Alliance vs Horde wounds reopened over a misunderstanding?

[Lupinemancer]

The Horde is a bunch of weaklings, getting their asses handed to them fighting a pocket force and then running like cowards.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

I really like how the Alliance cinematic shows the whole situation wrong.

In the end, even if you saw the complete picture.. it's still a war and people will always be pissed at one another. I like this. It's what drives the struggles for warcraft

[Trassk]

The Horde is a bunch of weaklings, getting their asses handed to them fighting a pocket force and then running like cowards.

oh do shut up please, it gets dull how you make this uneducated bias about factions. As someone on one of the US servers have said, he watched as a dedicated raid group beat up the legion forces coming on the broken shore, and held out a long time, until the legion space ships bombarded the horde with lazers from above, whipping everything out.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748284823

The horde would have lost and died if they remained, they made the smart decision, a pity Varian didn't figure it out quicker.

[Deleted]

Then why did they go there in the first place? They went there because they though they had a chance to do something. They wouldn't go there if they didn't believe they had a chance of achieving victory.

If they went there knowing they can't do anything, then both the Alliance and Horde leadership is comprised of dumbasses.

Yeah. Close the portal or die trying. That is the definition of a suicide mission. Complete the goal even if it means death. Not go there and die pointlessly.

[Chemii]

I still don't understand the plan for Sylvanas honestly. She's always been about revenge and selfishly staying alive, via resurrection of the dead, she's done some horrible things as early as the events of War Crimes. In a lot of cases she acts like a psychopath that is no different to the Lich King.

So why are they turning her into a type of anti-hero, one act of kindness doesn't make her worthy of being the war-chief. Is that what the Horde has become?

[Stormdash]

Then why did they go there in the first place?

Same reason the Horde and Alliance marched on Angrathar despite being objectively certain to fail (since Angrathar is not the Frozen Throne, ergo Arthas could not be defeated there) -- because they didn't know any better.

In the case of the Broken Shore, because the Legion had an active hand in deceiving them into thinking they did.

[Mehrunes]

That said, it's not information the Alliance has, and the two factions aren't exactly quick sit down and chat with each other at the best of times, so it's not information that's going to be readily available to the Alliance either...

At the end of Horde scenario Legion's space ships arrive to bomb the shit out of Horde's position and they are huge, loud and their projectiles are bright as hell. Plus the demon army then appears at Horde's previous positions. That's plenty of information about the situation above.

[Alvito]

Not sure how much you know about warfare buddy but most battles where the King dies have almost always resulted in retreat/abandonment throughout history. Cutting off the head of the body leaves a spasming aimless mass of nothing intelligent.

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Jaina is a good character but let's not go down that road. Why isn't she fighting at the broken shore??? Where is she in all this?

Her absence since the demon hunters are freed and huge change in attitude in the last 2 expansions are just some of the reasons people think the real Jaina died in Theramore and this Jaina is a dreadlord.

[Mehrunes]

The Alliance had no idea the Horde was beaten to its knees already. They expected them to jump into the fray any second to wrap it up together.

Because it's really easy to miss Legion's spaceships. They are so small and quiet after all.

Exaclty.

Instead of the Horde doing the OBVIOUS BAD THING #251 to spark the conflict that gets painted as moral grey when it clearly isn't to anyone with half a brain stem, we get clearly shown that there's not a compelte cycle of information going through and with what the Alliance has to Work with, they are justifiably angry but what the Horde had to do we are also shown they actually had to do it and not have them do it and just give a weak shrug and a weaker reasoning,

Horde does obvious bad thing? You mean when Varian invaded Undercity and attacked two Horde leaders and declared war after Alliance and Horde alike were killed by traitors that joined the Legion? Or the Cataclysm-onward conflict where Alliance first broke the trade treaty which was one of the results of earlier peace talks, which gave Garrosh justification to attack Ashenvale, but he didn't need one because Theramore attacked first?

