Alliance vs Horde wounds reopened over a misunderstanding?

[randomnamegenerator16]

Which is funny, because it's the Alliance's video that shows Alliance leaders seeing that Horde positions got swarmed by army of demons moment after they retreated. Whatever could have forced them to retreat /s

But there's more! It's also the Alliance video that shows the timeline of the gunship's arrival better. And it's through it that we learn it arrived pretty much at the same time as the Horde was routed. Which would mean that its crew could see not just the ridge Alliance leaders saw below, but the entire plateau and how it swarmed with demons as the Horde retreats. Obviously the Horde left the Alliance to die because that was their plan all along.

I don't see a reason for you to argue with those alliance fanboyish whiners. They are oblivious to facts.

[Disreali]

It was also expected that the Alliance victims who believe Blizzard spits in their faces would come here in swarms to vomit out their regurgitated bullcrap about Sylvanas waifu.

Sorry if it hits too close to home.

Yeah, because Horde never retreated before. They are all suicidal maniacs and it's not those who surrender that are seen as dishonorable. Obviously after you retread you can never achieve a victory. Because reasons.

I just find it hilarious that Hordies are calling Varian's heroic sacrifice "stupid" when it was pretty much the platonic ideal of how an honourable Horde warrior should go out.
You want to talk about blinders? Everyone's got them. Both sides of the playerbase.

Because it's just the Alliance fans that seem to have blinders on their heads.

It's extremely funny watching you try to pass yourself off as this guy who can just cut through the bs. You're just as much an angry faction-biased pissant as anyone on the Alliance side (myself includes) you spend your time ranting at.

But there's more! It's also the Alliance video that shows the timeline of the gunship's arrival better. And it's through it that we learn it arrived pretty much at the same time as the Horde was routed. Which would mean that its crew could see not just the ridge Alliance leaders saw below, but the entire plateau and how it swarmed with demons as the Horde retreats. Obviously the Horde left the Alliance to die because that was their plan all along.

The gunship that was attacked by a giant demon, had most of its crew killed or severely injured, and left in the hands of an Alliance commander who has his own past reasons to hate Sylvanas? Yeah, wonder why that intelligence never got back to Alliance command.

[Deleted]

I just find it hilarious that Hordies are calling Varian's heroic sacrifice "stupid" when it was pretty much the platonic ideal of how an honourable Horde warrior should go out.

Actually, I play majorly Alliance and I consider all the death in the Broken Shore stupid because the bad tactical decision of pressing the attack after seeing that something was very wrong.

[Disreali]

Actually, I play majorly Alliance and I consider all the death in the Broken Shore stupid because the bad tactical decision of pressing the attack after seeing that something was very wrong.

I wasn't addressing you. Wyrt was who I had in mind specifically.

Anyway Varian's death made sense in that he needed to take the giant demon out so that the gunship could escape. Once he's in that situation, surrounded by demons, he pretty much has to go out fighting.

As for the invasion in general...both sides were acting on faulty intelligence.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course this is over a stupid misunderstanding. Varian wouldn't see the hordes position from below, he couldn't see the unending army of demons. he didn't hear vol'jin give the command for her to lead the horde to safety, and pushed on by Genn vilifying sylvanas more just added to it.

Anyone with common sense would see the situation from both sides and understand there was no victory for either of them if they stayed, Gul'dan said it that the legions army was unending, so how the fuck does anyone expect either side to win in that situation?

The alliance fanboy mindset of 'well the horde should have sacrificed themselves to give Varian more time' is what I've come to expect from this community, but seeing doesn't make it any less cringeworthy. If it were Sylvanas and the horde on the ground and Varian and the alliance on the hill, and Varian did what sylvanas did, then it would have been perfectly fine and the alliance fans would expect sylvanas to give the hordes lives up so the alliance can escape.

So sick of this faction bias crap, when you can SEE WHATS HAPPENING ON BOTH SIDES.

On a less snarky note...

