is all specs viable in Mythic+ ?

[Vorpalspork]

I've never seen out AoE knockdown save a wipe. Ever. A small chance of a knockdown does not make a bad AoE ability good. And I agree on Boomys and Destro locks also have this same builder/spender model. It is a bad design and all of these specs need to be redesigned to something that actually works.

[chairmanmao]

Don't worry I'm sure boom/destro will pick up a 4th(?) complete overhaul in 8.0.

[Gunwolf]

In regards to Elemental Shamans though... they've been really ignoring them for most of the beta. I remember a LOT of nerfs happening right before the pre-patch hit, that were completely unjustified for ele, while enhancement went unchanged for a really long time (and even then they somewhat nerfbatted the shit out of us right before the pre-patch hit).

I'm pretty sure that they'll buff ele shamans again, like they always have to nowadays... it's frustrating for any elemental shaman main to just be completely trash tier for higher raids (and mythic+ in that regard), just to get buffed weeks or even months later into the expac, because blizzard thought they were "probably" "secretly overpowered".

This is how it is for Shaman in every xpac.... we usually don't get our big buffs till a month or two after release. That's just how it goes, I have gotten used to it by now and expect as much. And they (most likely) WILL buff Shaman, a DPS pass on all classes is bound to happen once people start to get to 110 and they have larger numbers and feedback to work with.

So that said, if the class/spec is fun to you then stick with it. If you enjoy the mechanics, don't sweat the damage so much just yet, wait till the first round of buffs and then start complaining if it is too low. Mechanic wise I have heard pretty good things about Shaman all around, I know Enhance is fun and not sure bout Elem as much but they seem pretty good from what I saw. The AOE seems to be an issue, and if a simple buff to stuff like CL or EQ will fix it then thats fine, but if its a mechanics issue like not having enough burst aoe then hopefully they come up with a solution.

[Taeron]

I've never seen out AoE knockdown save a wipe. Ever. A small chance of a knockdown does not make a bad AoE ability good. And I agree on Boomys and Destro locks also have this same builder/spender model. It is a bad design and all of these specs need to be redesigned to something that actually works.

Why is EQ bad? Its an AOE spender like starfall and rain of fire, but it has added utility in the knockdown.
I wouldnt underestimate the EQ stun - on its own it reduces tank damage-taken at the very least (which could save a wipe) and has a chance to interrupt spellcasts too. With the AOE stun on top, Ele sham is in a good place for add control which definitely saves wipes.

You claim builder/spender models do not work. Instead of simply stating it, is there any evidence (or even reasoning) you're going to provide for this claim?
Apologies if you have in the past, I'm simply curious and cbf sifting through previous posts haha

[Vorpalspork]

Why is EQ bad? Its an AOE spender like starfall and rain of fire, but it has added utility in the knockdown.
I wouldnt underestimate the EQ stun - on its own it reduces tank damage-taken at the very least (which could save a wipe) and has a chance to interrupt spellcasts too. With the AOE stun on top, Ele sham is in a good place for add control which definitely saves wipes.

You claim builder/spender models do not work. Instead of simply stating it, is there any evidence (or even reasoning) you're going to provide for this claim?
Apologies if you have in the past, I'm simply curious and cbf sifting through previous posts haha

It's just a logic argument. I'm sure when more logs start coming out in Legion after release, it'll show our low AoE. By definition, if we cannot use our AoE until we build resources, we will do less AoE than a class that does not have to ramp up like a builder/spender. The ONLY way a builder/spender can be competitive is if the build up is fast enough so that you can spend your resources while the mobs still have a lot of health AND the damage of the spender is sufficient to make up for the lost time. It's a simple 1+1=2 forumla. However, Shaman have a long build up time and our new EQ does LESS damage than it did prior to the Legion changes, so we have a 0.5+0.5=1, not 2 (assuming 2 is damage for a class without the build up time requirement). In Beta, I have seen plenty of 5 man runs where the Elem Shaman doesn't even bother with EQ because by the time it can be dropped, the mobs don't have enough health left to live for the 10 seconds it does damage.

Basically, a builder/spender model is by default inferior to a non-builder/spender, unless the buildup is really fast and the damage after buildup is high and done over a short period of time - see the Havoc DH for a model that works. The DH only needs at most 2 instant cast attacks to build up the resources for an instant AoE attack with high damage. It also has instant, no build up required AoE. The Shaman has only low damage chain lightning with a cast time and then EQ which is also low damage and slow to outuput the damage. The artifact helps a bit because you can use Stormkeeper to buff chain lightning, but that has a 1 min CD, so you can output decent AoE briefly every minute or so.

Also, since our legendaries are really not good, we will fall even further behind once those are factored in.

