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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post
    Exactly, but that's what people WILL do, just like they did with Premed. I'm talking about the vast majority here, those who don't really care for that extra bit of damage, those who don't raid or do rated PvP. It's just that much of a weird ability. Off the GCD, short cooldown, no difference in rotation with or without it. SnD was something you had to at least think about occasionally, this... you have the option to ignore it completely.
    okay then, let me ask you this, who cares if plebs macro it together
    terrible players will play the classes terribly no matter how it's designed why should we design the classes for them?

    and anyway, ive yet to see one person macro it together, and if anything, if bad players have the option to just macro it together and sacrifice damage for comfort then isnt that better for them than HAVING to keep up slice and dice? either way they lose tons of dps but this way at least they dont feel like they do.
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2016-08-11 at 03:39 PM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    okay then, let me ask you this, who cares if plebs macro it together
    terrible players will play the classes terribly no matter how it's designed why should we design the classes for them?

    and anyway, ive yet to see one person macro it together, and if anything, if bad players have the option to just macro it together and sacrifice damage for comfort then isnt that better for them than HAVING to keep up slice and dice? either way they lose tons of dps but this way at least they dont feel like they do.
    Nobody cares if people macro it together, you're completely missing the point. The point is the ability has that little to do with the spec it might as well not even be there. People complained about Savage Roar and Inquisition for so long for being a boring maintenance buff, and now we have this - it doesn't even take combo points so it doesn't affect gameplay at all. There's no decision making to be had, it's a simple "press the button if buff isn't up, or is close to falling off, otherwise ignore". If the spell disappeared now, you wouldn't even know, because it doesn't change the way the spec is played at all.

    E: I just realised I could add it to the SS macro I have for levelling:
    Code:
    #showtooltip Shadowstrike
    /cast [nostealth,nocombat] Stealth
    /cast [nostealth,combat] Shadow Dance
    /cast [stealth,nocombat] Symbols of Death
    /cast Cold Blood
    /cast Shadowstrike
    /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
    The Bold text being the extras what otherwise wouldn't be there. Never have to even think about it whilst questing, rofl. Literally mash that and Evisc for levelling. Yay...
    Last edited by Soisoisoi; 2016-08-11 at 04:07 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post
    Nobody cares if people macro it together, you're completely missing the point. The point is the ability has that little to do with the spec it might as well not even be there. People complained about Savage Roar and Inquisition for so long for being a boring maintenance buff, and now we have this - it doesn't even take combo points so it doesn't affect gameplay at all. There's no decision making to be had, it's a simple "press the button if buff isn't up, or is close to falling off, otherwise ignore". If the spell disappeared now, you wouldn't even know, because it doesn't change the way the spec is played at all.

    E: I just realised I could add it to the SS macro I have for levelling:
    Code:
    #showtooltip Shadowstrike
    /cast [nostealth,nocombat] Stealth
    /cast [nostealth,combat] Shadow Dance
    /cast [stealth,nocombat] Symbols of Death
    /cast Cold Blood
    /cast Shadowstrike
    /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
    The Bold text being the extras what otherwise wouldn't be there. Never have to even think about it whilst questing, rofl. Literally mash that and Evisc for levelling. Yay...
    of course there's decision involved you just have t18 bias, on 110 shadow dances are pretty limited you HAVE TO ration them, so not using them right away(as a terrible player would) and using it to maximize it's uptime is a very real thing and it's way more deep than keeping up slice and dice because combo points are ALWAYS available dances arent

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    of course there's decision involved you just have t18 bias, on 110 shadow dances are pretty limited you HAVE TO ration them, so not using them right away(as a terrible player would) and using it to maximize it's uptime is a very real thing and it's way more deep than keeping up slice and dice because combo points are ALWAYS available dances arent
    T18 Bias, what? I'm talking about at 110 on beta. Nothing to do with HFC tier sets.

    As much as I want to agree with having SoD as something deep, it really won't be, it's going to be very easy to just have the likes of TellMeWhen track Symbols of Death and the cooldown of Shadow Dance, and setting an optimal time to overlap them, bearing in mind every finisher reduces the CD by 15/18seconds -

    ... or simply never using the last charge until the end of the fight, saving it for when you need to refresh SoD unless you can 100% get another charge before it runs out. Hell I'll probably set that up myself eventually out of boredom and the fact I enjoy creating silly things in TMW. Either way you look at it, it's not deep at all. You *will* get another charge of dance before SoD can run out.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    and if you macro it into your regular dance you'll waste tons of damage
    This is an urban myth, I explain why here.

