didn't actually materialize.
There's little reason to label it a coup other than sensationalizing the events. This label is something only Yanukovych and Russia are using: because they have a vested interest in misleading the public opinion.

The elected parliament never actually achieved the numbers necessary to oust Yanukovich so what are you even talking about?

[nextormento]

No it's not. One is a name the other one is an interpretation.

"Coup" is just an interpretation. Was the French revolution a coup?. Sure, so long as we ignore a whole lot of context.
Geopolitics are cynical and hypocritical. I have no reason to give in to partisan interpretations.

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The elected parliament never actually achieved the numbers necessary to oust Yanukovich so what are you even talking about?

Like I said, it was irregular.
Euromaidan wasn't the ones ousting the president, though.