Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Spriestlawl]

thats what hit and run is for
Or just dump hit and run (and lose 7.5% RT damage) and take grappling hook for mobility

yah.. sprints great but it's not the only thing you need. Aside from say zakuun you could probably get away with never having to use sprint in raid. It'll be harder to remember to save it for dps as opposed to using it all the time lol

[WskyDK]

yah.. sprints great but it's not the only thing you need. Aside from say zakuun you could probably get away with never having to use sprint in raid. It'll be harder to remember to save it for dps as opposed to using it all the time lol

I really like the idea of the new legendaries, and Thraxie's Tricksy Treads fit the idea of altering gameplay (for some specs) for a nice trade-off.

Some people may just leave the Ravenholdt ring on and forget about it (15% bonus damage in a front cone is pretty beastly)

[shaunika123]

thats what hit and run is for
Or just dump hit and run (and lose 7.5% RT damage) and take grappling hook for mobility

yeah but if i dont take HnR then outside of sprint or the occasional stampeding roar i'll never benefit from the legendary at all.
i guess on patchwerk fights (maybe ursoc and nythendra but even on them sprint is pretty nice to have) it's good but i just dont like it, then again all of them feel lackluster so there's that.

[Zoopercat]

@Spriestlawl: I did a super fast set of sims - not sure if it's the final gear you'd want, but I swapped in the legendary boots and did the RtB tests.

EDIT: Updated with Hit and Run Talent.
SnD: 224.9k
Never Reroll: 225.3k
Always Shark: 223k
Shark or any 2 buffs: 232k
Any 2 buffs: 233.7k

@osicat - I've been trying to get an answer. I just tweeted it to Warcraft Devs, I'll see if they respond there. My GUESS is they missed the actual buff, but I am not 100% sure, which is why I keep trying to track this down. Some day, some day I hope to be SURE! lol.

Edit: I also made a post in the bug forum, which I've been directed to by a couple Blizz people, ensuring me they check it often.

[Spriestlawl]

@Spriestlawl: I did a super fast set of sims - not sure if it's the final gear you'd want, but I swapped in the legendary boots and did the RtB tests.

Fish for any shark combo: 219k
No Rerolls: 220k
Shark or any 2 buffs: 226.7k
Any 2+ buffs: 228.6k

Slice and Dice: 221k
@osicat - I've been trying to get an answer. I just tweeted it to Warcraft Devs, I'll see if they respond there. My GUESS is they missed the actual buff, but I am not 100% sure, which is why I keep trying to track this down. Some day, some day I hope to be SURE! lol.

I got almost the exact same thing, so we're on the same page it looks. I tweeted also, no response yet.

[broggernaut]

@Spriestlawl: I did a super fast set of sims - not sure if it's the final gear you'd want, but I swapped in the legendary boots and did the RtB tests.

Fish for any shark combo: 219k
No Rerolls: 220k
Shark or any 2 buffs: 226.7k
Any 2+ buffs: 228.6k

Slice and Dice: 221k
@osicat - I've been trying to get an answer. I just tweeted it to Warcraft Devs, I'll see if they respond there. My GUESS is they missed the actual buff, but I am not 100% sure, which is why I keep trying to track this down. Some day, some day I hope to be SURE! lol.

This should be done with Hit and Run as a talent, not with Grappling Hook.

[Zoopercat]

@broggernaut I updated my post with the Hit and Run Talent. Here's the results.

SnD: 224.9k
Never Reroll: 225.3k
Always Shark: 223k
Shark or any 2 buffs: 232k
Any 2 buffs: 233.7k

- - - Updated - - -

Of course, now that I made a post on the official bug forums, I'm seeing people say after the server restarts, RT and BtE are fixed (actually buffed). I am not able to test it myself right now, but will do so later tonight.

[broggernaut]

@broggernaut I updated my post with the Hit and Run Talent. Here's the results.

SnD: 224.9k
Never Reroll: 225.3k
Always Shark: 223k
Shark or any 2 buffs: 232k
Any 2 buffs: 233.7k

That was fast

Is DfA really better than MfD? I was under the impression MfD was stronger, but I'm very possibly wrong.

[Zoopercat]

I can do MfD. I just picked one that wasn't Slice and Dice. For those of you here who don't know, I'm NOT a rogue expert. But I am a data, deep-dive-research and simulation expert. So sometimes you have to spell out the tests for me

Want MfD with just the 2 buff option, or all RtB options again?

