Russia says it has foiled Ukrainian 'terror attack' plot in Crimea, two Russians died

[Berengil]

Actually terror acts against your own territory are arguably a lot more despicable then "fair reprisal toward someone you're fighting".

And saying that FSB would get one border guard and one of their own killed in some kind of "false flag" against Ukraine is laughable conspiracy theory.

Putin definitely would order something like that. He's a neo-fascist thug who is motivated only by his desire to maintain power.

[Azadina]

Did you know that you bring 0 value to the discussion ?

Better than your contribution, which is in the negative.

[Deleted]

"Fair reprisal"

So Russia is holding Ukraine responsible for the latest incident. By that standard can Ukraine do "Fair reprisal" toward Russia then for that hapen in eastern Ukraine?

In fact the opposite is true - by trying to do terror acts in Crimea Ukraine acknowledges that Crimea is no longer Ukrainian.

How did you twist it to that, tell that to IRA, ETA, PLO, Lehi, they all did questionable actions in the name that there land was occupied.

[Cerilis]

*holds up micro* And if you look now to the right, you can see a perfect example of mmo-chan's local russkis jerking each other off over self-fed propaganda and the fearmongering claims of anti-russian tendecies.
Mercy upon the poor, brave souls that even now urge to resist the endless flow of bullshit made up of anti-western agitation and inferiority complexes, by holding up the standard of reason, to the left.

[Shalcker]

Putin definitely would order something like that. He's a neo-fascist thug who is motivated only by his desire to maintain power.

Wow, apparently he also controls Ukrainian armed forces?

So this entire Ukrainian situation, including Western sanctions, is part of diabolic Putin's plan to maintain power in Russia and provide boogie-men abroad to stifle internal dissent?

[Deleted]

Just Ukraine trying to stir shit before elections (Russian, US, possibly both).

...using their actual armed forces members on Russian territory.

Allegedly. I don't really trust the FSB as an unbiased source of information. I don't like Ukraine at all, im somewhat versed on the conflict, but Russia is in no way better or more reliable.

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So this entire Ukrainian situation, including Western sanctions, is part of diabolic Putin's plan to maintain power in Russia and provide boogie-men abroad to stifle internal dissent?

No.
Partly, yes.

[Shalcker]

So Russia is holding Ukraine responsible for the latest incident. By that standard can Ukraine do "Fair reprisal" toward Russia then for that hapen in eastern Ukraine?

That's exactly what i'm talking about. You could argue that what Ukrainians planned was "fair reprisal" against Russia in Russian Crimea; it's wrong but still understandable position.

If they actually planned terror attacks against part of their own country, while being on official employ of government of that country, it's quite a bit harder to justify.

How did you twist it to that, tell that to IRA, ETA, PLO, Lehi, they all did questionable actions in the name that there land was occupied.

Were IRA in government employ? I think not.

[Halicia]

Allegedly. I don't really trust the FSB as an unbiased source of information.

A national intelligence organization is about as biased as it gets.

I don't care what country you're talking about, if the intelligence organization doesn't... at the minimum... filter the information they let out so that the unfavorable is hidden and the favorable is spun for maximum rewards... they simply aren't doing their job.

In fact, this makes the premise of this story even more dubious. If it were a credible attack, there's generally more profit to be had by not revealing the facts as to what was compromised (and how).

[Deleted]

So this entire Ukrainian situation, including Western sanctions, is part of diabolic Putin's plan to maintain power in Russia and provide boogie-men abroad to stifle internal dissent?

No Putin miss-calculated, he did expect a new Georgian War, a fast war then he bully a weak border country to political concessions, and no significant western reaktion.

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If they actually planned terror attacks against part of their own country, while being on official employ of government of that country, it's quite a bit harder to justify.

Like the green men?

[Deleted]

A national intelligence organization is about as biased as it gets.

I don't care what country you're talking about, if the intelligence organization doesn't... at the minimum... filter the information they let out so that the unfavorable is hidden and the favorable is spun for maximum rewards... they simply aren't doing their job.

In fact, this makes the premise of this story even more dubious. If it were a credible attack, there's generally more profit to be had by not revealing the facts as to what was compromised (and how).

Yeah I don't really care for what any intelligent organization says when it comes to the politics and policies of their own country. Especially not in regards to their own enemy.

[Shalcker]

No Putin miss-calculated, he did expect a new Georgian War, a fast war then he bully a weak border country to political concessions, and no significant western reaktion.

Or perhaps he expected sane approach and was met with insane responses of people who wanted their country to go down the drain just so that it wouldn't be in "Russian sphere".

