Legion - Assassination Discussion

[Deleted]

I think that's just a Rogue forum trait :P

I think the problem overall with rogues is this:

In my opinion it has always been one of the slightly more complex classes to play, and for that reason its also been more rewarding. Good rogues have almost always been doing good dps.

We are now at a point where dps specs are getting closer and closer to eachother and at the same time classes with only 1 dps spec, has to fill multipled roles(cleave, aoe and single target) where as rogues usually have one for cleave, one for aoe and one for single target.

We are now at a point however where we dont really stand out on single target dps anymore, our cleave is semi decent only and our aoe spec is not near the top of the charts.

On top of this we are also melee in an already melee heavy group of classes(thats only getting melee heavier) with ranged often being prefered due to boss mechanics.

All other melee classes have either ranged specs, tank specs or healer specs to fall back on, but if we dont get chosen for our dps, we dont get chosen at all.

This is why the dps matters so much for rogues.

[Spriestlawl]

I think the problem overall with rogues is this:

...

I don't disagree, the issue is though we have no other identity in our specs other than those roles. I'd love to see the specs be reasonable at all the types of fights with talent changes but we haven't actually had solid talents since they introduced them. The classes talents have always been pretty pitiful quite honestly..

[shaunika123]

I think the problem overall with rogues is this:

In my opinion it has always been one of the slightly more complex classes to play, and for that reason its also been more rewarding. Good rogues have almost always been doing good dps.

We are now at a point where dps specs are getting closer and closer to eachother and at the same time classes with only 1 dps spec, has to fill multipled roles(cleave, aoe and single target) where as rogues usually have one for cleave, one for aoe and one for single target.

We are now at a point however where we dont really stand out on single target dps anymore, our cleave is semi decent only and our aoe spec is not near the top of the charts.

On top of this we are also melee in an already melee heavy group of classes(thats only getting melee heavier) with ranged often being prefered due to boss mechanics.

All other melee classes have either ranged specs, tank specs or healer specs to fall back on, but if we dont get chosen for our dps, we dont get chosen at all.

This is why the dps matters so much for rogues.

yes but we're still the only melee spec that doesnt die to a light summer breeze, rogues will ALWAYS have a place in mythic raiding due to how durable they are.

[Deleted]

I think the problem overall with rogues is this:

In my opinion it has always been one of the slightly more complex classes to play, and for that reason its also been more rewarding. Good rogues have almost always been doing good dps.

We are now at a point where dps specs are getting closer and closer to eachother and at the same time classes with only 1 dps spec, has to fill multipled roles(cleave, aoe and single target) where as rogues usually have one for cleave, one for aoe and one for single target.

We are now at a point however where we dont really stand out on single target dps anymore, our cleave is semi decent only and our aoe spec is not near the top of the charts.

On top of this we are also melee in an already melee heavy group of classes(thats only getting melee heavier) with ranged often being prefered due to boss mechanics.

All other melee classes have either ranged specs, tank specs or healer specs to fall back on, but if we dont get chosen for our dps, we dont get chosen at all.


This is why the dps matters so much for rogues.

I agree wholeheartedly. I feel I should also add that if it sticks to one for cleave one for ST were fucked because of artifacts

[Deleted]

I agree wholeheartedly. I feel I should also add that if it sticks to one for cleave one for ST were fucked because of artifacts

Exactly. We cant just go balls out on one artifact and be good at both aoe, cleave and ST. We have to prioritise, and even when doing this we are only comparable to other classes who can do all three, and still have a different role as offspec.


Pick the player not the class was a good change imo. But it also seems to have some downsides

[Spriestlawl]

Exactly. We cant just go balls out on one artifact and be good at both aoe, cleave and ST. We have to prioritise, and even when doing this we are only comparable to other classes who can do all three, and still have a different role as offspec.


Pick the player not the class was a good change imo. But it also seems to have some downsides

There's not one class that's actually good at all 3 inside one spec. It used to be Unholy DK doing ridic cleave/single/aoe but Clawing Shadows nerf really scaled them back.

[Deleted]

There's not one class that's actually good at all 3 inside one spec. It used to be Unholy DK doing ridic cleave/single/aoe but Clawing Shadows nerf really scaled them back.

True but most are good at at least two of them AND have ofspecs that can tank or heal or ranged dps.

On the top of my head i think ww monks are looking good at all of them, if slightly lower on ST.

[Jaronicity]

There's not one class that's actually good at all 3 inside one spec. It used to be Unholy DK doing ridic cleave/single/aoe but Clawing Shadows nerf really scaled them back.

