Alliance vs Horde wounds reopened over a misunderstanding?

[Magnagarde]

Of course! The "why don't you watch the other side's video?" is only a valid argument when a Horde fan says it.

Some on here try to push their interepreation on how the Alliance was on a suicide mission, while in fact both factions went on a suicide mission to begin with because they both entered the conflict together, with the hopes of being victorious.

The Alliance started retreating once they realized that the Horde has stopped fighting/started running away from the battle which they entered together. The Alliance was in a much more unfavourable position than the Horde due to the fact that the Burning Legion's frontman on Azeroth, Gul'dan, was preventing their escape. The Alliance retreat resulted with Varian's death because the Horde couldn't do their part in the battle they entered together and started running away.

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The Horde cinematic ends with Sylvanas riding away on a ship.
Sylvanas made the decision to leave after seeing that the the Horde forces were decimated by the demons coming through the portal they were fighting at. That's a complete and utter lack of awareness on the Horde's part.
There is literally no Legion ships in the Horde cinematic.



Retreating is indeed betrayal if you are doing so at the risk of your allies destruction. If you leave your friends to die, you are most definitely betraying them.
Sorry, I should have known that in a world saturated with magic, where mortals are capable of teleportation, flight, and other fantastical feats, that sending someone to alert the Alliance from atop a cliff is impossible.
Yes, the call was understood by Varian. However, he Horde immediately retreated and didn't forewarn the Alliance -- the Alliance hearing the horn was entirely incidental. This is why I mocked the Horde's awareness of the situation, the Horde wasn't paying attention to their own forces and needed to go into a full retreat because they were being decimated.

*Note: Them being pushed back is not a valid excuse for abandoning the Alliance as they did, they should have constantly surveyed their situation and acted accordingly, rather than only taking the time to check the flow of the battle when their leaders were falling before the Legion.

I agree. You can't have everything. You either get to save your skin and live with being branded a traitor or you fall with honor defending yourself. Retreating was the right option in order to save themselves indeed, but then the Horde have to understand why the other side hates them because their sudden retreat resulted in casualties and sacrifice on the other side.

The problem is that the Horde fans want the Horde to retain both; they want their faction to keep their "honor" and not be dubbed traitors from the Alliance side in character, when in fact the entire faction ran away from a fight they entered together with the Alliance, resulting in a chaotic Alliance retreat which saw their leader die. Needless to add, we know out of character that they didn't manage to pull their weight at all; they all got battered up and fled, leaving their Alliance allies to the dogs.



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On a less snarky note...

This is the problem with WoW lore discussion. We, the players, see everything. We know Sylvy's retreat was the right call. We know Genn and Jaina are letting their old grudges get in the way of common sense.
From an IC perspective though? The Alliance doesn't know why Sylvy retreated (and any attempts to claim they should know are fighting against the all powerful author intent).

So are we going to discuss this as fans watching a full, two-sided story unfold? Or are we going to treat it like real history/current events where we only discuss things from viewpoints those we identify with have? Both are valid, but they don't mix well. Especially not online, when you can't easily discern tone and intent from a written post.

How dare you expect the characters to be properly in character during and after the cinematic? They must be omniscient at all times, especially Genn and Jaina, those filthy fools that are mad after only losing a kingdom and relative each at the hands of the Horde. One or two kingdoms sacked, plagued and bombed.. it must clearly be forgotten and forgiven. Its not like the Horde and the majority of the races that comprise it have ever invaded or destroyed Alliance kingdoms before... right? Right?

Seeing your "allies" abandon their position on a cliff above you when you need them the most, after bridging a historical mistrust of oneanother, is clearly not the reason enough to feel betrayed in character. I mean seriously, don't they have YouTube?

[StaeleAilar]

On tumblr complaining about the horde patriarchy?

um... Jaina is on the broken shore.. and fighting.. unless you did a different version to myself...

As to the OT: The conflict will escalate because Genn already has reason enough to despise Sylvannas and her underhanded and dirty tactics, of which they *appear* to be employed AGAIN from the alliance point of view in the scenario when they are, again from their own perspective, abandoned to die by the horde. I have little doubt Jaina will play some kind of role in any potential escalations of the conflict at this point, at least for the immediate future, however after having lost their king, i don't think Genn or Jaina would be interested in talking to any of the horde leaders based upon it along with past events brought about by horde hands.