The retreat made, zero sense in the greater view. It was pretty much a "screw them, save ours" which was partly pointless because Vol'jin ended up dying anyway. This is the problematic thing, the Alliance doesn't need to care why exactly Sylvannas chose to throw them to the Legion to save her own people but only that she did. Yes losses could've been higher overall but she threw away a chance at ending it early on and caused the Alliance to be overrun to save her own people.

Obviously nothing will happen, because Sylvannas has thicker plot armor than Green Jesus.

They wouldn't do shit because we need Pillars of Creation to seal the portal anyway. And they didn't cause the Alliance to be overrun at all. What were those Felguards at the cliff going to do? Scream insults at Varian? The only thing that their retreat changed for the Alliance was Felbats being more problematic, but he could have, you know, grabbed some Night Elven archers. Not to mention that him not doing so meant that Horde had to fight on two fronts and babysit them.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I wanted to ask isn't it just stupid that "For Azeroth" means nothing now over a stupid misunderstanding? The Alliance perspective obviously doesn't show the Horde warchief being stabbed in the stomach and therefore needing to retreat. It's understandable the Horde would have to retreat.

But the Alliance don't know that at this stage. They think they're just being cowards and running away which is not true. Do the Alliance not think to maybe ask Sylvanas wtf that was all about before going at each others throats again in Legion?

The problem is that the Horde betrayed the Alliance, which is what lead to the calamitous results.
To clarify, I'm not saying that the Horde wanted to leave the Alliance forces to their fates, however the Horde's leadership shows an outstanding level of incompetence in their actions in the cinematic. Instead of evaluating their state throughout the battle (ie: keeping a sense of how well long they could continue the fight), they immediately fled the moment that they realized that a number of their leaders were wounded and their numbers were dwindling. The leadership's complete lack of awareness is what led to a situation in which the Horde had to retreat without first warning the Alliance, and abandoning your allies on the battlefield is betrayal. If the Horde were keeping their situation in mind, and sent a runner to alert the Alliance of the retreat, then the situation would have ended differently. Even if it had not, at least the Horde would have kept their honor, and couldn't be accused of betraying their allies.

The TL;DR is that the situation isn't a misunderstanding, it's mismanagement on the part of the Horde leadership which exacerbated an already horrible situation, abandoning their allies on the battlefield to what could have been their annihilation.

[edw]

Just because your leader is wounded or killed in battle, is not reason to flee the battle entirely and leave your allies with no support, support which they rely on.

yes, 100% this

[Mehrunes]

Pretty much exactly this. Sylvanas summoned a battalion of Val'kyr out of the sky to just fly her shitty little fighters out of the fray but she left the Alliance for dead because Vol'jin managed to tug at her heartstrings. People are saying the horn was enough warning but she couldn't send ONE idiot to the cliff to say "hey we're retreating because we're all dying" at the last minute? The Alliance has every right to want her head on a pike for like the seventh time.

Obviously them retreating after the signal wasn't clear enough. Demons appearing on those positions seconds later wasn't clear enough. Sylvanas left to check her mail and the demons were close enough to appear immediately after only due to a coincidence.

Since when does Sylvanas even care about the Horde that much beyond self-preservation? Well, she doesn't, except now she was holding the dying Warchief in her arms and saw an opportunity to take over. NOW she cares about the Horde because it belongs to her.

She took over really hard indeed. Vol'jin appointed her on his own, but it totes happened.

The Horde does not face consequences for their actions. The Alliance loses leaders every other week, but being upset about that is somehow Wrong™.

Except Horde lost more leaders so far.

Dude, I did play it. Before I even touched the Alliance side because I have exactly ONE Alliance char and 10 Horde characters. Both sides were dying en masse, it's a D-Day esque battle. It's as if the Americans and British would've retreated during D-Day while leaving the Canadians behind to die. Not for any good reasons but solely to nurture their own strenght and not lose troops, in a scenario that will only lead to a prolonged conflict and even more losses down the road.

And you missed the Legion's spaceships bombarding the Horde position and not the Alliance's at the end of the scenario or are you just deliberately ignoring them?