[Lucrece]

Yes, but as things stand, people will bring a fire mage for the good AoE and ST damage, as well as Time Warp. From looking around Beta, there are no shortage of fire mages! I doubt a short interrupt will be enough to get shaman a spot ahead of a mage, or almost any other caster, really.

As for EQ becoming viable AoE when mob health increases, I guess the jury is out on that. EQ damage isn't that great, and there will always be a large ramp up, especially to drop multiple EQs, so I'm really not sure if mob health will ever be high enough to allow us to equal out with more bursty AoE specs. I'd much rather Blizz just drop this failed builder/spender model for AoE damage and make it more fun and competitive with classes that don't have to ramp up. I don't think "class fantasy" should be horrible AoE ramp up.

Mages don't bring an aoe 5 sec stun or stampeding roar either. Windrush totem is an underrated amazing utility for these timed runs.

[Taeron]

It's just a logic argument. I'm sure when more logs start coming out in Legion after release, it'll show our low AoE. By definition, if we cannot use our AoE until we build resources, we will do less AoE than a class that does not have to ramp up like a builder/spender. The ONLY way a builder/spender can be competitive is if the build up is fast enough so that you can spend your resources while the mobs still have a lot of health AND the damage of the spender is sufficient to make up for the lost time. It's a simple 1+1=2 forumla. However, Shaman have a long build up time and our new EQ does LESS damage than it did prior to the Legion changes, so we have a 0.5+0.5=1, not 2 (assuming 2 is damage for a class without the build up time requirement). In Beta, I have seen plenty of 5 man runs where the Elem Shaman doesn't even bother with EQ because by the time it can be dropped, the mobs don't have enough health left to live for the 10 seconds it does damage.

Again, I've tested Ele in the beta and in live and I'm not seeing low AoE. Yes we have low "burst" AoE due to the builder/spender model, but you cant say "we will do less AoE (overall) than a class that does not have to ramp up like a builder/spender". Eg I smash fury warriors, ret pallies, mages (as a few examples) in AoE and they have no resource to build. In burst AoE they will surge ahead, but once I can build up a few stacks of EQ I overtake very quickly. With content on farm where things die fast, yes it will feel bad, but on progression line mythic+ (where it matters) where mobs are alive for longer, it seems very strong so far. IMO if Ele is a little on the low side, it will just be a tuning issue.

Basically, a builder/spender model is by default inferior to a non-builder/spender, unless the buildup is really fast and the damage after buildup is high and done over a short period of time - see the Havoc DH for a model that works. The DH only needs at most 2 instant cast attacks to build up the resources for an instant AoE attack with high damage. It also has instant, no build up required AoE. The Shaman has only low damage chain lightning with a cast time and then EQ which is also low damage and slow to outuput the damage. The artifact helps a bit because you can use Stormkeeper to buff chain lightning, but that has a 1 min CD, so you can output decent AoE briefly every minute or so.

Also, since our legendaries are really not good, we will fall even further behind once those are factored in.

Again, it would only be inferior if the DPS (numbers) weren't there. AoE has 2 sides, burst and sustained. If we are inferior in burst but superior in sustained, that's not such a bad thing. No one also seems to mention Path of Flame and the free lava bursts that generates. Lava burst procs being instant cast, high maelstrom generation - very handy. Aftershock refunds maelstrom which makes it very easy to layer EQ (especially if you can finish a trash pack with a fair amount of maelstrom left over, makes it easy to move to the next pack ready to roll. Also, Liquid magma totem, another instant cast AOE.

Do the best with the tools you have, know the class intimately, be dynamic with talent choices on a 'per-encounter' basis and any ele shaman will do fine.

On a side note, I've always seen a certain appeal in playing a perceived underdog class and running a raid/dungeon and just stomping the other DPS (especially FOTM classes). The shock and praise is cool

[Gaucho-]

I think Elemental Shaman will be quite viable for mythic+ dungeons at all levels, but especially at the higher ones with more HP. They dont only bring more utility than in WoD, but also some nice gimmick in form of EQ stuns. I did something like 100 mythic+ dungeons, with different specs across all classes, to be specifc - combined with months worth of experience in the alpha/beta. This said, Elemental is my favourite spec and I'm currently (Legion at 110) enjoying them more in mythic+ than in any raid.

[Murderdoll]

Wouldn't you expect Ele's aoe viability to increase as mob hp goes up, letting you drop more EQ and proc more static overloads?

Yes and no. Invariably, other peoples AOE also scales through power. If mobs are dieing very quickly, your potency is gone. This is what we have seen all throughout WoD. Classes that had sustain AoE just didnt bother.

Ele will be a desirable caster for the simple fact you bring heroism (mage being the alternative), an aoe ranged stun, purge, fairly strong sustained aoe against larger HP mob packs, your aoe applies knockdowns which helps tanks immensely, and you also bring stampeding roar via windrush totem.