This is the problem with WoW lore discussion. We, the players, see everything. We know Sylvy's retreat was the right call. We know Genn and Jaina are letting their old grudges get in the way of common sense.
From an IC perspective though? The Alliance doesn't know why Sylvy retreated (and any attempts to claim they should know are fighting against the all powerful author intent).

So are we going to discuss this as fans watching a full, two-sided story unfold? Or are we going to treat it like real history/current events where we only discuss things from viewpoints those we identify with have? Both are valid, but they don't mix well. Especially not online, when you can't easily discern tone and intent from a written post.

[Deleted]

Jaina is a good character but let's not go down that road. Why isn't she fighting at the broken shore??? Where is she in all this?

Was wondering this as well, where she was in the animation? It would have ended the same. Jaina tp the alliance on the ship. The giant grabs the ship.
Genn yells: Get us out of here Jaina teleport everyone off this ship to safety!
Jaina: I NEED TIME!!! The Demons are disrupting my teleportation.
Genn: There is no time!!
Varian: Looks........jumps.

I wish they never did anything faction war, especially because they never gave alliance their payback moment (their bucket is full).......so they cant do it properly.
MoP was one of the best story-ambiance expansion if you ignore the faction war shit.
This is just opening it again especially with Sylvannas.

That said this was probably one of the best methods to create tension. No one's really at fault.
The horde were being overrun they needed to retreat.....eventhough their being cowards by orc standards.
Alliance already has enough bad experience with the horde and now see them abandoning the alliance with the death of varian.

Both sides are very understandable and the tension wasnt caused by direct agression towards the other.

Although i do have a feeling blizzard is making more of an attempt in almost every department, I do see the underligning flaws still present it's what i get out of the Sylvannas becoming warchief animation.

[Thetruth1400]

Just because your leader is wounded or killed in battle, is not reason to flee the battle entirely and leave your allies with no support, support which they rely on.

This is pretty much spot on. One troll fell. Yes, they were in a dire situation, but what they did was essentially abandon an entire half of the fighting forces just so they themselves could make a relatively toll free getaway.

A simple signal to the Alliance, which they could easily communicate with after having done the quest, would have taken all of a minute and quelled the entire problem. Literally anyone saying, "We're being over run and dropping back, you do the same!" would have turned it into a "Look we all drop back or die" instead of the "Screw you guys, the Horde is the only group that matters." that it was.

Even as Vol'Jin was passing out, he said, "Do not let the Horde die this day." which shows that he's just as much a segregationist from the "For Azeroth" as Jaina has been recently. What that shows is, he valued the Horde above the Alliance, and it wasn't a simple misunderstanding, but a "It doesn't matter what happens to the Alliance, the Horde must survive." mentality on his part.

[Deleted]

This is pretty much spot on. One troll fell. Yes, they were in a dire situation, but what they did was essentially abandon an entire half of the fighting forces just so they themselves could make a relatively toll free getaway.

It wasn't one troll. It was the entire Horde force that was in dire straits, overwhelmed and bombed by the fel carriers.

[Mehrunes]

Sorry if it hits too close to home.

It didn't hit anything. It only allows me to enjoy the irrelevant ranting of yet another pathological crybaby who have to stoop to such nonsense because they have nothing objective to stand on.

I just find it hilarious that Hordies are calling Varian's heroic sacrifice "stupid" when it was pretty much the platonic ideal of how an honourable Horde warrior should go out.

Can't say I've seen too many. His sacrifice was generally nicely received from both sides.

It's extremely funny watching you try to pass yourself off as this guy who can just cut through the bs. You're just as much an angry faction-biased pissant as anyone on the Alliance side (myself includes) you spend your time ranting at.

I'm not the one ignoring information present in my own faction's cinematic in a point about information in cinematics and ignoring said information, so you've got fuck all to claim this dogshit. Not counting your victimhood that is.

The gunship that was attacked by a giant demon, had most of its crew killed or severely injured, and left in the hands of an Alliance commander who has his own past reasons to hate Sylvanas? Yeah, wonder why that intelligence never got back to Alliance command.