From the horde standpoint, it would make some sense to attempt to appeal to the, at this point in time, more level headed leaders within the alliance, perhaps Anduin, Velen, Tyrande etc and organise some sort of summit or something to discuss what happened and why. But, like the rest of us, we will all have to wait and see how it plays out in the game.

[Magnagarde]

Jaina and Genn do at this point...they've been through some pretty rough stuff recently, some of the roughest from things the Horde was involved in. Tensions from those two have likely been at the breaking point for a while now and just needed a bit of a push...

And when you have what is clearly meant to be a situation where one side isn't fully aware of the situation with the other side (well, to most of Blizzard's intent is clear, there's a few that still believe their own interpretation trumps the intent of the creator, the poor sods) mixed with anger and grief from losing a king and friend?

Shouldn't be a surprise that Jaina and Genn want to take vengeance on the Horde while the cooler heads (even Anduin, in the midst of the grief of losing his own father, is keeping a cool head about it in the face of it all) counsel focusing their efforts entirely on the Legion and working with anyone who shares that goal, despite what happened at the Broken Shore...as they likely realize that they don't have enough information to make any condemning judgments, least of all when facing annihilation.

Where are the dragons when you need them?

The bronze dragonflight should show a vision to Genn and Jaina in order to show them what happened on the plateau the Horde was on. I guess that isn't convenient to Blizzard though.

[Mehrunes]

The problem is that the Horde fans want the Horde to retain both; they want their faction to keep their "honor" and not be dubbed traitors from the Alliance side in character, when in fact the entire faction ran away from a fight they entered together with the Alliance, resulting in a chaotic Alliance retreat which saw their leader die. Needless to add, we know out of character that they didn't manage to pull their weight at all; they all got battered up and fled, leaving their Alliance allies to the dogs.

Sounding retreat when the signal is heard across the entire battlefield is not treason. And the Alliance retreats the moment after Horde does. Even though the demons from the ridge couldn't get to them. And needed the Horde to clear the skies for them because they didn't have their own archers (and the gunship couldn't do that because reasons). Plus the Horde had to fight on two fronts because of the above. Doesn't sound like the Alliance was pulling their weight either.

How dare you expect the characters to be properly in character during and after the cinematic? They must be omniscient at all times, especially Genn and Jaina, those filthy fools that are mad after only losing a kingdom and relative each at the hands of the Horde. One or two kingdoms sacked, plagued and bombed.. it must clearly be forgotten and forgiven. Its not like the Horde and the majority of the races that comprise it have ever invaded or destroyed Alliance kingdoms before... right? Right?

There's no omniscience needed for the Alliance to know why the Horde retreated no matter how many times you repeat it.
-The Horde had the same reasons to fight and have stronger history with the Legion (with exception of Draenei but they weren't really present), giving them more motivation to fight, they had no reason to leave.
-Demons roll over to the position held by Horde's archers immediately after Horde's retreat. Archers stay in the back. Enemy was close enough to Horde's back line. Horde's positions were broken.
-Huge-ass spaceships with huge-ass projectiles warped in and bombarded the Horde.
-Alliance had aerial view of the whole battlefield.
-Their enemy is an endless army of demons so it's not really unexpected to get overrun. Especially since both sides comment on the demon force being much larger than anticipated earlier in the scenario.
-Gul'dan had an ace in his sleeve that he used just like that on retreating force. It's not impossible that the Legion used something like that against the Horde when the actual fight was still going on and the Alliance couldn't see it, giving the Horde the benefit of the doubt (though in this case the ace in the hole were the spaceships, so the Alliance knew of them anyway).

[mugutu]

Lolwhut?
When do the alliance lose anyone? they have lost 1 character come legion while the horde has lost 3 leaders, not to mention an expansion when we travel back in time to kill off all the old lore characters that belonged to the horde, and killing zuljin off in another raid.

Siege of orgrimmar wasnt the horde facing their consequences?

