What will Legion 10 man raiding offer?

[Hashcrypt]

So without a guild change, I'm likely limited to 10 man raiding in Legion. I'm ok with this but, from my understanding, 10 man raids won't have access to mythic difficulty?

I can't find a straight answer on what exactly 10 man raids will offer in Legion, so wondering if anyone here knows the answer?

Will 10 mans at least offer heroic difficulty? Will set pieces drop from 10 mans? Will iLevel be comparable to 20 mans?

Or has the 10 man raid scene essentially died?

[Deja Thoris]

There is no "10 man" anymore.

Raids "flex" in size from 10 to 30 people and you get normal and heroic with all the loot drops on the bosses loot table.

Mythic (old heroic) is 20 man fixed only.

[Deleted]

Seems OP left during Cata and never looked back, huh? One would ask "Why now?" after so long
@OP - if you want do to smaller size content we might recommend you Mythic+ Dungeons.
Otherwise raiding at the moment is normal and heroic(not the heroic from WotLK and Cataclysm) is in flexible size from 10 to 30 and the usual smallest setup is around 15 people - 2tanks/4healers/9dpsers and it is not hard to be raid ready nor to find suitable group.

[Hashcrypt]

Seems OP left during Cata and never looked back, huh? One would ask "Why now?" after so long
@OP - if you want do to smaller size content we might recommend you Mythic+ Dungeons.
Otherwise raiding at the moment is normal and heroic(not the heroic from WotLK and Cataclysm) is in flexible size from 10 to 30 and the usual smallest setup is around 15 people - 2tanks/4healers/9dpsers and it is not hard to be raid ready nor to find suitable group.

Yea I didn't raid in WoD. Played for a couple months, then left until around june of this year. Wasn't aware that 10 man raiding disappeared.

Glad that 10 man heroic is still a thing though. Thanks!

[Sxq]

The only thing you can't do in a small raid group is mythic.

Nothin wrong with doing normals/heroics with 10 people, although keep in mind that there are no longer separate settings based on raid size: everything scales dynamically to the number of players that you have.

[Spotnick]

You can do 2 groups of mythic+ dungeons.

[HumbleDuck]

Glad that 10 man heroic is still a thing though. Thanks!

Nah, it is not. At least not in the sense of pre-warlords HCs.
HC difficulty is now called mythic which is 20 man only.

[nostradamux]

By the sound of your question Im guessing you're asking if 10m have access to the hardest content. Unfortunately, no. Bigger question you should ask yourself is does that bother you and why you even raid to begin with.

Normal & heroic content can give you the highest ilvl gear possible in the game. Although the base ilvl in normal/heroic is lower then mythic meaning, mythic raid can give you a better chance at higher ilvl gears, but getting the best gears possible is still possible through normal/heroic raiding means, just not as likely.

Personally I raided almost exclusively as 10man during Cata/MoP, but my stupid ego gets in the way of not being able to do the suppose "hardest content" (/shrug). But if not being able to do the hardest content doesn't bother you, you can maybe go for being a Mythic+ hero and see if you can push higher greater rift. I mean Dungeon (heh).

[Delphirus]

We can always hope that Blizzard did a better job of balancing 10 man this time around, but honestly, I'm not going to hold my breath. Their scaling system was awful if you had a small group. Throughout WoD I raided in a smaller (13 on a good day) group, and it was -difficult- (though, honestly, part of tha twas because we had a couple people who got a free ride to raid groups because nostalgia, and we wouldn't have a raid group at all without them). They balance everything around 20. Bring more than that, the fight is trivial, bring less than 15, and its an exercise in frustration. Who knows, though. Maybe they learned their lesson and things will scale better this time around, but realistically, they probably spend the most time balancing around 20 man.

[ComputerNerd]

We can always hope that Blizzard did a better job of balancing 10 man this time around, but honestly, I'm not going to hold my breath. Their scaling system was awful if you had a small group. Throughout WoD I raided in a smaller (13 on a good day) group, and it was -difficult- (though, honestly, part of tha twas because we had a couple people who got a free ride to raid groups because nostalgia, and we wouldn't have a raid group at all without them). They balance everything around 20. Bring more than that, the fight is trivial, bring less than 15, and its an exercise in frustration. Who knows, though. Maybe they learned their lesson and things will scale better this time around, but realistically, they probably spend the most time balancing around 20 man.

