Things that will give raiders something to do other than raid

[Foj]

Earlier this evening I was thinking:

Imagine, a toy, that makes your backpedal speed 1.1x your forward/strafe speed. It is available as a very rare drop, about .2%, from fishing. It works in raids.

In mythic raids it increases your backpedal speed to 1.5x your forward/strafe speed.

What else? Raiders have very little to do these days other than zone into raids. Back in Cataclysm some of them had to open water fish for their food. Perhaps all raid food should come from open water fishing? Or they could settle for easily created food that was, eh, 75% of the stats.

How about a very rare mass rez BoE/auctionable world drop with 10 charges?

A very rare BoE/auctionable world drop raid banquet with 200% of the normal raid stats? Or put it on the BMAH? That would be better.

Like I said, raiders have very little to do other than zone into raids and IMO it would be great to add some progression items that increase the complexity and satisfaction associated with competitive raiding.

A permanent flask with 110% of the stats of a regular flask, obtained via ~100 PvP wins, that would also be something to do.

[Deleted]

In MoP raiders complained that they have too much to do to get into raiding and we got WoD....fuck raiders.

[Deleted]

If a reward is large enough, a player will feel compelled to do it and percieve it to be a "Must".

I think that inheritly giving someone 50% increase MS in Backpeddling or Strafing, would be really crule.

World quests, tho, might work. Keeps the world alive, as well.

[Foj]

In MoP raiders complained that they have too much to do to get into raiding and we got WoD....fuck raiders.

I think a few side activities that are "mandatory" to be "optimal" would really be a fun and constructive thing that would add a lot of depth and enjoyment to raiding, especially if they are individual tasks that can't be done any faster with groups or better gear.

[Gorgodeus]

There are plenty of things to do in Legion, while not raiding.

[Pull My Finger]

The type of raiders who don't want to do anything else in the game other than raiding shouldn't be catered to. It's their own fault that they disregard all other types of content. Objectively seen, raiding is disproportionally expensive in terms of development ressources, because they're highly ressource demanding, but at the same time highly exclusive. Tons of input, relatively low output. There's no need for MORE stuff in the game that's specifically and exclusively tailored to that segment of the game, it's backwards thinking.

[DDM]

No Garrison = no free food/fish/mats for everyone = a lot more to do in the open world ...

You don't have to invent the wheel new. Just paddle back a bit and don't make the game as casual friendly as hell. Vanilla was definitely not the best at all, but some points were not to bad. Blizz should find/make a good middle way of now and then.

If you want to get to a specific goal you have to work for it and not get it free or by whining as long as it changes so you get it free.

[Saiona]

In MoP raiders complained that they have too much to do to get into raiding and we got WoD....fuck raiders.

I wasn't one of the complainers. I loved having things to do outside of raids. WOD had pretty good raids (mythic is awesome) but nothing else to do outside of them. MoP was amazing

[Deleted]

After WoD, I think raiders should be the last people that get to ask for anything.

Luckily, for both non-raiders and raiders, legion ships with a load of non-raid content. Let's just hope they keep this up during the patch cycle.

[Deleted]

I think a few side activities that are "mandatory" to be "optimal" would really be a fun and constructive thing that would add a lot of depth and enjoyment to raiding, especially if they are individual tasks that can't be done any faster with groups or better gear.

There already were activities that were mandatory if you wanted to be optimal, in MoP for example it was dailies and people complained they were forced to do them and thanks to the complaints we got the bare bones expansion of WoD.

Luckily Legion moves the focus away from raiding a bit and it's already looking way better than WoD.

[mazuno]

Earlier this evening I was thinking:

Imagine, a toy, that makes your backpedal speed 1.1x your forward/strafe speed. It is available as a very rare drop, about .2%, from fishing. It works in raids.

In mythic raids it increases your backpedal speed to 1.5x your forward/strafe speed.
....

what are you trying to invent with a packpedaling speed higher than forward speed?
1st. walking faster backwards doesnt make sense at all, but why not, lots of things dont make sense anyway.
2nd. that would be a 100% must have for any tank player and who wants to be forced to farm for something very rare before being able to raid? not me
3rd. do you want everyone to start walking backwards? because if thats faster thats whats gonna happen, no matter how inconvenient it is.

I understand your post and I can agree as I myself felt that outside of raiding there werent much to do (but hopefully this is changing)
but I really dont understand your thing with the packpedalling speed xD

[FelPlague]

Earlier this evening I was thinking:

Imagine, a toy, that makes your backpedal speed 1.1x your forward/strafe speed. It is available as a very rare drop, about .2%, from fishing. It works in raids.

