What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?(Invasion Spoiler)

[Vynny]

No, it wouldn't have. They should have retreated together, with Sylvanas' forces providing support until the Alliance force was save. Hell, Varian himself could have been saved by a Val'kyr had Sylvanas not made the decision to save only the Horde.



That really doesn't matter. You do not abandon your allies to save your own ass. If you need to retreat, inform your allies. Don't just leave. It's cowardice to the fullest. There's no strategy to it. The Horde chose for the survival of the Horde, not of Azeroth. Divided once more. Two dead leaders, one probably didn't have to had the Horde stayed a little longer to secure the save retreat of the Alliance.

The Horde: Victory or death! Lies.

To the first portion of your quote, if Sylvanas would've waited then the Horde would've been decimated. Thrall was on the ground being beaten down, Vol'jin was fatally wounded, and Baine was badly injured to where he couldn't fight anymore as well. Sylvanas was the only Horde leader left in fighting condition while Genn, Mekkatorque, Jaina, and Varian were all either lightly wounded or were otherwise in good fighting condition. So what you're saying is that the Horde should've sacrificed all of their leaders save for probably Sylvanas for the sake of possibly saving Varian, yeah good joke. That's by no means a reasonable expectation.

Now onto the second portion. The Horde and Alliance forces were working together, but they were by no means a military alliance. This means that they had very little recourse for long communication of battle plans, such as a coordinated retreat. If Sylvanas wanted to coordinate a tactical retreat with Wrynn then they would've needed either some form of long distance communication available which wasn't or the ability to send a messenger to Wrynn either back tracking and crossing a moat of fel lava or jumping down a deadly fall to relay the message. The point is that they were two individual forces working together, and that it's ridiculous to expect such a ragtag alliance to have that level of coordination. And before you say that she could've just shouted down to Wrynn, I would like to remind you that Gul'dan would hear that shout as well which means he could've summoned down that fel reaver preemptively in order to block their path of retreat.

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so much for lok'tar ogar lol

For Azeroth over Lok'tar Ogar.

[Aeula]

Her military target of a city got nuked by Garry while she was on her period and she's been pissy ever since.

[Deleted]

At the beginning of MoP she was garrisoning a sizable amount of Alliance troops in Theramore, so Garrosh bombed it, killing almost everyone she knew and loved. She obviously felt that she was betrayed by the Horde while in reality she betrayed Theramore's neutral position first by allowing Alliance troops to be garrisoned in Theramore which is right on Orgrimmar's doorstep.

During MoP she used the Kirin Tor to get the Bell of the Heavens to the Alliance, so Garrosh used the Sunreavers to steal it back from them which she saw as a betrayal even though she betrayed the Kirin Tor's neutrality first.

Basically, she became a basic bitch that doesn't seem to understand what it means to be neutral between two global superpowers and paid the price for it.

logic on mmoc? get out.

[Vynny]

Theramore was never really "neutral," it was always an alliance city. Also, in the book (I believe it was "Tides of War") the reason they dropped the mana bomb was to basically satisfy Garrosh's blood lust, it wasn't over the troops being garrisoned there.

No, it was always a neutral city. They had a truce with the Horde on the condition that Theramore would remain a sanctuary for the inhabitants and a trading port and nothing more, but in Cataclysm, it was turned into the launching point for every single Alliance invasion of the Barrens. They blatantly broke their truce and as such made themselves into not only a legitimate military target, but a priority as well since they were one of the main launching points for the Alliance's military actions in Kalimdor. You can't seriously expect the Horde to sit idly by as Theramore facilitated the invasion of a Horde land as important as the Barrens.

[WskyDK]

This just is the final nail in the coffin. Varian's coffin.

Coffin?


This is what Alliance leaders are going to be mourning around

[Shibito]

I guess you missed the bombing of Theramore and the purge of Dalaran

Purge of dalaran was her murdering blood elf civilians.

[Vynny]

Interesting twist on things

Not a twist, the truth.

Had Jaina not allowed the Alliance to garrison troops there and invade the Barrens through Theramore then Garrosh would've had no reason to attack it. Jaina didn't, the Truce was broken, and the Horde had a very strong reason to wipe the main launching point for the Alliance military campaign against the Horde off of the map.

Had Jaina not used the Kirin Tor to steal the Divine Bell (mixed up the name before) right from under the Horde then there would've been no reason to involve the Sunreavers who had access to the Kirin Tor. Again, Jaina betrayed her own neutrality first before the Horde made any action against her or the people she was leading. If she didn't want to honor the truces she had or the neutrality of the faction she lead then there was no reason for the Horde to honor those either.

[Stormdash]

I actually have. And it was still a cowardice retreat. You don't leave your allies to save your own ass. That's the very definition of being a coward.

This is just sheer ignorance.

The Horde's forces were fighting on two fronts, the Alliance weren't. What's more, the Horde's entire ranged support were not covering the Horde, they were covering the Alliance, which was only making it harder for the Horde infantry to hold the ridge.

