Using Fel Rush in our single target and aoe rotation

[Butosai]

Something wrong with fel rush, just did 1.85Mil on an invasion felguard

I dont see the problem here

[Paxz19]

In legion most bosses don't have the hitbox issues that were in WoD so the strafe fel rush should keep you within range from my raid testing experience. Also, the camera turn VR over the boss should keep you in range. Think of the VR hitbox being like a warriors whirlwind (not in actual diameter but in the range applying all around you) so using it near the boss and flipping over them to remain in melee range is always good to keep up white damage and even more important if you are using demon blades.

[Schizoide]

Rushing forward then immediately vengeful retreating back is OK now at 100 (and feels so right!), but at 110 you will have Momentum and that wastes ~3s of Momentum uptime. I wouldn't recommend getting into the habit of doing that, unless you already know you can't deal with Momentum and accept the performance loss associated with taking Nemesis instead.

[Jegerhellig]

Simcraft doesn't have a L100 Havoc profile, so I hacked one together by setting the clevel, disabling artifact traits, and disabling the last 5 talents. Obviously you aren't gonna be getting 200k DPS at level 100, but the relative differences in the priority and talent choices should be relevant.

Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile: 190.8k DPS
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile not using Fel Rush at all: 169.8k (-12%)
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile not using Fel Rush or Vengeful Retreat at all: 161.5k (-18%)

The default profile takes Fel Mastery and Prepared, the former of which buffs Fel Rush and the latter Vengeful Retreat. Are those talents really competitive without Momentum? The entire DH Havoc playstyle centers around Momentum, which obviously isn't available at L100.

Havoc_T19P L100 HP not using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat at all, Blind Fury/Demonic Appetite: 167.5k (-14%)
Havoc_T19P L100 HP not using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat at all, Blind Fury/Demon Blades: 169.4k (-12%)

So it's clear that you want to be using Fel Rush, which makes sense as it's free and does damage. Do you need to take Fel Mastery and Prepared?

Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat, Blind Fury/Demonic Appetite: 173.1k DPS (-10.1%)
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat, Blind Fury/Demon Blades: 180.5k DPS (-5.7%)
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat, Fel Mastery/Demonic Appetite: 188.6k DPS (-1.1%)
Havoc_T19P L100 hacked profile using Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat, Fel Mastery/Demon Blades: 210.7 k DPS (+10.4%)

(Note the version of Simcraft I used was dated Aug 10, but I didn't check if the latest Demon Blades nerf was in yet.)

So the answer is that to play optimally at L100, you should take Fel Mastery and Demon Blades and use Fel Rush on cooldown. If you can stand the Momemtum playstyle at 110, Prepared will probably come out on top.

Based on these results, Fel Mastery is probably overtuned at both L100 and L110. It's up against one talent that has zero single-target DPS impact and another that only impacts single-target once you get the Anguish artifact trait. IMO, Fel Mastery or Fel Rush should be nerfed a bit so the talent isn't such an obvious choice for everybody-- some people don't enjoy the constant repositioning involved with Momentum. I'm one of them. Or alternatively, give Chaos Cleave some single-target damage.

I am absolutly terrified that they will ship it like this. Since I would really not like having to use our movement abilities for damage and having to turn frantically like that.

I really hope they buff Chaos Cleave. Give a small damage increase to the primary target as well and maybe even something like making it cost 5-10 fury less to use Chaos Strike.

[Deleted]

I am absolutly terrified that they will ship it like this. Since I would really not like having to use our movement abilities for damage and having to turn frantically like that.

If they will "fix" that we will be left with what, 1 generator, 1 spender, throw glaive and eye beam every 45 seconds? No thanks. They would have to do something to make up for the loss of two skills on the priority list or this would be the most boring spec evah.

[Schizoide]

@Jegerhellig: They did ship it like this. DHs are in the live game right now.

@Nexxalys: We're talking about removing 6 actions per minute from Fel Rush and 2-4 APMs from Vengeful Retreat. Both of these abilities don't actually consume normal GCDs; VR has no GCD at all and Fel Rush is a 0.25s GCD. Anyway, it's not particularly difficult to imagine how to fill those 10 APMs. Without Demon Blades, you simply Demon Bite and Chaos Strike more. With Demon Blades... it would likely need to generate more Fury.

If your criticism is that Havoc without Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat used rotationally is a very boring spec with simple generator/spender mechanics, well.... I agree! So maybe the answer is to add an ability used only on a proc, or to add synergy between two abilities, so the playstyle without forced repositioning doesn't become deadly tedious. Those things aren't difficult to armchair design either.