We lost Rhonin in a book. We lost Tirion in a scenario. We lost Maraad in a leveling zone. We lost Varian because of the selfishness of the Horde.

Siege of Orgrimmar could have been considered facing consequences if the city was actually burned to the ground and Garrosh's head was rotting on a sword outside Stormwind Keep.

[Mehrunes]

We lost Rhonin in a book. We lost Tirion in a scenario. We lost Maraad in a leveling zone. We lost Varian because of the selfishness of the Horde.

One of these characters was neutral. One was neutral and exiled by the Alliance. As for Maraad, he's not as important of a character and Horde lost their fair deal of secondary ones.

[Donald Hellscream]

Just because your leader is wounded or killed in battle, is not reason to flee the battle entirely and leave your allies with no support, support which they rely on.

They were literally being overrun though, I mean had they stayed the outcome would've been that everyone died, okay Varian needed the rangers to clear the skies for the gunship but since the horde were being overrun I doubt it would have changed the outcome.

[Disreali]

You don't get to cry about insults when you open with your inane waifu crap. And the fact that you needed to open with that to substitute for actual arguments does say a lot about your post.

First off, lol at you of all people chastising someone for making a post that leads with an insult.
Secondly? I lead with it because you have consistently treated every Alliance poster you come across in a H vs A thread in this subforum like crap. So I felt, and feel, no obligation to consider what you may or may not find upsetting. And it's clear the "Sylvy is the Horde's waifu" thing's upset you.

Damn, one person. Now compare it to people saying all kinds of shit about the Horde.

Two then. That's like more people than there are demons in the Burning Legion. Now count the people calling Horde cowards for not pulling endless army out of their asses.

First one, now two.
Anyway I've already said that Sylvy's retreat was justified. I'm not criticizing either the Horde or Alliance for the IC events of the Broken Shore. Sylvy made the right call to save her people. As did Varian. His sacrifice allowed the gunship to escape.

My point was to call out Horde fans who criticize Varian for making that sacrifice out on their hypocrisy. Considering that it's what Horde warriors' dreams are made out of. Just look at how the Horde fanbase treats Grom's sacrifice. Grom? HERO! Varian? Stupid!
You want to talk about faction fanboys with blinders? There you go.

So you're telling me the part of the playerbase who constantly repeats that Blizzard spits in their faces every expansion and shits in their cereal is not acting in a victimized way? May need to check your definition of victimization then.

I think you have a warped idea of "victimization" as a concept, where you belittle anyone who feels as if the term justifiably applies to them.
It's also a matter of being kicked so many times that a twitch from a foot causes an overreaction.
Is there a culture of Alliance victim-hood? Yes. Is it understandable? Yes. Cata was rife with Horde bias. MoP and WoD were mostly just fine when it came to faction imblance, though stuff like losing Theramore and Netherguard Keep so soon after all the loses in Cata just made things worse. Factor in the BlizzCon stuff (devs joking about the Alliance battle cry being "Not in the face!", the CorpseGrinder bit,
Chris Metzen admitting that the writers may find the Horde more fun to write for)? At best it becomes Blizz losing the benefit of the doubt among Alliance fans. At worst? Everything becomes a conspiracy. You can't kick a puppy for an entire expac and expect it to be completely trustworthy afterwards.
Again, MoP and WoD were solid as far as faction balance went. Legion looks to be along the same lines (I've seen both Horde and Alliance players play the "bias!" card over Dalaran, which truly means we've hit the sweet spot). As someone who leans Alliance? I'm more or less ready to forgive Blizz for Cata's missteps. Some aren't though. And given that I still feel a certain sting about the losses of Southshore, Theramore, and Neatherguard? I understand that...for now.

I was only contrasting it to the earlier point about not watching the other faction's cinematic.

It's still indicative of a problem. You're viewing things with blinders. It's all "for the Horde!" for you, and it manifests itself in treating any Alliance fan you have a disagreement with like crap.

By following the context of that exchange perhaps.

Calling out Horde fans for their hypocrisy is not the same thing as criticizing the actions of the Horde in-game
Again, you seem to be assuming I'm criticizing Sylvy for her actions, or letting Genn and Jaina off the hook for theirs. Nope, not at all.

