What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?(Invasion Spoiler)

[S2omegaS2]

Some people posting are so out of line it is unreal. First of all I suggest you to play both sides of the scenario, not just watch. There was no direct path for the alliance/horde to help each other without jumping off a cliff (not an option...results in death).
If the horde stayed any longer many many more important people would have died. Thrall was crawling on the ground in pain, Baine was injured, Vol'Jin was stabbed but not dead yet so it is the duty of his soldiers to try to save him. If the horde stayed around Even the banshee queen herself would have bit the dust within minutes at the rate things were going. Retreat was the only option.

Now this brings worthless arguments that the horde should have sent a runner or helped the alliance retreat....Already stated the runner was impossible, plus would have been rather pointless, they heard the horn and knew what it meant, granted they didnt know the severity of the horde front. So this leaves the only option that half of you are crying about is helping the horde with range from the cliff. I would love to see half of you be a leader and tell your men that they have to stay behind and will 100% die so that some alliance may or may not be able to retreat instead of you. Think about it...you are damning your own men to have the possibility to save a loosely allied team.

Also think about it this way before nonsense is posted....is Genn Graymane and Mekkatorque betrayers and cowardly because they left as soon as Varian jumped....no they are just not stupid, everyone would have died. It sucks the Horde saw it before the Alliance, but they called the retreat which should have meant....everyone gtfo its not winnable.

[Deleted]

You mean sound the horn 1 second before she's about to leave? As I said, worst form of retreat I've ever seen. Varian was planning the assault 1 second before she sounded that horn, neither side should be on different pages like that. Why does she have to do anything else other than sound the horn? Because that's what you're suppose to do when your in charge of anti air support. If your pulling back its your job to let the ground troops know asap and even lend them assistance if possible (wasn't in this situation). Blowing a horn while the ground troop commander is still planning an assault and has no idea a retreat is actually happening?

Sounds good to me, it's fantasy so can't really expect anything like that. Need something to drive the story aka Genn Greymane Vs Sylvanas Windrunner and keep that going.

@Nemmar I know this is a different thread, but as I'm typing this I couldn't help but laugh at what you said. It's 100% correct to the point where it's funny. Nobody will bother to clear up the misunderstanding because the plot needs to be fueled somehow. Definitely a cliche anime plot, no doubt.

Yup, it is quite bad.

Just to comment on the topic since i'm here. I don't know why everyone hates Jaina. She has good reasons to be angry. The only thing i disagree with is that she said she wants to fight the horde at the same time as the legion. That, is a mistake. Definitly don't trust the horde, but no reason to go fight them. They aren't the threat.

[Mehrunes]

Somebody hasnot read book/quests normally

1. Garrosh attacked Ashenvale several times. Gained some advantage but was drawn back

And the first attack happened after Cataclysm. Alliance attacked Barrens before the Cataclysm. Specifically, Northwatch. I.e. Theramore, i.e. Jaina.

4. Garrosh used Dark shaman magic to siege several alliance bases and laid soege to Theramore which while Alliance coty , was still almost nonhostile to Horde.

Almost non-hostile to Horde? Even turning her city into Alliance's staging ground and the entire zone into a highway into Barrens aside, Jaina's troops attacked Southern Barrens, Northern Barrens, Mulgore, Durotar, planned to attack Orgrimmar itself and were active in Azshara and Stonetalon.

Theramore was its own Nation created seweral months before Orgrimmar and Durotar but somehow its pk for horde to lay siege to alliance outposts foreats cities and kill alliance citizens and if alliance answers back, whoa

Yes, it's OK to attack hostile outposts. Especially if that outpost attacked first.

What did we receive?
Garrosh started same shit again and tried use divine bell and used Dalaran, city where Jaian became ruler, where Jaina stilk allowed horde to stay, city which Jaina left to be still neutral, city where Jaina refuses Varian to kick horde out

Jaina was so neutral in Dalaran that she went to Darnassus to pick a side in the war and personally captured or killed Horde soldiers.

Garrosh used thos very city to attack darnassus and steal back Divome bell and use its powers to mkre destruction

Which didn't actually hurt Dalaran in any way. Hell, even the Alliance wasn't damaged directly by the Horde. The only Alliance member hurt by it was Anduin and it was because he used the mallet. Meanwhile, a whole battalion of Orcs including Ishi died due to Garrosh's arrogance.