[Deleted]

How about, if you don't like, don't play it. Nothing needs to change.

[Schizoide]

How about, if you don't like, don't play it. Nothing needs to change.

That can be distilled into two things.

1) Player preference doesn't matter
2) Don't provide feedback

Hopefully it's obvious why your statement is counter-productive.

[Fiftyonred]

@Jegerhellig: They did ship it like this. DHs are in the live game right now.

@Nexxalys: We're talking about removing 6 actions per minute from Fel Rush and 2-4 APMs from Vengeful Retreat. Both of these abilities don't actually consume normal GCDs; VR has no GCD at all and Fel Rush is a 0.25s GCD. Anyway, it's not particularly difficult to imagine how to fill those 10 APMs. Without Demon Blades, you simply Demon Bite and Chaos Strike more. With Demon Blades... it would likely need to generate more Fury.

If your criticism is that Havoc without Fel Rush/Vengeful Retreat used rotationally is a very boring spec with simple generator/spender mechanics, well.... I agree! So maybe the answer is to add an ability used only on a proc, or to add synergy between two abilities, so the playstyle without forced repositioning doesn't become deadly tedious. Those things aren't difficult to armchair design either.

One cool option could be to add a chance to proc a buff to fel rush from auto attacks that would make it do triple damage and then lower the base damage just enough to make it break even with demons bite.

That would remove it from the rotation unless you took Momentum, and add a bit of very demon hunter'ish playstyle.

Oh and the proc would not consume a normal charge of fel Rush.

[Butosai]

Based on these results, Fel Mastery is probably overtuned at both L100 and L110. It's up against one talent that has zero single-target DPS impact and another that only impacts single-target once you get the Anguish artifact trait. IMO, Fel Mastery or Fel Rush should be nerfed a bit so the talent isn't such an obvious choice for everybody-- some people don't enjoy the constant repositioning involved with Momentum. I'm one of them. Or alternatively, give Chaos Cleave some single-target damage.

if you dont like the class design dont play the fucking class my god. Thats why there are other classes. you dont have to be a big spoopy demon.

[Deleted]

That can be distilled into two things.

1) Player preference doesn't matter
2) Don't provide feedback

Hopefully it's obvious why your statement is counter-productive.

Maybe you should spend less time bitching and crying because you need to use VR/Fel Rush and instead just reroll something else, clearly the class isn't for you, good thing there are plenty of other classes to choose from.

[Zeds Dead]

Fel rush is pretty much our top priority. You should only hold onto it if a burst phase/adds are about to come up.

Don't ever sit on two charges. Learn to use the distances to your advantage and you shouldnt rush too far out of range. Sometimes I back up to maximum melee range right before rushing in.

[Deleted]

Off Topic - Why are guides recommending to never cap the rage/energy/pain bar ? Only like 60-70%?

[Schizoide]

bitching and crying

Unfortunately you see lots of posts like this. Comes with WoW forums.

People, please consider posting like adults and engaging with the conversation, rather than trying to shut it down. Just think about it for a minute, really.

@Kayn: Capping resources (other than mana) means lost performance for pretty much every spec in the game. I believe warriors have a talent that gives them extra damage at max rage, but that's about it.

[Deleted]

Off Topic - Why are guides recommending to never cap the rage/energy/pain bar ? Only like 60-70%?

Because then you can't regen more of it.

[Deleted]

Because then you can't regen more of it.

Still don't get it. Capping it means that you can spend more spells, which is better in performance, no? Does it take longer to get to cap rather than to 70%?

[Deleted]

Still don't get it. Capping it means that you can spend more spells, which is better in performance, no? Does it take longer to get to cap rather than to 70%?

No but in case of passive regen, you will miss some ticks of regen if you cap it.

[Deleted]

No but in case of passive regen, you will miss some ticks of regen if you cap it.

gotcha, thanks!

[Sturmreiter]

Off Topic - Why are guides recommending to never cap the rage/energy/pain bar ? Only like 60-70%?

You want to burn off excess so you don't waste your regen. You want to minimize wasted resources (other than Survival Hunters on a Mongoose Bite/Snake Fighter cooldown dump burst phase and maybe Outlaw Rogues with high haste on Adrenaline Rush, where you generate far more resources than you can spend). If you're Havoc, you don't want to sit over 70 Fury because Demon Bite/Demon Blades can put you over the cap (so bleed Fury before you use a regen ability).

[Deleted]

Demon Blades actually can give you like 70 at once and I imagine this will be 84 in Legion with t19. So good luck never wasting resources.