The simple facts are these --

A) the invasion was objectively doomed to failure, whether characters knew it or not at the time. The portal could not be closed without the Pillars, period.
B) the invasion was subjectively failed at the time Sylvanas sounded the general retreat. They could not hold the ridge, and there was no reason to think that they could push through the collective boss history of demon NPCs even if there'd have been a point (which, in hindsight, all these characters will know there wasn't without the Pillars
C) frankly, both factions should have ordered a retreat at least once or twice earlier in that scenario.

[Vynny]

Unless the Horde quests and cinematics are completely different, all of this is totally wrong.

Theramore has always been an Alliance settlement.

The Divine Bell wasn't in Dalaran, it was in Darnassus, and the Kirin Tor weren't involved in obtaining it for the Alliance but the Sunreavers used Dalaran as a staging ground for their plot to steal it for the Horde.

You literally got everything wrong.

Theramore was a neutral city with a truce with the Horde. They broke that truce when they allowed Theramore to be used as a launching point for the Alliance's invasion of the Barrens. If they didn't want to be a military target for the Horde to attack then they shouldn't have allowed most of the Alliance invasions of Kalimdor to be launched from their city.

Jaina was the leader of the Kirin Tor. She was working with Darnassus to keep potential thieves out. What do you call it when a supposedly neutral faction is aiding 1 side of the conflict in securing a WMD? Oh yeah that's right, a breach of neutrality and a declaration of war. Again, Jaina betrayed her own neutrality first by picking sides. Once you do that, you're no longer neutral and as Leader of the Kirin Tor (as it says under her name plate during that quest), she should've known that her actions are synonymous with the actions of the Kirin Tor.

[Stormdash]

Theramore was a "neutral" city? When?

[Vynny]

Since when was Theramore neutral? I remember clearly that the Horde could invade Theramore and kill Jaina, or am I missing something here?

She's one of my favorite female characters in WoW, so this might sound biased but... I don't think she's being unreasonable at all to distrust the horde (even though not knowing what happened at the invasion), given they bombed her city to the ground, killing many friends of hers (Rhonin included). It was all good and comfy until Thrall stepped down as Warchief, Vol'jin did and Sylvanas is just inheriting Garrosh's mess.

They had a truce with the Horde that was based on Theramore remaining a sanctuary for Alliance citizens and a trading port, but that's it. Once the Alliance started using it as a military outpost to invade the Barrens then the truce was broken.

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Theramore was a "neutral" city? When?

They had a truce with the Horde which was dependent upon it remaining a sanctuary for Alliance citizens and a trading port. Once the Alliance started launching their invasion of the Barrens from Theramore then the truce was off.

[Stormdash]

They had a truce with the Horde that was based on Theramore remaining a sanctuary for Alliance citizens and a trading port, but that's it. Once the Alliance started using it as a military outpost to invade the Barrens then the truce was broken.

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They had a truce with the Horde which was dependent upon it remaining a sanctuary for Alliance citizens and a trading port. Once the Alliance started launching their invasion of the Barrens from Theramore then the truce was off.

Neutral means something pretty specific in WoW terms. Theramore was unambiguously militarized and fortified, and it had some tacit armistice with the Horde, but was also expanding its footprint. I don't defend Garrosh or his tactics, but Theramore was a legitimate military target, it wasn't Thal'darah or something.

[bloodmoth13]

Not a twist, the truth.

Had Jaina not allowed the Alliance to garrison troops there and invade the Barrens through Theramore then Garrosh would've had no reason to attack it. Jaina didn't, the Truce was broken, and the Horde had a very strong reason to wipe the main launching point for the Alliance military campaign against the Horde off of the map.

Had Jaina not used the Kirin Tor to steal the Divine Bell (mixed up the name before) right from under the Horde then there would've been no reason to involve the Sunreavers who had access to the Kirin Tor. Again, Jaina betrayed her own neutrality first before the Horde made any action against her or the people she was leading. If she didn't want to honor the truces she had or the neutrality of the faction she lead then there was no reason for the Horde to honor those either.

No its just a twist from what everyone else seems to think, i love it.

Man i wish garrosh were still around now, hes the hero that the horde needed, but not the one it wanted
w

[Dartz1979]

I love Jaina she's my fantasy babe

[frogger237]

Varian overestimated his chances, and died because of it, this isn't the hordes fault.

If you go by in game lore it does kinda seem like its the hordes fault, the horde scenario fighting up on the cliff seems pretty winnable and we coulda and shoulda been distracting guldan and trying to destroy the portal from behind. Also all the demons you fight are all melee creatures and the cliff is fall death height, they woulda took care of themselves trying to attack the alliance.