[Mehrunes]

First off, lol at you of all people chastising someone for making a post that leads with an insult.

Again, pay attention to chronology.

Secondly? I lead with it because you have consistently treated every Alliance poster you come across in a H vs A thread in this subforum like crap. So I felt, and feel, no obligation to consider what you may or may not find upsetting. And it's clear the "Sylvy is the Horde's waifu" thing's upset you.

Do list the Alliance in this thread alone like crap before you graced us with that wisdom. I'll be waiting with baited breath fer sure. Wait, no, I won't. At worst I was a bit sarcastic towards Magnagarde. Here's the deal, I play nice with the Alliance just fine unless they start pulling that bullshit first. For some reason the likes of you or KrazyK always feel the need to preemptively add such bullcrap first and then wonder why people react negatively to it. You know, like in the previous thread in which you cried about how evil I was towards you when I was polite at the start until you stopped to be.

First one, now two.

Yes, I go through posts in order. Not exactly what's the problem with that.

My point was to call out Horde fans who criticize Varian for making that sacrifice out on their hypocrisy. Considering that it's what Horde warriors' dreams are made out of. Just look at how the Horde fanbase treats Grom's sacrifice. Grom? HERO! Varian? Stupid!
You want to talk about faction fanboys with blinders? There you go.

They are wrong. There you go. Personally I loved Varian's sacrifice. I only said there aren't that many of them and that there are many more Alliance players saying the Horde betrayed them not just in Alliance perspective (which is already mental gymnastics because the Legion spaceships at the end of Horde sccenario are humongous), but betrayed them period. Among many other similar things.

I think you have a warped idea of "victimization" as a concept, where you belittle anyone who feels as if the term justifiably applies to them.

Considering I'm talking to someone who subscribes to the idea that Blizzard shits on the Alliance and defended it in the last thread on this topic, I sure do have a warped idea of victimization.

Is there a culture of Alliance victim-hood? Yes. Is it understandable? Yes. Cata was rife with Horde bias. MoP and WoD were mostly just fine when it came to faction imblance, though stuff like losing Theramore and Netherguard Keep so soon after all the loses in Cata just made things worse. Factor in the BlizzCon stuff (devs joking about the Alliance battle cry being "Not in the face!", the CorpseGrinder bit.

Understandable? All was fine and dandy in Vanilla, but fixing Alliance being favored in terms of amount of storylines and zones is somehow Blizzard kicking the Alliance playerbase in their collective balls. Oh no, the Alliance didn't get an intro to Twilight Highlands because Blizzard finished Horde storylines first and then ran out of time. That's why we have unfinished... Horde storylines in Cataclysm... Alliance lost Nethergarde? Let's ignore Horde losing their first outpost on Azeroth. It has no value after all. And Blizzard making jokes? The bastards.

It's still indicative of a problem. You're viewing things with blinders. It's all "for the Horde!" for you, and it manifests itself in treating any Alliance fan you have a disagreement with like crap.

And yet there are many who I haven't treated like crap. Weirdly enough it's those who who don't go everywhere moping how Blizzard killed their parents, how people like different characters than they do so only because they wank to them, how people supposedly claim Sylvanas or other Horde characters haven't done anything wrong which weirdly enough shows up only in the posts of the Alliance players in question or just regurgitate the same wrong arguments that have been wrong for almost a decade and haven't gotten any less wrong despite having been shown sources in the past over and over again. Including outright denying Word of God about Sylvanas not mind controlling the resurrected undead like certain individuals.

Calling out Horde fans for their hypocrisy is not the same thing as criticizing the actions of the Horde in-game
Again, you seem to be assuming I'm criticizing Sylvy for her actions, or letting Genn and Jaina off the hook for theirs. Nope, not at all.

Where have I said anything about you criticizing Sylvanas in-game in this thread?

[Disreali]

Do list the Alliance in this thread alone like crap before you graced us with that wisdom. I'll be waiting with baited breath fer sure. Wait, no, I won't. At worst I was a bit sarcastic towards Magnagarde. Here's the deal, I play nice with the Alliance just fine unless they start pulling that bullshit first. For some reason the likes of you or KrazyK always feel the need to preemptively add such bullcrap first and then wonder why people react negatively to it. You know, like in the previous thread in which you cried about how evil I was towards you when I was polite at the start until you stopped to be.

