Pre-patch cinematics [spoilers] (duh)

[Mehrunes]

If a valkyr starts flying to the alliance, surrounded by human bodies, I don't think the first thing they would think is "oh a messenger"

Also, this.

By the way, empty your inbox a bit :3

[Maxilian]

So sylvanas should sacrifice a val'kyr as a messenger?

I think those were lesser Valkyrs (like the ones seen in the Worgen starting zone)

[Frozen Death Knight]

If a valkyr starts flying to the alliance, surrounded by human bodies, I don't think the first thing they would think is "oh a messenger"

Excuses. The Horde and Alliance had a ceasefire and were cooperating on the grounds of wanting to defeat the Legion. Unless everyone on Azeroth can no longer comprehend language anymore, then this point is completely moot.

[Maxilian]

The conflict could have also been avoided if Genn didn't jump to conclusions even though he saw the army of demons that arrived at the ridge where the Horde was, which made it clear as the brightest day ever that they were overrun.

Remember that Genn will always go to a biased conclusion cause... well... his history with Sylvanas doesn't let him see her in a "good" light, he will always expect the worse from her

[Mehrunes]

If you do not even bother explaining yourself in the first place, then you are also responsible for what happens afterwards. You are just justifying Genn's interpretation of the situation if you are just going to keep your mouth shut. Especially when you have a reputation of being a massive backstabber and untrustworthy like Sylvanas, even by your own faction as well faction leader.

They were kinda busy escaping annihilation and their whooping five Val'kyr were busy carrying bodies. And when did Sylvanas get this reputation? The only person she seriously backstabbed that I can think of is Garithos. And the problem with her backstabbing Garithos is that none of his men survived to spread the news about her backstabbery. The situation can be cleared up afterwards.

[Maxilian]

Seems like a really weird thing to go into battle with someone and not know what they're "retreat" signal is. Regardless of how you spin it, the whole issue could have been solved by simple communication either before, during, or after the battle occurred. Instead we get this incompetent writing which ignores the methods of communication available in the universe; according to the movie there is magical "holocommunicators," old fashioned written letters, emissarys, Valkyr, and several others... and I'd think that when a world ending threat is at your doorstep, you'd bend over backwards to ensure your tenuous ally, who is just as strong or stronger than your fighting force at least doesn't abandon you, but more importantly doesn't start a war with you over a stupid miscommunication.

You know, i don't think its bad writting, in the end, why would Genn or Jaina trust whatever Sylvanas says (We have had wars in RL for way less)

[Traveler Voltin]

I think those were lesser Valkyrs (like the ones seen in the Worgen starting zone)

Who knows but we only see 5.
So sylvanas should sacrifice a horde member and a valkyr to warn the alliance?

[Mehrunes]

Excuses. The Horde and Alliance had a ceasefire and were cooperating on the grounds of wanting to defeat the Legion. Unless everyone on Azeroth can no longer comprehend language anymore, then this point is completely moot.

So is the idea that people can't comprehend horn signals that result in an army retreating.

[Deleted]

Obviously the horn wasn't a signal that the Alliance knew of. For all we know, from the Alliance's point of view, the Horde was indeed abandoning them.

The Alliance didn't knew of? Then why Varian instantly understood the meaning of the horn?

It was Genn that assumed the worse of the retreat.

[Maxilian]

Who knows but we only see 5.
So sylvanas should sacrifice a horde member and a valkyr to warn the alliance?

Because we see only 5 is the reason i assume that's a lesser Valkyr, i'm pretty sure Sylvanas have less than 5 Valkyrs left (the normal Valkyrs), also not saying that she should have done that, just saying

[Friendlyimmolation]

Also, this.

By the way, empty your inbox a bit :3

Your not my supervisor! Also fine.

[Frozen Death Knight]

So is the idea that people can't comprehend horn signals that result in an army retreating.

The Alliance understood the retreat horn. However, a horn does not explain reasons for retreat. Words do. Do you honestly think just because a retreat horn is sounded you no longer need to communicate using words? As Katchii said earlier, there are several ways of communication in this world, so at least try to use one of them.

[Traveler Voltin]

Because we see only 5 is the reason i assume that's a lesser Valkyr, i'm pretty sure Sylvanas have less than 5 Valkyrs left (the normal Valkyrs), also not saying that she should have done that, just saying

She has 4 main ones right now

[Mehrunes]

The Alliance understood the retreat horn. However, a horn does not explain reasons for retreat. Words do. Do you honestly think just because a retreat horn is sounded you no longer need to communicate using words? As Katchii said earlier, there are several ways of communication in this world, so at least try to use one of them.