    I calculated the damage loss by macroing them together: with BHTV it's about 3.5% of your damage. Without BHTV (i.e. in Legion), under 2%. Significant, but not "tons of damage".

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post
    T18 Bias, what? I'm talking about at 110 on beta. Nothing to do with HFC tier sets.

    As much as I want to agree with having SoD as something deep, it really won't be, it's going to be very easy to just have the likes of TellMeWhen track Symbols of Death and the cooldown of Shadow Dance, and setting an optimal time to overlap them, bearing in mind every finisher reduces the CD by 15/18seconds -

    ... or simply never using the last charge until the end of the fight, saving it for when you need to refresh SoD unless you can 100% get another charge before it runs out. Hell I'll probably set that up myself eventually out of boredom and the fact I enjoy creating silly things in TMW. Either way you look at it, it's not deep at all. You *will* get another charge of dance before SoD can run out.
    and you cant track slice with tellmewhen?

    everything youve described here is more deep than "below 10 sec? press backstab 3 times then press button"

    im not saying it's the epitome of depth and skillcap BUT IT IS harder to manage than slice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Celfydd View Post
    This is an urban myth, I explain why here.

    I calculated the damage loss by macroing them together: with BHTV it's about 3.5% of your damage. Without BHTV (i.e. in Legion), under 2%. Significant, but not "tons of damage".
    is that 2% with premed in mind? because you basically lose 1/3 a finisher as well

    and during openers youll use more dances than 1 every 18 seconds and you'll waste more in the place it's most important not to

    or let's say you have to swap to an add and nuke it fast
    you just wasted like 200k important damage on an add that HAS to die fast (like the drake on cenarius for example)
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2016-08-11 at 05:05 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    is that 2% with premed in mind? because you basically lose 1/3 a finisher as well
    I did several sustained runs on dummies with and without macroing it (but with BHTV) and the figures confirmed my calculations. It's certainly that order of magnitude and not 10% or anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    and during openers youll use more dances than 1 every 18 seconds and you'll waste more in the place it's most important not to

    or let's say you have to swap to an add and nuke it fast
    you just wasted like 200k important damage on an add that HAS to die fast (like the drake on cenarius for example)
    Not as much is wasted as you think since the first Shadowstrike is always a guaranteed crit. Let's say your crit rate is 50% and your Shadowstrike hits for 80k. Macroing it you always get 160k. Micromanaging it you get 160k (2xhit) 25% of the time, 240k (1xhit, 1xcrit) 50% of the time, and 320k (2xcrit) 25% of the time. That averages at 240k meaning you lost only 80k (assuming you didn't have to refresh SoD anyway at that time, which is about 50% of the time).

    Like I said, it will always be more damage to micromanage it unless you manage to mess up your windows and SoD drops off (in which case it will be significantly LESS damage). I'm not disputing that macroing it loses you damage. What I am disputing is that it is a "ton of damage" as keeps on being repeated on forums.
    Last edited by Celfydd; 2016-08-11 at 05:30 PM.

  8. #48
    Rogue was already one of the least played classes. Even when they had a legendary only for them they were in the bottom third. The masses don't like the class. If they were trying to draw one group of players to demon hunters only, which is absurd, it would be from a popular class.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Celfydd View Post
    I did several sustained runs on dummies with and without macroing it (but with BHTV) and the figures confirmed my calculations. It's certainly that order of magnitude and not 10% or anything like that.


    Not as much is wasted as you think since the first Shadowstrike is always a guaranteed crit. Let's say your crit rate is 50% and your Shadowstrike hits for 80k. Macroing it you always get 160k. Micromanaging it you get 160k (2xhit) 25% of the time, 240k (1xhit, 1xcrit) 50% of the time, and 320k (2xcrit) 25% of the time. That averages at 240k meaning you lost only 80k (assuming you didn't have to refresh SoD anyway at that time, which is about 50% of the time).

    Like I said, it will always be more damage to micromanage it unless you manage to mess up your windows and SoD drops off (in which case it will be significantly LESS damage). I'm not disputing that macroing it loses you damage. What I am disputing is that it is a "ton of damage" as keeps on being repeated on forums.
    Can someone Sim this? I don't think SimC is updated and I've not got around to figuring AMR's Simulator out yet. It'd be nice to have some actual numbers on how much damage difference it is to get the crit every time we dance vs refreshing it as a normal buff.