Oh I must have missed that.
When were you polite to me? Was it between you mocking my points with nonsense like "hurr durr" or calling me an ablest, lying asshole with reading comprehension issues? You never once tried to actually have a reasonable, polite discussion with me. In fact you came in after I had just concluded a reasonable, polite discussion with another Horde fan and stirred crap up because you just had to get your pot shots in.
Hell, in that last thread I said I was willing to let bygones be bygones. You ignored that, which is fine, and then came into this interaction swinging.

Look, I'm here to discuss the lore of Warcraft. And you're obviously knowledgeable (I even agree with you in the Pally vs DK thread). As I said, I'm willing to apologize and let bygones be bygones. I would *like* to be able to discuss this stuff without getting into a back and forth with you at every opportunity.

They are wrong. There you go. Personally I loved Varian's sacrifice. I only said there aren't that many of them and that there are many more Alliance players saying the Horde betrayed them not just in Alliance perspective (which is already mental gymnastics because the Legion spaceships at the end of Horde sccenario are humongous), but betrayed them period. Among many other similar things.

You sure do like to complain about how put down the Horde faction is by Alliance fanboys. More than I would expect from someone who has such issues with Alliance fanboys playing the victim card.

Considering I'm talking to someone who subscribes to the idea that Blizzard shits on the Alliance and defended it in the last thread on this topic, I sure do have a warped idea of victimization.

I think all of Cata, with the bombing of Theramore tacked on at the end of it/start of MoP went a long way to making a lot of Alliance players jaded. Overly so? Absolutely, in some cases.

Understandable? All was fine and dandy in Vanilla, but fixing Alliance being favored in terms of amount of storylines and zones is somehow Blizzard kicking the Alliance playerbase in their collective balls.

I think there were better ways of correcting the Vanilla-WotLK imbalance than saying "the Horde just kicked the Alliance's ass."
Even that could have been tolerable if it wasn't followed by the next two expacs starting with the destruction of iconic Alliance settlements. You take the loses in Cata and you add Theramore and Neatherguard on top of that? A pattern begins to develop.

Oh no, the Alliance didn't get an intro to Twilight Highlands because Blizzard finished Horde storylines first and then ran out of time. That's why we have unfinished... Horde storylines in Cataclysm...

Such as? What Horde content was glaringly missing when compared to a parallel Alliance experience? The Horde invasion of the Twilight Highlands is epic. The Alliance's is pathetic.

Alliance lost Nethergarde? Let's ignore Horde losing their first outpost on Azeroth. It has no value after all.

Stonard was actually the first Horde settlement on Azeroth. And it's also a portal location for Horde magi. The Horde equivalent of Theramore. And it's still there while Theramore's a crater. Just saying.
As for Rockard....Rockard wasn't destroyed. It was retaken IIRC. Neatherguard's toast. And again, comes after losing Theramore and after the loses in Cata. You can't blame Alliance players for noticing a pattern.

And Blizzard making jokes? The bastards.

I think it's a problem when you're a publicly traded company, your biggest product is a MMORPG based around two factions that each contain roughly half of the consumer base, and you routinely ridicule one faction at the expense of another.

And yet there are many who I haven't treated like crap. Weirdly enough it's those who who don't go everywhere moping how Blizzard killed their parents, how people like different characters than they do so only because they wank to them, how people supposedly claim Sylvanas or other Horde characters haven't done anything wrong which weirdly enough shows up only in the posts of the Alliance players in question or just regurgitate the same wrong arguments that have been wrong for almost a decade and haven't gotten any less wrong despite having been shown sources in the past over and over again.

I pulled the "waifu" bit out as a response to you essentially mocking me and implying I lacked reading comprehension skills (an insult I do take personally given my job). You fired the first shot there bud. Not me.
As I said I'm willing to apologize and let bygones be bygones if you're willing to accept it.

Including outright denying Word of God about Sylvanas not mind controlling the resurrected undead like certain individuals.

I'm not sure exploiting confusion following resurrection is a morally clear thing either

Where have I said anything about you criticizing Sylvanas in-game in this thread?