I agree and was going to say this but you beat me to it. I would have loved being good at 3 things at once and I thought they were doing that with Blood Sweat. When Assa had Blood Sweat, it was going to be my starting artifact because it did good ST, cleave, and probably pretty decent aoe via talents. I saw it as a jack of all trades spec and couldn't go wrong with it in case I ran into dungeon scenarios where I needed the aforementioned niches. I would always be doing at least OK in all situations. That said, in my opinion, it's unrealistic to expect a spec to "do well" at all three niches regardless of class. I hate niches and would rather just play a spec and have it do well at one thing and not be a hindrance at the other things. The early iteration of Assa was good at ST, good at cleaving, and presumably ok in aoe scenarios if specced for it. In that case, people might only pick the other artifacts at the start because of the gameplay, theme, or whatever. All that said, I played Sub on fights like Blast Furnace because there were already enough aoers in the group. Obviously I never topped on that fight because lolaoe, but things that needed to die, died quickly.

Currently, Assa is good ST and cleave. That's 2/3 things. Outlaw I can't really comment on, but from what I'm reading and based on these buffs, it's actually looking like the new jack of all trades spec. It'll be good aoe, good cleave, and good ST. Why else would we pick anything else if you're only concerned about numbers? We probably wouldn't. I don't want to use swords so that leaves me with Sub or Assa and I find I do ok with ShD fok in a group that I'm not being a plug and my ST is still strong when it needs to be. Cleave might not be as good as Assa (it's definitely more cumbersome) but it is workable.

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True but most are good at at least two of them AND have ofspecs that can tank or heal or ranged dps.

On the top of my head i think ww monks are looking good at all of them, if slightly lower on ST.

I think you're blowing the range thing out of proportion and this is coming from the days of earlier when mobs did 360 degree cleaves that melted your face. In fact, all these other classes have to level a second (or third) artifact in these cases as well. So if rogues have to level two weapons to be "good" at all the things, then someone like my brother has to level two (maybe even all three) to do good at all the stuff. He won't other than something to do because he only likes to play Enhancement.

[Pulikutai]

I think that's just a Rogue forum trait :P

After combing nearly every single page of this thread, I can confirm this to be the most accurate description for it.
Though no qualms nor am I denying it, as a Rogue main myself.

[Izenhart]

True but most are good at at least two of them AND have ofspecs that can tank or heal or ranged dps.

On the top of my head i think ww monks are looking good at all of them, if slightly lower on ST.

Good god so melodramatic

Rogues were brought to raids because of their utility, cheese mechanics and self sustaining kit, not because they topped the DPS meters

Rogues blow WWs out of the water and 9/10 they will be chosen over WWs. And Fury warriors. And Arms warriors. And Frost DKs. And Demon Hunters.

Ther's nothing wrong with Rogues in Legion and they're one of the Melee classes that has been looking the best

[Notter]

saying a spec shouldn't be good at all situations is a misconception, and wrong game design.
blizzards goal is to make each spec viable, especially now the artifact weapon.
if i'm not mistaken, they've commented about it, that it's not their intent to force you into powering more than 1 artifact.
this was around the time when Subtlety shurikan storm was buffed to be a viable AoE.

I would not be surprised to see a buff to assassination AoE in the near future.
it seems they first wanted to lower it's ST. (though the way they lowered it made me stop playing assassin for now...)


there are many classes with only one dps spec, and they usually have the ability to do both AoE and ST. to varying degrees.
so it's not like rogues are supposed to be forced into switching specs.

outlaw being so good at AoE just means that the other two will need to be adjusted.

[Wow]

Good god so melodramatic

Rogues were brought to raids because of their utility, cheese mechanics and self sustaining kit, not because they topped the DPS meters

Rogues blow WWs out of the water and 9/10 they will be chosen over WWs.

That's not what happened in highmaul. When ww had more dmg and rogues were low top guilds dropped rogues. Not saying this will be happening now but it was clear dmg matters more.

[Jaronicity]

Sometimes I like to think of it as George Orwell's Animal Farm: "All rogue specs are equal, but some are more equal than others."

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After combing nearly every single page of this thread, I can confirm this to be the most accurate description for it.
Though no qualms nor am I denying it, as a Rogue main myself.

It really is, but that's not to say other class forums are any different. My only experience is in the rogue forums and its all doom and gloom it seems.

[Notter]

It really is, but that's not to say other class forums are any different. My only experience is in the rogue forums and its all doom and gloom it seems.

You have missed the WW forums in the whole WoD expansion then :P

that being said.. we had a good reason to cry the sky is falling.

[omeomorfismo]

so, anyone at least know how download new simcraft? or i must compile the source from site?

and more important, how i can simulate without a talent?

[Deleted]

Is it only me, or after patch Venomous Wounds doesn't grant energy for every bleed tick? I feel so energy starved atm even with Venom Rush talent.

[Wow]

Is it only me, or after patch Venomous Wounds doesn't grant energy for every bleed tick? I feel so energy starved atm even with Venom Rush talent.

It does assassination is just that slow.

