Pre-patch cinematics [spoilers] (duh)

[Deleted]

The Alliance understood the retreat horn. However, a horn does not explain reasons for retreat. Words do. Do you honestly think just because a retreat horn is sounded you no longer need to communicate using words? As Katchii said earlier, there are several ways of communication in this world, so at least try to use one of them.

Absolutely no. Horns were used for orders in our history for millenia. The Roman Army even had specific horn units just for that purpose alone.

[Lunaprika]

Alliance fanboys will do everything to put Sylvanas' decision under bad light. They just relentlessly moan about everything because in their mind we are baddies and they are good. That's called mind-blindness.

[dez1216]

All I have to say is as someone who plays both alliance and horde, I am having a really hard time deciding which to play this expac. Varian's death was epic and crushing and I want to play ally to avenge him, but I'm really interested in Sylvanas' warchief storyline. Argh, decisions!

[Frozen Death Knight]

Absolutely no. Horns were used for orders in our history for millenia. The Roman Army even had specific horn units just for that purpose alone.

Nothing I said contradicted that. Having a horn for retreat and having the armies understand what the horn means do not change that the specific reasons for retreat can not be interpreted by those sounds.

Do you honestly believe the Roman senate would have accepted that their commanders used a retreat horn to explain why they had to retreat on the senate floor by blowing in it? Because that is how ridiculous this conversation has become to justify why the Horde can't bother using more communication tools other than a horn to prevent another faction war during one of the largest demonic invasions ever.

[lockybalboa]

The horde are so cowardly in this battle, feel like deleting my only horde toon. Disgusting cowards

[bledgor]

The Alliance thinking they were betrayed is beyond fucking dumb. Like do they just assume Vol'jin is talking a nap somewhere? No they just assume that Slyvannas betrayed them, killed Vol'jin and every other Horde leader is magically okay with this including Thrall, a lifelong buddy of Vol'jin. How the Legion hasn't crushed us yet is beyond my understanding.

[Katchii]

You know, i don't think its bad writting, in the end, why would Genn or Jaina trust whatever Sylvanas says (We have had wars in RL for way less)

Which is a fair point, but that's not how it's being written. The Alliance is simply assuming that the Horde abandoned them (which as I stated is weird because they heard the horn, but have no idea what it means). If there was communication and the Alliance leadership decided to ignore it or didn't believe it for whatever reason, that would be decent writing. But there was no communication and the animosity is simply because of a childish assumption...oh we're here on an island completely overrun by the Burning Legion and both our forces have suffered losses and can barely hold our ground, there's no other reason for them to retreat except to stab us in the back! Right....

[Deleted]

Nothing I said contradicted that. Having a horn for retreat and having the armies understand what the horn means do not change that the specific reasons for retreat can not be interpreted by those sounds.

How many years the Alliance and the Horde have been at odds and sometimes allied by now? I mean, both factions have spec ops teams, they have reports of each other, including how each side communicates.

Either way, it's still a moot discussion because Varian's reaction tells us that he knew what the horn sound meant.

Do you honestly believe the Roman senate would have accepted that their commanders used a retreat horn to explain why they had to retreat on the senate floor by blowing in it?

Roman commanders didn't answer to the Senate on the Senate floor. The centurions hardly made such mistakes because tactical retreats were accepted in the Roman military tactics. Such viri militare would be considered as a good veteran for the use of the manipular tactics.

[Ielenia]

Obviously watching the very same archers retreat immediately after that signal wasn't enough to connect the dots because Alliance leaders suffered brain damage.

You do know that the same event could be construed as a signal to simply call back the archers and leave the Alliance leaders deal with the Demons on their own, right?

[bufferunderrun]

anyway i don't really like those events because it feel like blizzard make you lose on purpose, i got invited by a friend group and we were killing demons like barren boars just aoeing them down until 3 ship fired an unavoidable finger of god into us to forcefully end the scenario.
Anyway since we had lost that battle of thing are going to unfold after that?

[Deleted]

anyway i don't really like those events because it feel like blizzard make you lose on purpose

That's the entire point of the event. For the Horde and the Alliance lose against the Legion.

[Mehrunes]

You do know that the same event could be construed as a signal to simply call back the archers and leave the Alliance leaders deal with the Demons on their own, right?

You do know that we see demons arriving where the Dark Rangers left from literally seconds later, right? But I guess it's still not enough to realize the demons broke the Horde's defenses. These demons just teleported right next to ridge or something. The crew of the gunship arriving at the same time as the Horde retreated also couldn't see not just the ridge but the entire Horde area now swarming with demons.

[Ielenia]

Then the alliance are to dumb to live.

"Oh, surely the mortal enemies we have been fighting against for generations in countless wars won't betray us and leave us to die in a crucial moment!" (/sarcasm)

That signal could easily be interpreted as "time to leave the Alliance to die."

[Deleted]

"Oh, surely the mortal enemies we have been fighting against for generations in countless wars won't betray us and leave us to die in a crucial moment!" (/sarcasm)

That signal could easily be interpreted as "time to leave the Alliance to die."

