Russia says it has foiled Ukrainian 'terror attack' plot in Crimea, two Russians died

[Hound Archon]

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The Russians were in Ukraine, I provided evidence to back it up. He chose to deflect.

You provided a statement made by the Ukrainean government, not evidence.

And I brought up a specific incident, one that you never managed to refute. Which means that my statement that Russian troops were in the country has been shown to be 100% correct.

You brought up the statement made by the Ukrainean government, which apparently never lies. I can only refute it with statements from the Russian government, which apparently lies all the time.

You do have me at a disadvantage, good sir. You win.

[Machismo]

You brought up the statement made by the Ukrainean government, which apparently never lies. I can only refute it with statements from the Russian government, which apparently lies all the time.

You do have me at a disadvantage, good sir. You win.

I never said that the Ukrainian government never lies, did I? I don't trust any government, much less a government agency that has been shown to lie a great deal (FSB). I'll stick with the evidence. When it comes to Ukraine and Russia, they don't much like each other right now. Would it surprise me if Ukraine was trying to subvert things in Crimea? Not at all. Of course, Russia does the same thing in Ukraine, and also did it in Crimea.

I said Russian troops were in Ukraine, and I backed it up. You can continue to try and deflect, but it won't change anything.

[Shalcker]

Well, "reverse cargo cult" is basically this line of thinking: "We have problems, but everyone else has exactly the same problems, they just hide them better". Or, "Westerners have the exact same technological level as us Papuans, they just use better decorations to hide it". Often cargo cult and reverse cargo cult go hand in hand, since they are just different sides of the same coin.

There is another stage to that, btw:
1) Let's build planes, since that's recipe to prosperity! Since we don't have aluminium, let's build them from sticks and straw!
2) Everyone is building planes out of straw! They just have better propaganda!
3) John, i've heard that some countries build planes out of straw. What are statistics for plane crashes in last 30 years there? What? None at all? Oh, then i have great business idea - let's build it here out of straw too! Clearly it's working for them! Just think of cost savings!

[Hound Archon]

I never said that the Ukrainian government never lies, did I? I don't trust any government, much less a government agency that has been shown to lie a great deal (FSB). I'll stick with the evidence. When it comes to Ukraine and Russia, they don't much like each other right now. Would it surprise me if Ukraine was trying to subvert things in Crimea? Not at all. Of course, Russia does the same thing in Ukraine, and also did it in Crimea.

Yep. Shenanigans all the way, over and through. And we only know what media tells us, which is not particularly trustworthy either.

I said Russian troops were in Ukraine, and I backed it up.

You backed it up with a questionable allegation from a partial source. It doesn't count.

At this stage, the only unquestionable proof of Russian presence in Ukraine would be Russian tanks rolling through the streets of Kiev and Putin proclaiming Ukraine to be a newly established Russian protectorate.

Which is not going to happen, thank God.

...I hope.

[Shalcker]

The Russians were in Ukraine, I provided evidence to back it up. He chose to deflect.

You started with post that i did not provide any facts! But instead of refuting ones presented by FSB (there is video linked in this thread), you chose to deflect...

[TwistedSkull]

Why should we take anything FSB said seriously?

[Kellhound]

Yeah, technically it's an act of war, hopefully the situation in Ukraine doesn't kick off again

Attacking your own inside occupied territory is a reaction to the territory being occupied.....

[Shalcker]

Why should we take anything FSB said seriously?

Why should we take <anything said by any government agency ever> seriously?

Because obviously every other government agency will act like it's true.

As seen by Russia pulling out of Normandy format Ukraine peace talks.

[Easo]

Yes yes, Ukraine has nothing better to do than stir up shit, when they are in the loser's position and simply cannot fight the Russia.
They are NOT that stupid and goverment would not give such orders.
Go away, please.

[May90]

Attacking your own inside occupied territory is a reaction to the territory being occupied.....

Yup, scorched earth tactic. Which, ironically, Russia has used extensively throughout its history.

[Shalcker]

Yes yes, Ukraine has nothing better to do than stir up shit, when they are in the loser's position and simply cannot fight the Russia.
They are NOT that stupid and goverment would not give such orders.
Go away, please.

Well, then their government is weak enough for people to act on their own... using government resources for terror attacks on neighbouring countries.

[Kellhound]

Wait, are you doing something else with evidence given by FSB? They also have shown passports, captured Ukrainian people in Russian Crimea, and shown gear used by Ukrainian military/special services, clearly onus of proving them wrong is on you!

Given how much similarity there is between Russian and Ukrainian equipment, that doesnt really say much, and everyone knows when conducting clandestine attacks you should always have your actual passport on you.....

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Yup, scorched earth tactic. Which, ironically, Russia has used extensively throughout its history.

Its one of their best, most reliable defenses.

[Fayolynn]

What level of evidence is required to prove that there were Russian troops in Ukraine?

[Berndorf]

Anyone who thinks western media is any way, shape or form more credible than its Russian counterparts has their head 6 feet under the sand with earmuffs on.

[Easo]

Well, then their government is weak enough for people to act on their own... using government resources for terror attacks on neighbouring countries.

Oh yes, like the all "volunteers" from Russia in Donbas? xD

[Ulmita]

Isn't the Crimean authorities openly blaming USA for this?

[zmp]

What level of evidence is required to prove that there were Russian troops in Ukraine?

Here in the West, we accept *.bmp files created from mspaint.exe. As long it has a caption that says "Russia entering Ukraine" or "RUSSIAN AGGRESSION", it will be sufficient enough as evidence. Plus it sells better in the objective™ news paper.

[May90]

Here in the West, we accept *.bmp files created from mspaint.exe. As long it has a caption that says "Russia entering Ukraine" or "RUSSIAN AGGRESSION", it will be sufficient enough as evidence. Plus it sells better in the objective™ news paper.

So you don't have an answer... Why waste time posting then?

[Deleted]

There was a vivid metaphor about this recently. It was that in taking Crimea without a land bridge to Russia, what Putin had done was like stealing a mobile phone without the charger. The peninsular is cut off from Russia and reliant for supplies and utilities on what comes through unfriendly Ukraine. Russia is planning to build a bridge to connect Crimea to Russia but I wonder if these accusations about Ukrainian aggression are a prelude to further Russian intervention in Crimea to seize Mariupol and connect Crimea to the motherland? He's got to know the West would do little to stop him. Perhaps the only solace is that such action might sink Putin's candidate for the White House, but then he's sinking so fast on his own, perhaps now is the hour?

[May90]

There was a vivid metaphor about this recently. It was that in taking Crimea without a land bridge to Russia, what Putin had done was like stealing a mobile phone without the charger. The peninsular is cut off from Russia and reliant for supplies and utilities on what comes through unfriendly Ukraine. Russia is planning to build a bridge to connect Crimea to Russia but I wonder if these accusations about Ukrainian aggression are a prelude to further Russian intervention in Crimea to seize Mariupol and connect Crimea to the motherland? He's got to know the West would do little to stop him. Perhaps the only solace is that such action might sink Putin's candidate for the White House, but then he's sinking so fast on his own, perhaps now is the hour?

Don't think he would risk it; Russian economy is already struggling, and further sanctions might destroy it completely. Probably, he will just build the bridge, spending as always 50 times as much money as its cost is.