It still leaves the troops on the grounds seeing the ridge. And unless you claim that everyone of the crew died, you have nothing here either. Also "the information of what Alliance saw on the ridge didn't reach the Alliance command because the commander was biased against Sylvanas" is such an amazing point against the Horde and in favor of the Alliance

[Trassk]

What is it the Horde like to yell? That's right. "Victory or death!"

I guess that comes with an asterisk?

And I find it hilarious that you're playing the "WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THINGS FROM BOTH SIDES?" card in a post that only attacks Alliance fans.

thats what an orc yells, Sylvanas isn't an orc incase you didn't know that.

[Disreali]

It didn't hit anything. It only allows me to enjoy the irrelevant ranting of yet another pathological crybaby who have to stoop to such nonsense because they have nothing objective to stand on.

Again with the name calling. I think I have it figured out. That's how you win arguments, isn't it? You Just call Alliance fans "liars," "crybabies," and "victims" with other insulting language until they just decide to leave so they don't have to deal with you.

As for the "Sylvanas is the Horde's waifu" bit, I find it funny. I get how a Horde fan could take offence to it, but your perpetual cycle of behaviour here makes it seem tame by comparison.

Can't say I've seen too many. His sacrifice was generally nicely received from both sides.

Read the thread. Wryt was who I had in mind.

I'm not the one ignoring information present in my own faction's cinematic in a point about information in cinematics and ignoring said information, so you've got fuck all to claim this dogshit. Not counting your victimhood that is.

You really like the victimhood bit doncha? I get that this is just a bunch of nerds (again, myself included) bs'ing about a video game, and as such it's probably best not to assume this is one of the "nicer" corners of the internet. Still? It probably deserves better than to have some perpetually angry edgelord spilling crap from alt-right image boards all over it.

And for the record...I have nearly as many Horde toons at max level as I do Alliance. I've done the Broken Shore with all of them. And hey, my last two avatars have been Blackhand themed.
So while I do tend to identify with the Alliance in most cases (I tend to be anti-having my home destroyed by alien rage monkeys) I do find the Horde's story engaging and interesting.
"My faction's cinematic." That's the problem right there.

It still leaves the troops on the grounds seeing the ridge. And unless you claim that everyone of the crew died, you have nothing here either. Also "the information of what Alliance saw on the ridge didn't reach the Alliance command because the commander was biased against Sylvanas" is such an amazing point against the Horde and in favor of the Alliance

You assume I'm trying to make "an amazing point against the Horde and in favour of the Alliance." I've said, in this thread, that Jaina and Genn are letting old grudges cloud common sense and that Sylvy's retreat was justified. So not sure where you're getting your assumptions from.
It's ok though. We all knee-jerk at times. Just take a cold shower. You'll feel better.

thats what an orc yells, Sylvanas isn't an orc incase you didn't know that.

Keen. Thanks for the pointer. Let me return the favour.

Don't insult Alliance fans in the same post you're trying to get people to get over the faction divide. Meeting people half way means just that. You've gotta come out to that metaphorical bridge too.

[Florena]

OOC it's clear the horde had no choice to retreat. The whole thing was a trap feom the start remember. It's not likely they would have won if the horde sacrificed itself.

IC from what you see as Alliance there's plenty of room to perceive it as a betrayal. Varian himself doesn't see the demons arrive until after the horde retreat. And it's not until after even that we get on the gunship. Plus the emotional factor of what they just went with and so many lost.

I do wonder why Sylvanas is a touch hostile to horde players in the quest text after though.

[Shibito]

Ahhh you alliance fanboys are idiots as usual always blaming the horde never looking past, oooh did poor varian die? He did it himself like the pointless king he was Anduin is a way better king now we need genn gaymane dead.

[Magical Mudcrab]

That could be, you know, because Horde scenario ends with Legion's ships arriving to fuck them over. Unless you want to claim the Horde had some of radar or tracking devices on these ships, it's hard to account for them.