And that is an unavoidable problem with scaling an encounter to the number of players.
There is no way to do that for even two fixed sizes to get the same difficulty for both, let alone the far greater quantity of options that flex offers.
As you said that is why Mythic is one size only, because two formats will only go the way 10m and 25m did, having every encounter be easier in one or the other, and likely not consistently one way or the other.

The fixed size was always going to alienate one group, the larger or the smaller raid groups. 10m or 25m.
So whether intentional or not, it ended up doing it to both.

[Deleted]

We can always hope that Blizzard did a better job of balancing 10 man this time around, but honestly, I'm not going to hold my breath. Their scaling system was awful if you had a small group. Throughout WoD I raided in a smaller (13 on a good day) group, and it was -difficult- (though, honestly, part of tha twas because we had a couple people who got a free ride to raid groups because nostalgia, and we wouldn't have a raid group at all without them). They balance everything around 20. Bring more than that, the fight is trivial, bring less than 15, and its an exercise in frustration. Who knows, though. Maybe they learned their lesson and things will scale better this time around, but realistically, they probably spend the most time balancing around 20 man.

some bosses just can be same diffculty for 10 as 30people, example kilrogg with vision , archis nether banish. bosses with such a design cant be equal for 10and 30 people/

[Delphirus]

some bosses just can be same diffculty for 10 as 30people, example kilrogg with vision , archis nether banish. bosses with such a design cant be equal for 10and 30 people/

Yeah, I can totally understand hard mechanics like that where X number of things go out - that sort of thing is hard to scale because then you'll just end up with a breakpoint, per se. "Bring 13 people, and you get 2 people in the eye phase (for an example people can relate to - I know the fight doesn't work this way), bring 14-23, and you get 3, 24-30 you get 4"

What I'm talking about is more the damage and healing requirements were actually proven to be more difficult for group sizes under 15, and mechanics were less forgiving. One person messing up and dying early in a 10 man group is a -huge- deal compared to larger group sizes, too. Overall, it was a pretty frustrating expansion to be in a small group. I'm just hoping they do better in Legion. Well, that, and I've changed guilds, which should help. More people and all.

[Hashcrypt]

So are some WoD encounters simply not possible at the 10 man level? If not, I'm wondering if that trend will continue into Legion..

[Deleted]

So are some WoD encounters simply not possible at the 10 man level? If not, I'm wondering if that trend will continue into Legion..

they were all possible, though for lower amount required bit more ilvl in the raidgroup to down. (example archi)

[Kuruption]

So are some WoD encounters simply not possible at the 10 man level? If not, I'm wondering if that trend will continue into Legion..

They're possible, just not as hard as heroic was pre-WoD (maybe some exceptions).

[Deleted]

They're possible, just not as hard as heroic was pre-WoD (maybe some exceptions).

I fondly remember the ICC heroic, and how we pugged it on alts every week.
I wouldn't compare Heroic to mythic, to be fair.

[Deja Thoris]

So are some WoD encounters simply not possible at the 10 man level? If not, I'm wondering if that trend will continue into Legion..

They are all possible but in reality sometimes it was desirable to bring more than 10 and frankly the biggest reason for this was poor tuning.

Archimonde is a good example. Certain people get sent to other realms leaving them a badly scaled add to kill and the rest in the normal realm had more adds that were also not well scaled. So the options were bring more people to make it scale more favourably or hope Blizz fix it.

[Polarthief]

Seems OP left during Cata and never looked back, huh? One would ask "Why now?" after so long

Because Cata-WoD was the worst time in WoW's history and he's coming back at the perfect time. OP got off very easy.

OT: 10-30 drops the same iLvl. Raiding is now 10-30 for Normal/Heroic, and 20 for Mythic. The 10/25 system is long dead.

[ceall]

Yea I didn't raid in WoD. Played for a couple months, then left until around june of this year. Wasn't aware that 10 man raiding disappeared.

Glad that 10 man heroic is still a thing though. Thanks!

You played from Nov. 14 till June 16 and never heard that normal and heroic are flexible? You must be kidding oO.
I mean you literally played WoD for one and a half years.

Tbh, 10 man raiding will give you max. 2 months of content if you're semi-decent. If you want to raid all expansion long, you should look for low end mythic guilds (around world rank 1500-2500), but this needs you to adapt to being in a 20 man roster, which really isn't that hard. I'm an ex-10-man-heroic (cata/mop) who successfully converted to 20-man-mythic after failing to convert to 25-man-heroic.