And what other reason could the Horde have had? "Oh, Sylvanas left the stove on. I bet she did it on purpose, that betraying bitch!"? Because I kinda doubt Sylvanas does a lot of cooking. And sound signals are one way of communication, so the Horde did not only try to use one of them, they did use one of them.

[Frozen Death Knight]

And what other reason could the Horde have had? "Oh, Sylvanas left the stove on. I bet she did it on purpose, that betraying bitch!"? Because I kinda doubt Sylvanas does a lot of cooking. And sound signals are one way of communication, so the Horde did not only try to use one of them, they did use one of them.

Perhaps the Alliance should hire this guy to interpret horn signals then, since they are such a perfect way of communicating everything to you.

https://youtu.be/N8CpvGd0xmk?t=5m22s

[Mehrunes]

Perhaps the Alliance should hire this guy to interpret horn signals then, since they are such a perfect way of communicating everything to you.

https://youtu.be/N8CpvGd0xmk?t=5m22s

Yes, completely comparable to sound signals in specific situation that then results in Horde withdrawing. And you just said that the Alliance understood what it meant, so hurray for goalpost moving.

[Aucald]

Having done the Broken Shore scenario on both Horde and Alliance characters now, I find myself taken aback at just how masterful the Legion's ploy with the Broken Shore really was. In ensuring that the Alliance feels betrayed by the Horde's withdrawal (being overrun from an otherwise obscured front of the battle), they pit the factions against one-another once more - with your more partisan leaders like Genn more than willing to focus on the Horde over the Legion, and vice-versa. With the Horde and Alliance once more at each other's throats they can bear down on their distracted enemies and take them down.

As a strategy it's totally viable, and people's reactions to the deaths of Varian and Vol'jin almost decisively prove how well it would work. Adds a lot of impact to just how intelligent and malevolent Kil'jaeden and his Nathrezim lieutenants truly are.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Yes, completely comparable to sound signals in specific situation that then results in Horde withdrawing. And you just said that the Alliance understood what it meant, so hurray for goalpost moving.

I did not move the goalposts at all. The entire point is that just because you understand the sound of a horn meaning retreat does not mean that it will mean the same thing to everyone involved. Words matter here. Use them. A horn does not explain everything and your insistence that it does is borderline ludicrous.

[Mehrunes]

If the demons' numbers are reason enough to retreat, then why didn't the Horde retreat the moment they saw the gigantic demonic portal opened on the horizon? Why didn't they retreat the moment they landed on the shore? Why didn't they retreat the moment they just arrived to battle? The number of demons visible there is far greater than the number they've encountered during the cinematic.

Because the demons didn't break their defenses from the start? And the spaceships that bomb them appear at the end of the scenario? And it is apparent to the Alliance that the demons got close enough to the Horde position for them to retreat because they appear on the cliff only seconds later?

Yes, fel guards are cannon fodder compared to pit lords and dreadlords. Managing to impale Varian from behind still doesn't make them a greater threat than the Burning Legion's top "officers".

Your cannon fodder is larger and stronger physically than any playable race. And I didn't say they are greater threat than stronger demons. I said they are still enough of a threat not to be dismissed with bullshit remarks like that. Also, the Horde faces much more than just Felguards, including multiple named Man'ari Eredar, which are the top dogs of the Legion, and those are much larger than Jaraxxus. And then there's the spaceships that appear at the end of Horde scenario to bomb them. Plus the Horde had to fight on two fronts, holding back the demon swarm from the portal and babysit Alliance offering them support because they are too stupid to bring their own archers.

If your interpretation is to have any weight whatsoever, then omniscience is necessary. There was no reason for the Alliance to retreat as long as they think that the Horde is alright and fighting; they've dealt with far greater catastrophes in the past in terms of attacker/defender rates. The point is that they didn't know that the Horde was already beaten to its knees. Therefor yes, only an omniscient Alliance would know why the Horde retreated.

Who said anything about reasons for Alliance to retreat? The topic is Horde's reasons to retreat. Which are self evident in the cinematic and the Horde scenario. And please, where exactly have any of the factions faces a greater army and won?

[satimy]

Sylvannas is so bae