The Horde cinematic ends with Sylvanas riding away on a ship.
Sylvanas made the decision to leave after seeing that the the Horde forces were decimated by the demons coming through the portal they were fighting at. That's a complete and utter lack of awareness on the Horde's part.
There is literally no Legion ships in the Horde cinematic.

Retreating isn't betrayal. It's impossible to send a runner down a goddamn cliff. Sounding the horn was enough of a warning and was understood by Varian just fine.

Retreating is indeed betrayal if you are doing so at the risk of your allies destruction. If you leave your friends to die, you are most definitely betraying them.
Sorry, I should have known that in a world saturated with magic, where mortals are capable of teleportation, flight, and other fantastical feats, that sending someone to alert the Alliance from atop a cliff is impossible.
Yes, the call was understood by Varian. However, he Horde immediately retreated and didn't forewarn the Alliance -- the Alliance hearing the horn was entirely incidental. This is why I mocked the Horde's awareness of the situation, the Horde wasn't paying attention to their own forces and needed to go into a full retreat because they were being decimated.

*Note: Them being pushed back is not a valid excuse for abandoning the Alliance as they did, they should have constantly surveyed their situation and acted accordingly, rather than only taking the time to check the flow of the battle when their leaders were falling before the Legion.

[Disreali]

Can't say I've seen too many. His sacrifice was generally nicely received from both sides.

Ahhh you alliance fanboys are idiots as usual always blaming the horde never looking past, oooh did poor varian die? He did it himself like the pointless king he was Anduin is a way better king now we need genn gaymane dead.

Well then.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Where is Garrosh now, the living embodiment of that slogan?

You act as though you've demeaned Garrosh, but he did pretty well with that ideology.

[Sluvs]

Well, even if they asked Sylvanas and she answered honestly, I'm sure Genn and/or Jaina would call bullshit in your story, mainly when Sylvanas has a Bad Rep attached to her name.

[Necroofeelya]

I agree with OP on the whole "misunderstanding" thing. I mean, realistically that shouldn't happen. In reality the horde should have told the alliance (after the fact) look we had to dip the hell out or we where toast. I am not saying the alliance should be okay with it. They would still be pissed as hell!
But, Nothing right away in the lines of "You retreated on us! Grrr time to invade orgrimmar no exceptions no explanations!" Its like the alliance gets T'ed off from the smallest dumb things the horde does and decides immediate warfare is the answer.

Now, don't take what I said the wrong way. I love the faction war and it is the second main part to the game other than the lore of the world.
I just want the factions to fight over some valuable cause though.
Sticking to themes such as alliance wanting to kill orcs because ones may say they brought the burning legion to azeroth again. Or wanting to kill the undead because well, undead are just not socially acceptable in the alliance lmao

and the horde fighting back to defend their outcasted people and for their spot in azeroth.
Idk of the top of the head thoughts that are just meant for the example.

[Deleted]

You act as though you've demeaned Garrosh, but he did pretty well with that ideology.

And then he was defeated in a hole and died in Nagrand, all alone. One and half year of "I was defeated again! Now I want the world!" hardly is doing "pretty well".

[Mehrunes]

Again with the name calling. I think I have it figured out. That's how you win arguments, isn't it? You Just call Alliance fans "liars," "crybabies," and "victims" with other insulting language until they just decide to leave so they don't have to deal with you.

As for the "Sylvanas is the Horde's waifu" bit, I find it funny. I get how a Horde fan could take offence to it, but your perpetual cycle of behaviour here makes it seem tame by comparison.

You don't get to cry about insults when you open with your inane waifu crap. And the fact that you needed to open with that to substitute for actual arguments does say a lot about your post.

Read the thread. Wryt was who I had in mind.

Damn, one person. Now compare it to people saying all kinds of shit about the Horde.

You really like the victimhood bit doncha? I get that this is just a bunch of nerds (again, myself included) bs'ing about a video game, and as such it's probably best not to assume this is one of the "nicer" corners of the internet. Still? It probably deserves better than to have some perpetually angry edgelord spilling crap from alt-right image boards all over it.