...and in the end despite all their "sacrifices" they'll remain in Russian sphere.

Like the green men?

"Green men" didn't plan terror attacks (and weren't happening "on Russian soil"); in fact they were deployed exactly to prevent any possible provocation of that sort.

[SidFwuff]

You're stretching it quite a bit.

"Fair reprisal" has nothing to do with "Crimea still being part of Ukraine"; and certainly Donbass/Luhansk are a lot more worthy reasons for "reprisals" then Crimea (where just one person died in something somewhat related to Crimean takeover).

In fact the opposite is true - by trying to do terror acts in Crimea Ukraine acknowledges that Crimea is no longer Ukrainian.

That's not what you said though.

You said "Actually terror acts against your own territory". If Kiev is behind this, as you've suggested, how is Crimea their "own territory" if Crimea belongs to Russia and not Kiev?

How is that "stretching it" at all? (Let alone "quite a bit").

You know, I used to give you the benefit of the doubt, despite the many people that criticized you. Jumping on the chance to attack Ukraine for attacking its "own territory" and then accusing me of "stretching things" so you can try and have it both ways- and that Kieve is attacking Russian territory...

You've just lost any respect I had for you.

[Shalcker]

A national intelligence organization is about as biased as it gets.

I don't care what country you're talking about, if the intelligence organization doesn't... at the minimum... filter the information they let out so that the unfavorable is hidden and the favorable is spun for maximum rewards... they simply aren't doing their job.

In fact, this makes the premise of this story even more dubious. If it were a credible attack, there's generally more profit to be had by not revealing the facts as to what was compromised (and how).

This started several days ago, on weekend.

They only released information now - when they actually did interrogations, arrests, and expert evaluations, and are reasonably certain there is noone left who was involved and did not escape already.

[SidFwuff]

lets liberate our people by blowing them up! what a great idea!! yee no wonder 95% of people voted to leave.

If Crimeans are still (Western) Ukrainians, then they haven't left yet, have they?

[Shalcker]

That's not what you said though.

You said "Actually terror acts against your own territory". If Kiev is behind this, as you've suggested, how is Crimea their "own territory" if Crimea belongs to Russia and not Kiev?

Exactly! Yet officially Kiev denies it.

How is that "stretching it" at all? (Let alone "quite a bit").

You're saying that Crimea is Russian territory. As do i. Ukrainians disagree, but they act like it's true. Which is the thing i'm pointing out.

There are two ways of looking at it.
If you go with Official Ukrainian version, then entire situation is them planning terror attack on their own territory (temporarily occupied).
If you go with Russian version, then it's terror attack by forces in employ of Ukrainian government on Russian soil (which works as casus belli).

I can argue on either. Choose one.

You know, I used to give you the benefit of the doubt, despite the many people that criticized you. Jumping on the chance to attack Ukraine for attacking its "own people" and then accusing me of "stretching things" so you can try and have it both ways- that Kiev is attacking Russia...

You've just lost any respect I had for you.

Oh, i'm so wounded that i lost respect of someone that i don't remember ever engaging in conversation before! So much is lost!

You don't seem to understand how multiple views on situation can be examined simultaneously. You've said that i claimed that Crimea is Ukrainian, yet i only said that Ukraine considers Crimea Ukrainian and nothing about my own view on Crimean affiliation.

[May90]

So, you have no instances of known lies, it's all "just because it was named KGB when Soviet Union still existed".

Yeah, thought so.

I'm not surprised that burden of proof is a foreign concept for you.

[Stelio Kontos]

Hilarity. If America or the UK claimed to have stopped a domestic terror attack, everyone would be congratulating them. Russia does it and it must be Russian lies/propaganda.

What idiocy.

[zorkuus]

If you go with Official Ukrainian version, then entire situation is them planning terror attack on their own territory (temporarily occupied).
If you go with Russian version, then it's terror attack by forces in employ of Ukrainian government on Russian soil (which works as casus belli).

I can argue on either. Choose one.

Holy loaded argument batman!

I go with the one where they say they haven't planned any terror attacks.

[Shalcker]

Holy loaded argument batman!

I go with the one where they say they haven't planned any terror attacks.

Obviously they say that.

As would anyone who had their operatives captured while loading stash of explosives on territory of other country...

Yet if they really did it those two options seems to be only possibility.

[zorkuus]

Yet if they really did it those two options seems to be only possibility.

That's where your loaded argument comes into play. You've already arrived at a conclusion and are trying to build a case around it.