Thats where Jaina went nuts. She imprisoned most Sunreavers and pledged loyality to Alliance again

Which makes her a hypocrite. Then again she had a long history with that trait by then. She also abused her powers then, but it's OK when she acts in authoritarian manner. It's only wrong where Horde does that in her mind.

Wby do u forget about theramore? Ashenvale? Darskshore? Divine bell and mana bomb? Southshore? Hillsbrad massarace woth plague? Gilneas? Horde did lots of Zhorrible things most were done by Garrosh some by sylvanas yet in most cases rest of the horde either approved those horrible things or were ok woth it

Hillsbrad wasn't massacred with Blight, Southshore was. Theramore, while brutal (and the later capture of the civilians near Tanaris and their treatment is inexcusable) was the single most justified target in the entire war discounting faction capitals. Which is also the mana bomb attack so it's another redundancy here. As mentioned above, the Divine Bell was effectively the Horde shooting itself in the foot because Orcs stronk and can succumb to no Sha according to Garrosh. And I can't recall any significant Horde activity in Darkshore other than recruiting the dancing Trolls that were quickly wiped out, but I may have forgotten something.

[JoshuaNLG]

Because staying and them all dying was the smart move right?.....

- - - Updated - - -



Can't help fight a war if your dead.

Jaina doesn't know the reason as to why they left. She believes sylvanas pulled her troops back to leave the alliance to face off against the legion alone.

[Deleted]

New Horde motto "Victory or death.... or retreat" :P

Victory or Retreat!

[lockybalboa]

Are they really gonna turn her into a dreadlord wtf

[Kallisto]

You can think whatever you want, but trying to paint Theramore as the aggressor is silly and wrong. But you clearly like being silly and wrong, so whatever. Garrosh commits whatever war crimes he wants and Jaina is the bad guy for defending her people.

Why? People saying Garrosh attacking Ashenvale before Theramore got into the conflict are wrong. Theramore troops attacked both Durotar and Crossroads (heartlands of the Horde) before any horde troops were ordered by Garrosh to attack Ashenvale. Theramore were the aggressors in that conflict.

As for Neutrality. Jaina's own words on Neutrality is simple. She is quoted as saying "To be neutral you must side with the Alliance." Simply put that is her skewed logic.

[Darktbs]

And the first attack happened after Cataclysm. Alliance attacked Barrens before the Cataclysm. Specifically, Northwatch. I.e. Theramore, i.e. Jaina.


Hillsbrad wasn't massacred with Blight, Southshore was. Theramore, while brutal (and the later capture of the civilians near Tanaris and their treatment is inexcusable) was the single most justified target in the entire war discounting faction capitals. Which is also the mana bomb attack so it's another redundancy here. As mentioned above, the Divine Bell was effectively the Horde shooting itself in the foot because Orcs stronk and can succumb to no Sha according to Garrosh. And I can't recall any significant Horde activity in Darkshore other than recruiting the dancing Trolls that were quickly wiped out, but I may have forgotten something.

If only the Horde destroyed Theramore by fighting.They did not,the horde just dropped a mana bomb.What Jaina did after Tides of War was NOTHING compared to what the Horde did in the city.And if you fought that droping a mana bomb and nuking a city is OK then there is no right to judge Jaina's action.

[Deathquoi]

Why? People saying Garrosh attacking Ashenvale before Theramore got into the conflict are wrong. Theramore troops attacked both Durotar and Crossroads (heartlands of the Horde) before any horde troops were ordered by Garrosh to attack Ashenvale. Theramore were the aggressors in that conflict.

As for Neutrality. Jaina's own words on Neutrality is simple. She is quoted as saying "To be neutral you must side with the Alliance." Simply put that is her skewed logic.

The attacks on the orcs were under Jainas father wayyyy before the destruction of Theramore. Jaina sided with the orcs against her own father...

[Mehrunes]

Why? People saying Garrosh attacking Ashenvale before Theramore got into the conflict are wrong. Theramore troops attacked both Durotar and Crossroads (heartlands of the Horde) before any horde troops were ordered by Garrosh to attack Ashenvale. Theramore were the aggressors in that conflict.

I don't think we know when Northwatch troops appeared in Durotar so it could be after Cataclysm. I may be wrong though.

The attacks on the orcs were under Jainas father wayyyy before the destruction of Theramore. Jaina sided with the orcs against her own father...