In mythic raids it increases your backpedal speed to 1.5x your forward/strafe speed.

What else? Raiders have very little to do these days other than zone into raids. Back in Cataclysm some of them had to open water fish for their food. Perhaps all raid food should come from open water fishing? Or they could settle for easily created food that was, eh, 75% of the stats.

How about a very rare mass rez BoE/auctionable world drop with 10 charges?

A very rare BoE/auctionable world drop raid banquet with 200% of the normal raid stats? Or put it on the BMAH? That would be better.

Like I said, raiders have very little to do other than zone into raids and IMO it would be great to add some progression items that increase the complexity and satisfaction associated with competitive raiding.

A permanent flask with 110% of the stats of a regular flask, obtained via ~100 PvP wins, that would also be something to do.

1. people hate being forced to pvp for pve content, let alone fish
2. if you add something that gives a advantage, it is no longer a want, it is a need
3. you still have to fish open water for food... you allways have had to... i dont get what the fuck your saying...
4. you mean like the enginnering failure pylon? or the healers mass rez?
5. yep and that means the guild that gets it first will have a MASSIVE advantage in raiding, either its so rare some raids will be unable to get it, or its so common its not special...
6. then this would completly make alchemy bullshit... and then again pvers would feel FORCED to do pve, as it would be required for raids

7. have you even played or even looked at a computer in like 6 months? legion will have TONS if not TOO MUCH for raiders to do other then raid


raid
world quests
mythic dungeons
mythic+ dungeons
rep
suramar
quest chains
profession work

[Kolvarg]

Raiders have very little to do these days other than zone into raids.

Raiders have as much to do as everyone else.

The same line of thinking that makes you basicly state raiders have nothing to do outside of raiding because they already have the best gear/power, makes it so a lot of raiders will also complain if they have to do too much non-raiding to be optimal for raiding.

If they made a toy that was relevant for raids dropping from fishing, a LOT of raiders would just be going "fucking Blizzard, you idiots, now I have to stay here bored for hours grinding fishing just so I can raid".


The content is there to do. Just because you don't personally find it rewarding, doesn't mean it's not something available to do.

And no, I'm not saying the reward system can't be improved and made more satisfying/rewarding. I'm saying:
1) The narrative that raiders have very little to do is bullshit (especially in Legion where you have world content to do to improve your artifacts, reps, etc)
2) It's nearly impossible to please all raiders. Many raiders just want to raid and not feel "forced" to do non-raiding content to relatively maximize their raiding potential (ie WoD raiding)

[Snuffleupagus]

Objectively seen, raiding is disproportionally expensive in terms of development ressources, because they're highly ressource demanding, but at the same time highly exclusive. Tons of input, relatively low output.

So I keep seeing this fallacy come up a lot, and I'm wondering where it comes from.

A raid keeps 10+ people subscribed to the game for a couple of months guaranteed, where a 5 man is... well, 5 people for maybe a couple of weeks at best if they don't raid or do anything else.

Pretty much all other content is completed by both raiders and non-raiders alike, so why is it disproportionately expensive?

I do agree that more content for raiders exclusively is not the answer, but I don't think raiding chews up profit margins as much as people like to think.

[Jewsco]

So I keep seeing this fallacy come up a lot, and I'm wondering where it comes from.

A raid keeps 10+ people subscribed to the game for a couple of months guaranteed, where a 5 man is... well, 5 people for maybe a couple of weeks at best if they don't raid or do anything else.

Pretty much all other content is completed by both raiders and non-raiders alike, so why is it disproportionately expensive?

I do agree that more content for raiders exclusively is not the answer, but I don't think raiding chews up profit margins as much as people like to think.

So it doesn't cost anything to make these raids? Do you even know the percentages that do raid? Before lfr around 10% and even with lfr only about that same 10% even bother to raid normal or higher. But the time you get to mythic raiding it is maybe 5%.
So no it doesn't serve the same amount of people that do a dungeon.
Finally blizz them damn selves said it was expensive and time consuming and is the reason why they made lfr to try to get more to raid. Why do people like you seem to ignore this fact?

[Snuffleupagus]

So it doesn't cost anything to make these raids? Do you even know the percentages that do raid? Before lfr around 10% and even with lfr only about that same 10% even bother to raid normal or higher. But the time you get to mythic raiding it is maybe 5%.
So no it doesn't serve the same amount of people that do a dungeon.
Finally blizz them damn selves said it was expensive and time consuming and is the reason why they made lfr to try to get more to raid. Why do people like you seem to ignore this fact?