[Deathquoi]

Theramore was a neutral city with a truce with the Horde. They broke that truce when they allowed Theramore to be used as a launching point for the Alliance's invasion of the Barrens. If they didn't want to be a military target for the Horde to attack then they shouldn't have allowed most of the Alliance invasions of Kalimdor to be launched from their city.

Jaina was the leader of the Kirin Tor. She was working with Darnassus to keep potential thieves out. What do you call it when a supposedly neutral faction is aiding 1 side of the conflict in securing a WMD? Oh yeah that's right, a breach of neutrality and a declaration of war. Again, Jaina betrayed her own neutrality first by picking sides. Once you do that, you're no longer neutral and as Leader of the Kirin Tor (as it says under her name plate during that quest), she should've known that her actions are synonymous with the actions of the Kirin Tor.

Wrong, the truce ended in Cataclysm when the Horde invaded Ashenvale.

[shaunika123]

At the beginning of MoP she was garrisoning a sizable amount of Alliance troops in Theramore, so Garrosh bombed it, killing almost everyone she knew and loved. She obviously felt that she was betrayed by the Horde while in reality she betrayed Theramore's neutral position first by allowing Alliance troops to be garrisoned in Theramore which is right on Orgrimmar's doorstep.

During MoP she used the Kirin Tor to get the Bell of the Heavens to the Alliance, so Garrosh used the Sunreavers to steal it back from them which she saw as a betrayal even though she betrayed the Kirin Tor's neutrality first.

Basically, she became a basic bitch that doesn't seem to understand what it means to be neutral between two global superpowers and paid the price for it.

what? she started garrisoning troops because garrosh was LITERALLY Marching on theramore and has already captured northwatch

garrosh had the bomb way before jaina garrisoned anyone

also theramore was NEVER neutral, it just had a truce with the horde, but it was still an alliance settlement
garrosh wanted all of kalimdor to himself so he marched on them using whatever he could, he bombed the shit out of theramore filled with innocent civilians even though he killed a horde officer like 1 year before that for doing that exact thing

jaina had every right to be fucking pissed

then again, i thought she sort of calmed down at the end of War Crimes, but that's another story.

[McFrotton]

I actually have. And it was still a cowardice retreat. You don't leave your allies to save your own ass. That's the very definition of being a coward.

They were on two different front, fighting each on their side, yes horde abandonned their side, it did not directly affect alli side.

[Taeldorian]

The Horde was getting overrun and our leader was dealt a fatal blow. Varian should've hurried it up instead of sitting there bickering with Gul'dan. On top of that, we obviously didn't have the power to stop Gul'dan since he still had more demons and that giant Fel Reaver in reserve, so if the Horde would've stayed to die then both sides would've been wiped and Azeroth would've fallen right then and there.

Living to fight another day isn't cowardice, it's smart battle strategy when dealing with a losing battle.

That's not how that works, at all. If you're going to retreat and you're in charge of Anti air support, you let your ground troops know you're going to retreat before you actually do it so they have a chance to get out, or else you have exactly what happened during the Broken Shore.

Varian was still planning the assault when the horde was starting to retreat and that's where the Horde fucked up. They didn't give a warning to the ground troops which resulted in both factions being on completely different steps (Varian planning the assault while the horde was preparing to retreat). No Bueno, in terms of military strategy that was the worst possible way to retreat I've ever seen.

Nobody should have stayed and fought, but you need to tell your ground troops about the retreat so they can get out first or at least have a chance to get out, that's that. No matter what circumstances your under, you need to let them know way faster than the Horde actually did. Not really their fault since everyone was basically down, but it's dishonorable and flat out wrong (yes, legitimately wrong, not just subjectively) to leave your ground troops while you (the anti Air Force) retreat.

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They were on two different front, fighting each on their side, yes horde abandonned their side, it did not directly affect alli side.

Read the above ^

[sissywafflez]

That's not how that works, at all. If you're going to retreat and you're in charge of Anti air support, you let your ground troops know you're going to retreat before you actually do it so they have a chance to get out, or else you have exactly what happened during the Broken Shore.

Varian was still planning the assault when the horde was starting to retreat and that's where the Horde fucked up. They didn't give a warning to the ground troops which resulted in both factions being on completely different steps (Varian planning the assault while the horde was preparing to retreat). No Bueno, in terms of military strategy that was the worst possible way to retreat I've ever seen.

Nobody should have stayed and fought, but you need to tell your ground troops about the retreat so they can get out first or at least have a chance to get out, that's that. No matter what circumstances your under, you need to let them know way faster than the Horde actually did. Not really their fault since everyone was basically down, but it's dishonorable and flat out wrong (yes, legitimately wrong, not just subjectively) to leave your ground troops while you (the anti Air Force) retreat.

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I'm sorry, could you remind me again why in the fuck Sylvanas has to do anything more than sound that horn for Varian to know what's going on?



Read the above ^

I'm sorry, could you remind me again why in the fuck Sylvanas has to do anything more than sound that horn for Varian to know what's going on?