So you're telling me the part of the playerbase who constantly repeats that Blizzard spits in their faces every expansion and shits in their cereal is not acting in a victimized way? May need to check your definition of victimization then.

"My faction's cinematic." That's the problem right there.

I was only contrasting it to the earlier point about not watching the other faction's cinematic.

You assume I'm trying to make "an amazing point against the Horde and in favour of the Alliance." I've said, in this thread, that Jaina and Genn are letting old grudges cloud common sense and that Sylvy's retreat was justified. So not sure where you're getting your assumptions from.
It's ok though. We all knee-jerk at times. Just take a cold shower. You'll feel better.

There is an entire minute of the video dedicated to showing what the retreat looked like from the Alliance perspective and people still expect Genn, Jaina and the rest of the Alliance that was present there to know what is happening on a plateau behind a cliff and not understanding this is a preplanned lure into death.

Of course! The "why don't you watch the other side's video?" is only a valid argument when a Horde fan says it.

By following the context of that exchange perhaps.

The Horde cinematic ends with Sylvanas riding away on a ship.
Sylvanas made the decision to leave after seeing that the the Horde forces were decimated by the demons coming through the portal they were fighting at. That's a complete and utter lack of awareness on the Horde's part.
There is literally no Legion ships in the Horde cinematic.

Scenario, cinematic. What's the difference /s

Retreating is indeed betrayal if you are doing so at the risk of your allies destruction. If you leave your friends to die, you are most definitely betraying them.

And the alternative is getting destroyed themselves. So not dying for the Alliance is betrayal. Amazing theory you got here.

Sorry, I should have known that in a world saturated with magic, where mortals are capable of teleportation, flight, and other fantastical feats, that sending someone to alert the Alliance from atop a cliff is impossible.

Because fall damage doesn't exist or something. And the horn wasn't signal enough because reasons.

Yes, the call was understood by Varian. However, he Horde immediately retreated and didn't forewarn the Alliance -- the Alliance hearing the horn was entirely incidental. This is why I mocked the Horde's awareness of the situation, the Horde wasn't paying attention to their own forces and needed to go into a full retreat because they were being decimated.

They'd have to be deaf not to hear the horn.

*Note: Them being pushed back is not a valid excuse for abandoning the Alliance as they did, they should have constantly surveyed their situation and acted accordingly, rather than only taking the time to check the flow of the battle when their leaders were falling before the Legion.

And the Alliance shouldn't have forced the Horde to divide their army in two and have one side focus on helping the Alliance because the only ranged troop they brought was Jaina. After getting their asses handed to them in Cataclysm precisely because of spreading their forces too thin they could have thought ahead themselves.

Well then.

Two then. That's like more people than there are demons in the Burning Legion. Now count the people calling Horde cowards for not pulling endless army out of their asses.

[Berethos08]

But, Nothing right away in the lines of "You retreated on us! Grrr time to invade orgrimmar no exceptions no explanations!" Its like the alliance gets T'ed off from the smallest dumb things the horde does and decides immediate warfare is the answer.

Jaina and Genn do at this point...they've been through some pretty rough stuff recently, some of the roughest from things the Horde was involved in. Tensions from those two have likely been at the breaking point for a while now and just needed a bit of a push...

And when you have what is clearly meant to be a situation where one side isn't fully aware of the situation with the other side (well, to most of Blizzard's intent is clear, there's a few that still believe their own interpretation trumps the intent of the creator, the poor sods) mixed with anger and grief from losing a king and friend?

Shouldn't be a surprise that Jaina and Genn want to take vengeance on the Horde while the cooler heads (even Anduin, in the midst of the grief of losing his own father, is keeping a cool head about it in the face of it all) counsel focusing their efforts entirely on the Legion and working with anyone who shares that goal, despite what happened at the Broken Shore...as they likely realize that they don't have enough information to make any condemning judgments, least of all when facing annihilation.