By Genn and Jaina, the warhawks. Other Alliance leadership reacted otherwise.

[Mehrunes]

I did not move the goalposts at all. The entire point is that just because you understand the sound of a horn meaning retreat does not mean that it will mean the same thing to everyone involved. Words matter here. Use them. A horn does not explain everything and your insistence that it does is borderline ludicrous.

What does it matter if the horn won't mean the same thing to everyone involved if by your own admission the Alliance got its meaning nontheless? Whoopty doo, maybe the farmer from your video wouldn't get it. Varian did. We see it in the video. You confirmed it. You're squirming at this point.

[Traveler Voltin]

here is a new spin.
a messenger is sent to explain things which distracts the alliance, which allows Gul'dan so summon the fel reaver on top of the alliance.

still think sending a messenger is a good idea?

[Ielenia]

The Alliance didn't knew of? Then why Varian instantly understood the meaning of the horn?

Varian "instantly understood" it? Are you a mind reader? You have the power to read fictional characters' minds? Are you even watching the same cinematic everyone else in the world is watching? Because Varian's only words about it were: "No... She wouldn't..." At no point he mentions anything about the Horde retreating instead of simply betraying them and leaving them to die.

It was Genn that assumed the worse of the retreat.

Judging by Varian's expression, I imagine he reached the same conclusion as Genn, only he reacted with shock and surprise while Genn expressed it with anger.

- - - Updated - - -

By Genn and Jaina, the warhawks. Other Alliance leadership reacted otherwise.

Really? Care to tell me where in the cinematic we see Jaina and the other Alliance leaders others than Mekatorque? (Who, btw, shows up only to summon the ship then he doesn't show up again in the cinematic).

Stating, as fact, that Varian 'instantly understood' what the horn meant, that the Horde wasn't betraying them, is very disingenuous.

[Deleted]

Are you a mind reader? You have the power to read fictional characters' minds? Because Varians only words about it were: "No... She wouldn't..." At no point he mentions anything about the Horde retreating instead of simply betraying them and leaving them to die.

Did I even talked about the reason of the retreat? All I said is Varian understood that the horn was a retreat order, that's all.

Judging by Varian's expression, I imagine he reached the same conclusion as Genn, only he reacted with shock and surprise while Genn expressed it with anger.

Of course he reached the same conclusion as Genn, that the Horde retreated.

Not even once I talked about the reasons behind the retreat. Just that it was Genn that assumed betrayal.

- - - Updated - - -

Really? Care to tell me where in the cinematic we see Jaina and the other Alliance leaders others than Mekatorque? (Who, btw, shows up only to summon the ship then he doesn't show up again in the cinematic).

In Stormwind. The cinematic isn't the end of all the event.

[Mehrunes]

Really? Care to tell me where in the cinematic we see Jaina and the other Alliance leaders others than Mekatorque? (Who, btw, shows up only to summon the ship then he doesn't show up again in the cinematic).

He obviously meant their later reaction in Stormwind. And you can see Mekkatorque later on after they retreated to the gunship, holding to a barrier and saving some Alliance soldier with his robotic claw.

[Tojara]

While it won't be verified, I think (by his expressions) that Varian knew that the Horde retreated when he saw demons take over the ridge moments later. Which is why he called for a retreat in the first place as it was pointless to continue. The Horde couldn't hold the top and without the Horde covering, the Alliance was doomed to fail. What this tells me is that in the end, Varian was the only non retarded Alliance leader present but now he's dead now and you now have Genn thinking the Horde left the Alliance to die because he has the brain of a dog.

The battle up top looked really pathetic from a Horde standpoint. Thrall looks like he tripped and needed Baine to tie his shoelaces and the other Horde leaders aside from Sylvanas looked completely useless.

We need them Hellscream boys back. A few iron stars here and there, mixed with some mana bombs and the Legion would have been crushed!

Jokes aside I liked it and obviously it's meant to stir controversy in addition to making us feel like we lost something. The broken shore event had pretty dire ramifications to which we haven't seen before in WoW. When has it ever looked like we lost badly? Wrathgate we only lost Bolvar and Saurfang Jr, but it wasn't like the LK won there, he had to retreat as well because that plague owned everything. Meanwhile on Broken Shore you see forces dying all over the place with prominent lore figures actually dying, while one of the main bads effectively disenchants the Alliance leader into fel dust (Gul'dan confirmed enchanter). The LK by comparison seemed like a cartoon villain, especially with the plot revealed at the end (to let us basically win the entire time so he could make us his army) by losing every single piece of territory and advantage he had over an entire continent.

Ultimately I think what's going to happen with Sylvanas is that she's going to die this expansion as well. I have a feeling she's going to be redeemed by the Valkyr into actual life (not undeath) and brought back to her High Elf state, only to actually die later for good (which would be fine with her because in this death there would be peace, not emptiness like she saw when she "died" in Silverpine).