The attack on Crossroads was moments prior to the Cataclysm when Daelin was rotting in the ground for around a decade already.

[Deleted]

Haven't agreed with that, have I?

Well I didn’t imply that it was right or even justified. When I first read war crimes I was confused Rhonin helped her. I just wanted to point out that his order is switched around and that one thing doesn’t imply the other.

Manpower is a resource. So is knowledge. And work. She gave them all three there. Also how is capturing or killing the Horde soldiers trying to infiltrate Darnassus not harming the Horde? And she did so many times before as a leader of Alliance nation. She wasn't one when she became the leader of Dalaran. Even said so to the player (or Anduin, not sure) when they were discussing removing the Blood Elves earlier. Rhonin also initially told her to fuck off precisely because it would be against Dalaran's position. He paid the highest price for going against it.

I can’t remember if she patrolled through Darnassus during that quest or not, but even if, it could as well be just some game mechanic, because why would she (as a busy leader of the kirin tor) patrol through Darnassus all day? I remember exactly however that we meet up in Darnassus with her after the theft to investigate magical traces.

We do know the Council wasn't involved. She initiated the Purge immediately after returning from Darnassus. I don't see the Council next to her other than Aethas (who I presume would have to sit out a vote about himself). And we do know they were needed because the leader of the Council is a representative function and calls for meetings. Khadgar was also barely fine with it since he entirely ignored her orders about not cooperating with the Horde afterwards. Modera also helps Aethas behind Jaina's back prior to the Blood Elves being officially readmitted.

Both Vargoth and Modera supported her during the Isle of Thunder, so they were kind of fine with her decision. Ansirem will vote no on the vote to allowing reentry . Just because these 2 are now fine with reallowing them into Dalaran doesn’t mean they were against the purge at that time. The conditions changed (the Legion attacking) and so on. I bet they have some sort of mechanism in the council to expel members and even the head, because only then a council makes sense.
And the purge didn’t happen exactly after the theft, it was even separated ingame.

I didn’t say she was/is doing the right thing or even that I agree with her decisions – in fact I liked the old peace Jaina by a lot more, they could’ve given her current role to someone else (like Tyrande) and not butcher her personality back and forth.
I’m just saying the Horde can blame her for everything and play the victim card (which happens all the time here). Aethas as a member of the council at that time was IMO in the responsibility to clear these 2 incidents up and even talked to the rest of the council about Garrosh’s pressure on the blood elves and not do exactly the opposite.

[Rhavok89]

No, it wouldn't have. They should have retreated together, with Sylvanas' forces providing support until the Alliance force was save. Hell, Varian himself could have been saved by a Val'kyr had Sylvanas not made the decision to save only the Horde.



That really doesn't matter. You do not abandon your allies to save your own ass. If you need to retreat, inform your allies. Don't just leave. It's cowardice to the fullest. There's no strategy to it. The Horde chose for the survival of the Horde, not of Azeroth. Divided once more. Two dead leaders, one probably didn't have to had the Horde stayed a little longer to secure the save retreat of the Alliance.

The Horde: Victory or death! Lies.

I cna tell you are a hardcore Alliance fanboy so i will try not to step on your delicate toesies whilst trying to point out your flawed thinking. So basically you think the horde should have stepped out of the frying pan and into the fire in order to help cover the Alliances retreat? Sounds hypocritical if you ask me. And also she did not leave without a warning. She blew the horn signaling the retreat and calling in the Val'kyr. If the alliance didnt hear that well than damn.
Lastly if the roles had been reversed i guarendamntee you that if varian had fallen in the midst of battle the Alliance also would have called a retreat. I personally believe your viewpoint is biased because you view the horde as savages and fodder for the legion. Good day sir.

[Mehrunes]

I can’t remember if she patrolled through Darnassus during that quest or not, but even if, it could as well be just some game mechanic, because why would she (as a busy leader of the kirin tor) patrol through Darnassus all day? I remember exactly however that we meet up in Darnassus with her after the theft to investigate magical traces.

She's not patrolling. She's at the gates to Darnassus from where the Horde troops tried to enter. When the Divine Bell is on the other side of the city. Not exactly doing a good job of safeguarding it if that's all she's done. And when you get to her she says she laid out magical (presumably) traps and she caught every Horde member who tried to enter despite of them or even teleport through. Whether the traps were lethal or not is unknown.