[Spriestlawl]

True but most are good at at least two of them AND have ofspecs that can tank or heal or ranged dps.

On the top of my head i think ww monks are looking good at all of them, if slightly lower on ST.

Offspecs sure.. we have offspecs as well. What's your point? That they'll spec into those? They'll still have unupgraded artifacts so what's the difference than us swapping to say outlaw? The argument flows in both directions.

I agree and was going to say this but you beat me to it. I would have loved being good at 3 things at once and I thought they were doing that with Blood Sweat.

...

Yah, I feel combat is extremely close and I might actually go combat just for the Mythic+ utility. Not to mention I've been doing really well on live with it. My issue is.. if sub or sin aren't significantly ahead, I'll probably go outlaw. Which is fine, I'd rather be able to do the other jobs. AOE as sin is abysmal.. actually the whole playstyle is garbage. Everything feels like it costs 75% of your energy and you're just spending so much time waiting/pooling. It's not really 'active' damage which sucks. Sub I do enjoy, I think the only thing lacking on sub is a tiny-itty-bit of more dmg, and an actual offensive CD. Right now it's just .. <steady> high/reasonable dps with a moderate amount of AOE. AOE is mainly just to get more SD charges though because you're definitely not doing enough to make a serious impact.

Also, I really like the RtB change.. it really brought things much closer overall and even SnD is reasonable now.

Good god so melodramatic

Rogues were brought to raids because of their utility, cheese mechanics and self sustaining kit, not because they topped the DPS meters

Rogues blow WWs out of the water and 9/10 they will be chosen over WWs. And Fury warriors. And Arms warriors. And Frost DKs. And Demon Hunters.

Ther's nothing wrong with Rogues in Legion and they're one of the Melee classes that has been looking the best

Yah, they're completely fine. In fact, they still have a slight edge over everyone except I think survival? (lol) and DH, but DH hasn't had any balancing and I can't see that Fel Rush / Momentum playstyle going live. Blizz is pretty anti-AIDS rotations recently, thankfully.

That's not what happened in highmaul. When ww had more dmg and rogues were low top guilds dropped rogues. Not saying this will be happening now but it was clear dmg matters more.

Rogues were abysmal because of secondary stat scaling and the fact that their first major weapon didn't drop till something like boss 6. Secondary scaling is much more in the sweet-zone right from the start now, and weapons are artifacts. This has contributed to rogues not starting terrible at the start which they were notorious for.

saying a spec shouldn't be good at all situations is a misconception, and wrong game design...

I disagree. I think the right design is what they "want" but they haven't been able to implement it for rogues. I think talents should dictate what role you're fulfilling. Heavy ST? Spec for it. Need partial AOE? Spec for it. Cleave? Spec for it. With some caveats.. an Outlaw rogue aoe should be better than say a spec'd Sub aoe, but not drastically. Rogue talents though have been an issue since the talent system was in place. They've had the worst talents, bar none, the entire system. I think the only thing I changed during progression was feint aoe dmg on reaver vs say Cheat Death. Occassionally I'd swap MFD as combat to Anticipation, but rarely. Sub and Sin were the same way. Even going into legion we don't swap talents much. It's a real issue honestly.

It does assassination is just that slow.

He's right. The spec is EXTREMELY slow. Sims have it at like a 45% waiting spec. Meaning you're spending 45% of a 450s fight waiting for either energy to pool, debuffs to dwindle before reapplication, etc. That's part of the high-cost abilities problem the spec has. Rupture should be toned down, Mutilate dropped in energy cost to dispatch levels (tweak dmg), and garrote to have a 13 sec CD with 15 sec duration (no pandemic). That alone would raise the playability of the spec to levels I'm pretty sure every rogue would greatly enjoy. It'd also have the added benefit of easing up pressure on Exsang so they could potentially buff it and better help secondary stat scaling for Sin later on. Agonizing poison should replace deadly but still do DoT dmg and increase poison dmg like it does. Bake in the two mechanics and tweak the dmg as needed giving a benefit later on to mastery and making it actually competitive to bleeds. Right now bleeds are considerably better even through the 2nd tier raiding. Also .. Sims have all three specs reasonably close through 2nd raid (T19M). Despite what people say.. scaling is just fine going that far. That means you'll have ample time to push that second artifact easily.

[Wow]

Rogues were abysmal because of secondary stat scaling and the fact that their first major weapon didn't drop till something like boss 6. Secondary scaling is much more in the sweet-zone right from the start now, and weapons are artifacts. This has contributed to rogues not starting terrible at the start which they were notorious for.

It doesn't matter why the whole point was that dmg mattered more than a "self sustaining kit".

[Spriestlawl]

It doesn't matter why the whole point was that dmg mattered more than a "self sustaining kit".

It does matter, rogues sucked between they had no access to damage........