"Pulling together" and "cooperation" only works when both sides do so, not when one side has a runnign theme since BC to backstab the other, letting them suffer the brunt of the losses and ending up better for it in the long run as they occasionally wage open war upon them. It's a clear continuation of that albeit this time around they attempted to make it more morally grey aswell as justified, which in the grander picture really doesn't change much.

Do list the cases of Horde backstabbing the Alliance if it's a running theme already. And the occasional wars were weirdly enough started by the Alliance, but who'd pay attention to such details.

[Littlepwny]

From my POV, the Horde was completely justified with their retreat (we always knew this) but Genn and Jaina are also completely justified in believing that the Horde betrayed them, especially since their leader died during the retreat.

Also, I am very disappointed that Blizzard completely forgot to include Jaina in the cinematic. If this is just a mere fuck-up or a gradual attempt to, essentially, delete her from the game we do not know yet. I hope it is the former but I suspect it is the latter. Jaina is a great character and I hope we are not done with her yet.

[Mehrunes]

Who exactly knew that?
Last time we had portals it was enough for us to just kill those channeling them from 1 side.
The fake SI:7 report might also have had something to do with us not knowing what we are in for.

Why do people keep forgetting that the world of azeroth has no internet to look things up.

Them not knowing that doesn't exactly change anything, does it? The end result would be them getting wiped out because they cannot stop the stream of demons. That is if Gul'dan didn't drop the Fel Reaver meteor on the Alliance if his side actually started losing. Without a mobile airship to avoid it they'd be burned to crisp without the Fel Reaver even needing to do anything. And demon portals during their main invasions were always durable. In SWP Anveena needed to sacrifice her life to turn Sunwell's power against Kil'Jaeden. In War of the Ancients Malfurion needed to blow it up with half of the world.

Continuing misundersatndings....

Wrathgate, Garrosh, now this....interesting who is the instigator...EVERY SINGLE TIME

Traitors who joined the Legion, then Night Elves with Theramore and now Genn, Rogers and Jaina? I mean, there is a common theme across the last two, but the Legion sympathizers kinda don't fit for there to be EVERY SINGLE TIME.

We're seeing things through the eyes of Sylvanas now, and we've already had to address her issues of sustainability. What she would see as a scenario in which to retreat would very well be different to what another would. But as some have mentioned, the Alliance cannot see what is going on, they were already fostering a rivalry through tentative peace when attacking Krosus. They were never going to give the Horde the benefit of the doubt that they were actually struggling, and with Genn behind Varian, anti-horde rhetoric was always going to come out strong.

The Horde scenario ends with Legion spaceships decimating their positions. The only way this could have been more visible (from anywhere on the island) is if the ships went kamikaze on them.

Also this. Intelligence is one main function of air units.

This made me realize that Mekkatorque summons the gunship around the same time Horde gets routed. Not only should the crew have been able to see the Horde retreating, but also the massive clusterfuck of demons up there in all its glory. Hell, even the main Alliance party should have seen it once they boarded it to retreat. The Alliance's (well, Genn's and Jaina's mostly) interpretation gets more flimsy by the second.

not....scurred. Bring it. We could of ended the Horde at the end of Cata but we let you live. Remember the warning we gave your new warchief after we defeated Hellscream in SoO. We...will....END you if you betray us...and we will. }=]

Because the Alliance leaders could have totally survived an all out brawl with the Horde leaders especially without Malfurion around.

[Disreali]

It was Sylvanas that destroyed Gilneas. You expect Genn to say "Oh, the woman who destroyed my kingdom and killed most of my people left us all to die but I'm sure she had her reasons."?

Horde fanboys expect exactly that, becaus Sylvy's their collective waifu.

The alliance fanboy mindset of 'well the horde should have sacrificed themselves to give Varian more time' is what I've come to expect from this community, but seeing doesn't make it any less cringeworthy. If it were Sylvanas and the horde on the ground and Varian and the alliance on the hill, and Varian did what sylvanas did, then it would have been perfectly fine and the alliance fans would expect sylvanas to give the hordes lives up so the alliance can escape.

So sick of this faction bias crap, when you can SEE WHATS HAPPENING ON BOTH SIDES.