You said...

Also "the information of what Alliance saw on the ridge didn't reach the Alliance command because the commander was biased against Sylvanas" is such an amazing point against the Horde and in favor of the Alliance

...implying that I was condemning the Horde's in-game actions and letting the Alliance off the hook for their foibles. Which isn't the case at all.

[LazarusLong]

Some on here try to push their interepreation on how the Alliance was on a suicide mission, while in fact both factions went on a suicide mission to begin with because they both entered the conflict together, with the hopes of being victorious.

The Alliance started retreating once they realized that the Horde has stopped fighting/started running away from the battle which they entered together. The Alliance was in a much more unfavourable position than the Horde due to the fact that the Burning Legion's frontman on Azeroth, Gul'dan, was preventing their escape. The Alliance retreat resulted with Varian's death because the Horde couldn't do their part in the battle they entered together and started running away.

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I agree. You can't have everything. You either get to save your skin and live with being branded a traitor or you fall with honor defending yourself. Retreating was the right option in order to save themselves indeed, but then the Horde have to understand why the other side hates them because their sudden retreat resulted in casualties and sacrifice on the other side.

The problem is that the Horde fans want the Horde to retain both; they want their faction to keep their "honor" and not be dubbed traitors from the Alliance side in character, when in fact the entire faction ran away from a fight they entered together with the Alliance, resulting in a chaotic Alliance retreat which saw their leader die. Needless to add, we know out of character that they didn't manage to pull their weight at all; they all got battered up and fled, leaving their Alliance allies to the dogs.



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How dare you expect the characters to be properly in character during and after the cinematic? They must be omniscient at all times, especially Genn and Jaina, those filthy fools that are mad after only losing a kingdom and relative each at the hands of the Horde. One or two kingdoms sacked, plagued and bombed.. it must clearly be forgotten and forgiven. Its not like the Horde and the majority of the races that comprise it have ever invaded or destroyed Alliance kingdoms before... right? Right?

Seeing your "allies" abandon their position on a cliff above you when you need them the most, after bridging a historical mistrust of oneanother, is clearly not the reason enough to feel betrayed in character. I mean seriously, don't they have YouTube?

So retreating is a treason. Stalin and his barrier troops would be proud to share your arguments.

[Magnagarde]

So retreating is a treason. Stalin and his barrier troops would be proud to share your arguments.

Once again one of the omniscient crew kicks in.

I wrote numerous times in this thread how it is the Alliance perspective that they've been betrayed(and rightfully so) because someone who was in their position couldn't conclude anything else other than that they've been left to die. In the end, Varian had to sacrifice himself to save half of the Alliance leadership. That is how they see it in character and there is absolutely nothing out there in the cinematic which would make them think otherwise.

[Mehrunes]

Once again one of the omniscient crew kicks in.

I wrote numerous times in this thread how it is the Alliance perspective that they've been betrayed(and rightfully so) because someone who was in their position couldn't conclude anything else other than that they've been left to die. In the end, Varian had to sacrifice himself to save half of the Alliance leadership. That is how they see it in character and there is absolutely nothing out there in the cinematic which would make them think otherwise.

Care to address how omniscience is needed for them to see the things from the list in post #167 or is just repeating the bit about omniscience enough for you?

[PursueTheChase]

Honestly, Sylvanas' calling the retreat was the right call on the Horde side. Most of their numbers were dead, Thrall was beaten down, Baine was desperately trying to help him and Vol'jin took a spear through the chest (props to him for not dying on the spot). If they hadn't retreated, they'd have just perished in no more than a couple of minutes, and even those couple of minutes might not have been enough for the Alliance to stem the tide. What bothers me more is why the Alliance didn't begin the fight with the gunship to provide covering fire. A ship like that would've been huge help in the battle. But they are right to view the Horde's retreat as treason, due to not knowing the circumstances. Had it been Varian that had gotten stabbed, the Alliance would've definitely fallen back as well.

[Stardrift]

The alliance vs horde thing has always been shit and playground levels of childish in its formulaic pattern of making up reasons for both sides to hate each other, plots that would make most kids cartoons look mature in comparison.