Where did I say it cost nothing to make a raid?

Are you perhaps making yourself a bit mad for no reason?

I implied that raids do not chew up profit margins to the extent that people think. Take a breath, friend.

[Chirri]

So what makes a raider a raider is that they ... raid. It doesn't matter what about raiding they enjoy, it's just the act of consistently participating in raids that gives them the designation. They also do other things - some do PVP, some do pet collecting, some collect transmog, some level alts. Some want a never ending supply of fresh raid content, some are content with the speed at which Blizz is putting out raids.

The raider chooses what to do other than raid. Adding something to the game that interacts with raiding but isn't already included in the raiding experience will turn into a required outside activity that many (most?) of them won't already be doing by choice. That's shitty. I'd really rather that didn't get tucked into the game; not because it means another hoop to jump through before I get to raid, but because it would lead to even more pointless whining by players (both those who were properly participating in that non-raid activity to begin with as well as those raiders who've never had an interest in that non-raid activity and now feel compelled to do something they already consider un-fun just to get to what they consider to be the fun part of the game).

[Deleted]

In MoP raiders complained that they have too much to do to get into raiding and we got WoD....fuck raiders.

Can you explain further? I have no clue what youre talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait.

Don't raiders have more to do than anyone else in the game?

The raidcontent tends to start where other people's game stops.

No thats wrong for the simple matter that some raiders only want to raid and they dont care about collecting visual stuff (mounts, pets,achievements,etc). So some dont do non-raiding content.

[Deleted]

Can you explain further? I have no clue what youre talking about.

Uhhh, okay. In MoP a lot of people felt forced into doing stuff (mainly dailies) in order to raid because the rewards were too good to pass up. But apparently people hated doing stuff outside of raiding to be effective, so they complained and cried about it and as a result Blizzard made WoD which featured barely any daily quests and anything else that rewards progression outside of raiding so that raiders can simply jump into raids as fast as possible. And we see now how the "raiders" expansion turned out.

[Pull My Finger]

So I keep seeing this fallacy come up a lot, and I'm wondering where it comes from.

A raid keeps 10+ people subscribed to the game for a couple of months guaranteed, where a 5 man is... well, 5 people for maybe a couple of weeks at best if they don't raid or do anything else.

Well actually that is the fallacy, and it's usually one that stems from the fact that the more "hardcore" portion of the commited raiding community has traditionally always been oblivious to the every day "reality" of the game outside their circles.

It's a wrong assumption that, for example, 5 man players stick around for shorter periods of time than raiders do. Just as a 5 man player can burn out on doing 5 mans, a raider can burn out on doing raids, especially since it's even more repetitive and far less flexible.

Besides, There's tons of people who primarly did 5 mans throughout TBC, WotLK and Cata and played consistently throughout the expansions. For example, me and my friends were there for all of Cata while already having quit raiding at that point. It all comes down to the incentives and the reward structure, and in fact, that's one of the big things that went wrong in, as Blizzard put it, "engaging the casual playerbase" in MoP.

The truth is that as long as people are finding the content they like doing enjoyable and wortwhile, they stick around, regardless of what kind of content that is. There's even a segment of the player base that doesn't even do a lot of dungeons, or none at all, and some of these people play consistently. I don't really understand these players - their approach to the game tends to be elusive to the demographic that visits MMO-C - but they're out there.

Having that said: what makes raiding comparatively expensive is the fact that it's partial and exclusive. You have to consider that just as it potentially keeps a number of players subscribed, it also makes other players potentially unsubscribe if the game becomes disproportially raid-centered. Raiding isn't as long-term accessible as some other things in the game are - you have to find and maintain your raid/guild slot, play according to fixed schedule, are very dependent on other people etc., which directly excludes a number of players due to various reasons. Obviously, we don't know the numbers and can only speculate on how it ultimatelly adds up, but the point is that raiding is probably the form of content that has the greatest potential for simultaneous player retention and decline, and there's a breakpoint somewhere where MORE raiding means LESS players.

That was also the main reason for LFR - an attempt to justify the allocation of ressources by trying to reduce the exclusiveness of the content. The idea was to reach a greater number of players with content they previously couldn't be satisfied with. Not sure how well it worked out though, I have only anecdotal firsthand experience with that - myself and the people I socialize with dislike LFR and largely unsubbed in MoP as well as WoD.