Ele is also the caster with the shortest interrupt, even shorter than the interrupt cd's of most melee.

Shaman probably wont take Wind Rush. Because of its range limitations its a bit niche.

How useful are those other tools? A stun and sustain AoE. Melee have stuns and Sustain AoE is inferior in every way to burst.

Purge, usually gets one usage a raid tier.

Any job you can do, someone will do better. That is the point. Hell, Enhance does all your jobs better and once again the saving grace is that Ele is a ranged class.

How does it make players feel that you are only there because you arent a melee?

[Lucrece]

Enhancement does not come even close to doing the aoe of an ele shaman with stormkeeper and power of the maelstrom CL procs on mythic+ dungeon pulls.

Windrush will be used just like stampeding roar is (they have the same range requirement, 10 yards), not for the encounters themselves but for the dungeon skips and reducing travel time as all challenge mode record runs took advantage of.

The only melee DPS with an aoe stun are windwalkers and demonhunters, and neither of those bring heroism or any utility of note, just pure damage.

[Cheze]

as usual, nobody know's wtf they mean when they say 'viable.'

[Synadrasa]

Enhancement does not come even close to doing the aoe of an ele shaman with stormkeeper and power of the maelstrom CL procs on mythic+ dungeon pulls.

Windrush will be used just like stampeding roar is (they have the same range requirement, 10 yards), not for the encounters themselves but for the dungeon skips and reducing travel time as all challenge mode record runs took advantage of.

The only melee DPS with an aoe stun are windwalkers and demonhunters, and neither of those bring heroism or any utility of note, just pure damage.

DKs and wars both have aoe stuns

[Lucrece]

DKs and wars both have aoe stuns

DK's only have an aoe stun when popping Pillar of Frost (major dps cooldown), remorseless winter as a baseline stun is gone and now you have to be a frost DK and talent into winter is coming to have an aoe stun.

Warrior tanks have an aoe stun.

[Deleted]

What I've heard is that Enha and Ele will be fotm for mythic+, the spec you'll play depends on pulls. Capacitator + Hero is huge boost already. Enha & Ele cleave/AoE is pretty strong. I'm actually considering to reroll my main balance druid to enha/ele shaman only because I want to play fotm mythic+ dps and we already have uhdk and bm hunter in our group.

[Murderdoll]

Enhancement does not come even close to doing the aoe of an ele shaman with stormkeeper and power of the maelstrom CL procs on mythic+ dungeon pulls.

If the mobs do not live long enough you dont have the AoE either. Thats the entire fucking point.

In theory, Ele has one of the better AoEs currently. How has that worked out for you the entire expansion?

[Lucrece]

If the mobs do not live long enough you dont have the AoE either. Thats the entire fucking point.

In theory, Ele has one of the better AoEs currently. How has that worked out for you the entire expansion?

No, we're not talking EQ. Storm Keeper and Power of the Maelstrom are tied to chain lightning, which is retarded burst AoE. Go watch Naesam's videos on youtube, he can spike sometimes above 800k DPS, beating out the DH's he was running mythics in.

Enhancement does not hold a candle to ele in the aoe department, burst or sustained.

[Taeron]

No, we're not talking EQ. Storm Keeper and Power of the Maelstrom are tied to chain lightning, which is retarded burst AoE. Go watch Naesam's videos on youtube, he can spike sometimes above 800k DPS, beating out the DH's he was running mythics in.

Enhancement does not hold a candle to ele in the aoe department, burst or sustained.

Does Power of the Maelstrom also affect chain lightning?
If so, add the legendary that stacks 5% extra damage (cumulative) on additional chain lightning targets, makes it even better.

[ehxy]

Theoretical not factual because have you seen what the mages are doing?

[Sodia]

Electric Discharge, 15% CL damage
Master of the Elements, 12% overload damage
Static Overload, 10% chance for all CL hits to cause overload
The Ground Trembles, 15% EQ damage
Volcanic Inferno, LvB has a chance to cause a fissure to deal some small AoE damage

and most imporantly

Stormkeeper, 1min cd, 3 next CL's cause 200% extra damage and summon the lightning elemental (Fury of the Storms) for 8 seconds.

So, not 3 arti traits, but 7. No other class/spec has this much buffed AoE damage from artifact.

yes the numbers look so nice ) but the reality not...... After countless MC+ on Beta with maxed out Artefact and 860+ gear plus 1 Legendary .... We are fuct.. We are Below others in AOE by 10 to 50% ... Depends on how fast the ads die , we sux in quick aoe burst .

[Hivey]

Pack 1 - Stormkeeper
Pack 2 - Magma Totem
Pack 3 - Stormkeeper available again?

Would that work? That is, if Magma is any good (no idea) an Elemental would have a CD boost available every pack. Am just throwing ideas out, don't shoot me