  10. #50
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    Isn't everyone complaining about how bad demon hunters are right now?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Celfydd View Post
    I did several sustained runs on dummies with and without macroing it (but with BHTV) and the figures confirmed my calculations. It's certainly that order of magnitude and not 10% or anything like that.


    Not as much is wasted as you think since the first Shadowstrike is always a guaranteed crit. Let's say your crit rate is 50% and your Shadowstrike hits for 80k. Macroing it you always get 160k. Micromanaging it you get 160k (2xhit) 25% of the time, 240k (1xhit, 1xcrit) 50% of the time, and 320k (2xcrit) 25% of the time. That averages at 240k meaning you lost only 80k (assuming you didn't have to refresh SoD anyway at that time, which is about 50% of the time).

    Like I said, it will always be more damage to micromanage it unless you manage to mess up your windows and SoD drops off (in which case it will be significantly LESS damage). I'm not disputing that macroing it loses you damage. What I am disputing is that it is a "ton of damage" as keeps on being repeated on forums.

    well 2% is the difference between a dead boss and a live boss quite often so technically it is "tons of dmg" since the difference between a wipe and a kill is big :P as a mythic raider any lost dps is tons of dps in my mind, i just cant wrap my head around deliberately doing less damage just so i have to press 1 fewer buttons
    Last edited by shaunika123; 2016-08-11 at 07:17 PM.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    well 2% is the difference between a dead boss and a live boss quite often so technically it is "tons of dmg" since the difference between a wipe and a kill is big :P as a mythic raider any lost dps is tons of dps in my mind, i just cant wrap my head around deliberately doing less damage just so i have to press 1 fewer buttons
    2% DPS difference is not equal to 2% boss health at the end of a progression encounter.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    2% DPS difference is not equal to 2% boss health at the end of a progression encounter.
    nor did i say it was

    ive wiped on 50k hp fel lord which is basically 2% of my dps
    that's what im saying

    plus if everyone lost 2% dps in t he raid then that basically IS 2% of the bosses health, so you cant play with that attitude

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeula View Post
    Isn't everyone complaining about how bad demon hunters are right now?

    Dunno, personally i hate the momentum playstyle, where you use fel rush on cd, i don't understand why people like having their mobility skill tied to damage, especially on some fights, wasting mobility skills can be deadly, imagine if monks had to use roll on cd for dps.

  15. #55
    DH seems really dumbed down and casual friendly, the dps one anyway. Tank seems more involving like prot warrior. I got bored of the class after 2-3 hours.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by mitre27 View Post
    Dunno, personally i hate the momentum playstyle, where you use fel rush on cd, i don't understand why people like having their mobility skill tied to damage, especially on some fights, wasting mobility skills can be deadly, imagine if monks had to use roll on cd for dps.
    it's super unlikely the momentum playstyle will be legion live. They've openly said they dislike it, lots of players said they dislike it. It's only the first week out.. expect nerfs probably after next weeks reset then final tune right before live. Gotta remember, tuning DH isn't going to be too hard though. It doesn't have multiple DPS specs.. you're either DPS or not so they can continue tweaking some of those playstyle numbers even after live without too much worry. I do think they're trying to get the other numbers tighter right now though without breaking classes.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    nor did i say it was

    ive wiped on 50k hp fel lord which is basically 2% of my dps
    that's what im saying

    plus if everyone lost 2% dps in t he raid then that basically IS 2% of the bosses health, so you cant play with that attitude
    And how often did you wipe at 2%? Because from a statistics viewpoint, you CAN play with that attitude. You could slack like a sloth and hope that your trinket procs are exceptionally well placed. It's the same, because you reduce the question to a single incident, which is not feasible if you want to talk about "everything"
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    winning
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    And how often did you wipe at 2%? Because from a statistics viewpoint, you CAN play with that attitude. You could slack like a sloth and hope that your trinket procs are exceptionally well placed. It's the same, because you reduce the question to a single incident, which is not feasible if you want to talk about "everything"
    did you even read my last paragraph? if you take raiding in any way seriously then you wont lose 0,1% dps deliberately let alone 2%
    and if you dont then it doesnt matter what you do

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    if you take raiding in any way seriously then you wont lose 0,1% dps deliberately let alone 2%
    The point is that you risk losing more than 2% if you mess up your windows and let SoD drop. Certainly in progression when you don't know exactly what's going to happen in the fight, and/or if the movement requirements are unpredictable, this is a very real risk. Refreshing it early is thus an insurance policy.

  20. #60
    Herald of the Titans Galbrei's Avatar
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    Did they nerf rogues? I wouldn't know, I'm kicking major ass as sub

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