What is it the Horde like to yell? That's right. "Victory or death!"

I guess that comes with an asterisk?

And I find it hilarious that you're playing the "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THINGS FROM BOTH SIDES?" card in a post that only attacks Alliance fans.

[Mehrunes]

The Horde is a bunch of weaklings, getting their asses handed to them fighting a pocket force and then running like cowards.

The pocket force is much larger than what Alliance faces, consists of more Man'ari and culminates in Legion's spaceship reaping a new crater in the local scenery.

The problem is that the Horde betrayed the Alliance, which is what lead to the calamitous results.
To clarify, I'm not saying that the Horde wanted to leave the Alliance forces to their fates, however the Horde's leadership shows an outstanding level of incompetence in their actions in the cinematic. Instead of evaluating their state throughout the battle (ie: keeping a sense of how well long they could continue the fight), they immediately fled the moment that they realized that a number of their leaders were wounded and their numbers were dwindling.

That could be, you know, because Horde scenario ends with Legion's ships arriving to fuck them over. Unless you want to claim the Horde had some of radar or tracking devices on these ships, it's hard to account for them.

The leadership's complete lack of awareness is what led to a situation in which the Horde had to retreat without first warning the Alliance, and abandoning your allies on the battlefield is betrayal. If the Horde were keeping their situation in mind, and sent a runner to alert the Alliance of the retreat, then the situation would have ended differently. Even if it had not, at least the Horde would have kept their honor, and couldn't be accused of betraying their allies.

Retreating isn't betrayal. It's impossible to send a runner down a goddamn cliff. Sounding the horn was enough of a warning and was understood by Varian just fine.

[Disreali]

There is an entire minute of the video dedicated to showing what the retreat looked like from the Alliance perspective and people still expect Genn, Jaina and the rest of the Alliance that was present there to know what is happening on a plateau behind a cliff and not understanding this is a preplanned lure into death.

Of course! The "why don't you watch the other side's video?" is only a valid argument when a Horde fan says it.

[Mehrunes]

Horde fanboys expect exactly that, becaus Sylvy's their collective waifu.

It was also expected that the Alliance victims who believe Blizzard spits in their faces would come here in swarms to vomit out their regurgitated bullcrap about Sylvanas waifu.

What is it the Horde like to yell? That's right. "Victory or death!"

I guess that comes with an asterisk?

Yeah, because Horde never retreated before. They are all suicidal maniacs and it's not those who surrender that are seen as dishonorable. Obviously after you retreat you can never achieve a victory. Because reasons. And Sylvanas gives all the shits about Orc customs anyway, despite being a pragmatist that has retreated to better positions numerous times while Arthas was invading Quel'thalas.

And I find it hilarious that you're playing the "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THINGS FROM BOTH SIDES?" card in a post that only attacks Alliance fans.

Because it's just the Alliance fans that seem to have blinders on their heads.

Of course! The "why don't you watch the other side's video?" is only a valid argument when a Horde fan says it.

Which is funny, because it's the Alliance's video that shows Alliance leaders seeing that Horde positions got swarmed by army of demons moment after they retreated. Whatever could have forced them to retreat /s

But there's more! It's also the Alliance video that shows the timeline of the gunship's arrival better. And it's through it that we learn it arrived pretty much at the same time as the Horde was routed. Which would mean that its crew could see not just the ridge Alliance leaders saw below, but the entire plateau and how it swarmed with demons as the Horde retreats. Obviously the Horde left the Alliance to die because that was their plan all along.

[Deleted]

What is it the Horde like to yell? That's right. "Victory or death!"

Where is Garrosh now, the living embodiment of that slogan?

[Traveler Voltin]

Horde fanboys expect exactly that, becaus Sylvy's their collective waifu.


What is it the Horde like to yell? That's right. "Victory or death!"

I guess that comes with an asterisk?

And I find it hilarious that you're playing the "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THINGS FROM BOTH SIDES?" card in a post that only attacks Alliance fans.

Victory or death is an ORC saying not a horde one.