Both Vargoth and Modera supported her during the Isle of Thunder, so they were kind of fine with her decision. Ansirem will vote no on the vote to allowing reentry . Just because these 2 are now fine with reallowing them into Dalaran doesn’t mean they were against the purge at that time. The conditions changed (the Legion attacking) and so on. I bet they have some sort of mechanism in the council to expel members and even the head, because only then a council makes sense.

It's not like anyone had much choice there. Jaina put them all in a difficult situation that was already done and the milk was already spilled. It's not like anyone could mend fences with the Horde after Jaina purged the Blood Elves with the aid of Stormwind's forces. And when Antonidas had Kel'thuzad imprisoned he wasn't the only Council member present. Hell, the leader of the Council doesn't even get a deciding vote in case of a tie, the Council instead votes again the next day until an agreement is reached.

And the purge didn’t happen exactly after the theft, it was even separated ingame.

Jaina screams "No no no the Bell" when you finish the first quest. The theft either just occurred or at least was just discovered (which also makes the idea that she was just safeguarding the Bell rather unsubstantiated because she obviously was doing something else in the meantime) . Then she comes from the gates of Darnassus tracking the trail of the Horde player, sees the portal, says it's from Dalaran, enters the portal, initiates the Purge. Hardly any delay. But even if there was any delay between the theft and the Purge, there's zero delay between her return and the Purge.

I’m just saying the Horde can blame her for everything and play the victim card (which happens all the time here). Aethas as a member of the council at that time was IMO in the responsibility to clear these 2 incidents up and even talked to the rest of the council about Garrosh’s pressure on the blood elves and not do exactly the opposite.

Aethas was obviously wrong too, but he was inexperienced and Garrosh did threaten him with the fate of his race after all. The race that was already almost wiped out by the Scourge.

[Archmage Khadgar]

Question...

Where the fuck is Khadgar while all this shit goes down?

Helping out the demon hunters.

[Timberwind]

Anyone consider that she might corrupted by an Old God? She was in the Heart Chamber, and was (arguably) the most powerful person there. Her rage and Hatred for Garrosh would have been a magnet for Y'sharjz presence. Her behavior is the complete opposite of her previous self. I think that we'll have to fight her and purge her of the Old God's power, then she'll come back as a badass and back Khadgar up in a final push against the Demons.

[Deleted]

Aethas was obviously wrong too, but he was inexperienced and Garrosh did threaten him with the fate of his race after all. The race that was already almost wiped out by the Scourge.

Well, if Lothemar was having peace talk with Varian in order to save the blood elves, so even more reason to talk to the other council members or hand the 'traitors' (Thalen and the other dude) to the Alliance.

[Ehrenpanzer]

No, it wouldn't have. They should have retreated together, with Sylvanas' forces providing support until the Alliance force was save. Hell, Varian himself could have been saved by a Val'kyr had Sylvanas not made the decision to save only the Horde.



That really doesn't matter. You do not abandon your allies to save your own ass. If you need to retreat, inform your allies. Don't just leave. It's cowardice to the fullest. There's no strategy to it. The Horde chose for the survival of the Horde, not of Azeroth. Divided once more. Two dead leaders, one probably didn't have to had the Horde stayed a little longer to secure the save retreat of the Alliance.

The Horde: Victory or death! Lies.

Todays Varian circlejerk brought to you by the letter S.....

OP: It is simply because Blizzard cannot write more then 1 dimensional characters... EVERY major character is polarized to to peace or all out war, they are simply incapable of writing depth into characters... Garrosh 2.0 inc

[seventysix]

I see so many posts saying the horde are cowards etc for leaving the alliance, am I missing something or did our warchief not also just die?

[IntellectuallyChallenged]

I'm laughing at people that think Horde players should feel shame for the way someone else wrote the lore. Silly little lames.

Just so you know, Alliance isn't all shiny and clean either. Not by a long shot.

[masterjc]

I think you dont know lore at all
Havenot read books most quests and havenot played both sides to see each truth

Theramore has never ever attacked Horde since jainas and thralls pact
First conflict was in wc3 when lordaeron remnants were defending stonetalon from new horde.
Second conflict was after pact
During Daelins return
Kul Tiras atracked Durotar. Jaina withdraw her troops as much as she coukd and even asisted horde
Third was during cyrcle of hatred where dreadlord manipukated thralls and jainas advisors to start conflict
After that all conflicts started from Horde side