This is just a very bland aspect of the story now, because we all know the story comes second to gameplay, the story is woven around the limited gameplay mechanics, so it doesn't surprise anyone anymore.

This is why I think Illidan was brought back and the illidari is essentially an offshot faction, because only characters that don't operate within the faction setting have any interesting story left in them.

Let me just say.. You're playing an 11 year old MMO. Why put that much effort into insulting a faction vs faction story? It's just.. Petty. A petty thing to get upset about lol.

[Trassk]

Let me just say.. You're playing an 11 year old MMO. Why put that much effort into insulting a faction vs faction story? It's just.. Petty. A petty thing to get upset about lol.

Perhaps that the issue thats never going to be resolved, the very nature of how this community thinks is based around the limited gaming mechanics that can't go anything beyond what it does now, and no matter how advanced the graphics get or how dynamic the lore becomes or improved gameplay, the game will always be limited to its own stationary limitations. This is why only having expansion after expansion instead of a name game ensures no real progression in an interesting way.

[Magnagarde]

Stonard was actually the first Horde settlement on Azeroth. And it's also a portal location for Horde magi. The Horde equivalent of Theramore. And it's still there while Theramore's a crater. Just saying.

As for Rockard....Rockard wasn't destroyed. It was retaken IIRC. Neatherguard's toast. And again, comes after losing Theramore and after the loses in Cata. You can't blame Alliance players for noticing a pattern.

It is funny how a few huts, wagons and tents are being compared to the likes of Theramore, Nethergarde and Bael Modan. People on here are literally comparing lore-significant cities and fortresses to encampments that are the remaining symbols of the Horde's shameful past, which were infact not destroyed, but readmitted into the Horde.

Rockard is part of the orcs' shameful history that was supposedly left behind. Why would it be brought up now? When the old Horde's actions are attributed to the new Horde by various characters, the specific crew kicks in here saying that it is not the same Horde. However, when they need to make a claim on some strip of land, they'll happily attribute the old Horde's forward onslaught outpost as property of the new Horde.

Unlike Rockard, which a town set up by a race that intended to invade Azeroth after destroying their own world first and bringing misery to whoever nice was still left there, Nethergarde was a symbol of Azeroth's valiant defense. Bringing these two into comparison is factually wrong.

[steelballfc]

Honestly, Sylvanas' calling the retreat was the right call on the Horde side. Most of their numbers were dead, Thrall was beaten down, Baine was desperately trying to help him and Vol'jin took a spear through the chest (props to him for not dying on the spot). If they hadn't retreated, they'd have just perished in no more than a couple of minutes, and even those couple of minutes might not have been enough for the Alliance to stem the tide. What bothers me more is why the Alliance didn't begin the fight with the gunship to provide covering fire. A ship like that would've been huge help in the battle. But they are right to view the Horde's retreat as treason, due to not knowing the circumstances. Had it been Varian that had gotten stabbed, the Alliance would've definitely fallen back as well.

in the rogue quest line it was shown that the SI:7 Report was wrong, the legion played with u all the time, the attack was doomed anyway, even if the Horde was not overwhelm with demons.

[Daedius]

Misunderstandings frequently make for good stories.

That show "Frasier" revolved around it and did it very well.

[Aquamonkey]

Once again one of the omniscient crew kicks in.

I wrote numerous times in this thread how it is the Alliance perspective that they've been betrayed(and rightfully so) because someone who was in their position couldn't conclude anything else other than that they've been left to die. In the end, Varian had to sacrifice himself to save half of the Alliance leadership. That is how they see it in character and there is absolutely nothing out there in the cinematic which would make them think otherwise.

Varian thought they were on the cusp of victory. The only thing they were counting on the Horde to do was clear the airspace, which the gunship did on its own. The Horde position that was overrun was way up in the cliffs away from the Alliance forces. It's not like new Legion troops suddenly popped up on top of the Alliance forces. If they were about to win and only needed the skies cleared. The skies were cleared without the Horde, they should have been fine to push their final assault.

It would be entirely different if air superiority going to the Legion fucked up the gunship they were calling in. But that didn't happen. Nothing changed in the immediate vicinity for the Alliance forces when the Horde retreated.