[broggernaut]

I can do MfD. I just picked one that wasn't Slice and Dice. For those of you here who don't know, I'm NOT a rogue expert. But I am a data, deep-dive-research and simulation expert. So sometimes you have to spell out the tests for me

Want MfD with just the 2 buff option, or all RtB options again?

Let's look at all of them. We should also look at the difference between all 3 talents in the first row, Ghostly Strike, Swordmaster, and Quick Draw

[Zoopercat]

So we have a batch simulator coming next week that will automate this. In the meantime, when I look at all 3 of the first row, which one would you like me to hold constant in the last row? I can run these later tonight after dinner and some more rogue testing on the possible hotfix updates

If you don't want to wait, it's easy to test, promise!! Go to the blog post, and scroll to the part where I embedded a video. It should explain most of the stuff (I hope).

[Spriestlawl]

I can do MfD. I just picked one that wasn't Slice and Dice. For those of you here who don't know, I'm NOT a rogue expert. But I am a data, deep-dive-research and simulation expert. So sometimes you have to spell out the tests for me

Want MfD with just the 2 buff option, or all RtB options again?

You're doing great lol we love you..

Apparently Run Through was updated but I'm unable to check .. can anyone confirm it was it's dmg increased?

[Deleted]

@broggernaut I updated my post with the Hit and Run Talent. Here's the results.

SnD: 224.9k
Never Reroll: 225.3k
Always Shark: 223k
Shark or any 2 buffs: 232k
Any 2 buffs: 233.7k

- - - Updated - - -

Of course, now that I made a post on the official bug forums, I'm seeing people say after the server restarts, RT and BtE are fixed (actually buffed). I am not able to test it myself right now, but will do so later tonight.

Aha. Meaning its 120 intendent or that its now moar? Is it possible för me to test this and come back with resultat? When was the servers restarted? This shuld mean we land on about the same dmg numbers as assasin/sub but bigger spread.

[Spriestlawl]

Aha. Meaning its 120 intendent or that its now moar? Is it possible för me to test this and come back with resultat? When was the servers restarted? This shuld mean we land on about the same dmg numbers as assasin/sub but bigger spread.

Spread should actually be less I believe. It was 120% before they said it was getting buffed 25%, we've gotten no word. I actually just looked on beta.. Naked, no talents and it was calculating at exactly 1.9997, so effectively 120%. We've been within a few % since Exsang was tuned back into reasonable levels. This actually SHOULD put combat slightly ahead, but until we get actual numbers we don't know. If anyone wants to datamine them that'd be lovely, but right now from what I saw when I logged in I don't believe it's active.

[Zoopercat]

@Spriestlawl I believe it's update on live now (but beta isn't getting hotfixes according to some people). I haven't tested this myself yet, but I will tonight. But I am hearing reports on it being 150% now.

- - - Updated - - -

For those of you looking to do your own tests, here are some quick instructions. Once you walk through the setup, you'll see these tests can all be done in 5 minutes. IT's easy once you do the first one, promise. And it's all web based too.

1. Watch this crash course video, stay to the end, as it quickly goes over some Rotation logic stuff.
2. Click on this link to get the rotation I'm using. At the top, click 'copy' so you can edit it. The click Edit... and look for the RtB options (all but 1 will be grayed out). The comments under each one tell you what they do. Turn one on at a time, disabling the others. Here's a 2 minute video explaining this process.
3. Click on this report link. Scroll down to the character section, right above it, click the "Simulate this Character" link. That copies all gear, talents and artifact stuff. Then you can change the talents or whatever you want.
4. On the simulation setup screen, on the right there is a drop down for rotations. Pick the one you copied. Click Simulate! Pro tip: At the top, save this report to your favorites with a smart name.

NOW to change the RtB rotation: do as that video suggested in Step 2. Save the rotation. Return to the setup screen and click simulate again. No need to change anything else, as it will call the updated version of your rotation. Make sense?

[Spriestlawl]

@Spriestlawl I believe it's update on live now (but beta isn't getting hotfixes according to some people). I haven't tested this myself yet, but I will tonight. But I am hearing reports on it being 150% now.

- - - Updated - - -

For those of you looking to do your own tests, here are some quick instructions. Once you walk through the setup, you'll see these tests can all be done in 5 minutes. IT's easy once you do the first one, promise. And it's all web based too.

1. Watch this crash course video, stay to the end, as it quickly goes over some Rotation logic stuff.
2. Click on this link to get the rotation I'm using. At the top, click 'copy' so you can edit it. The click Edit... and look for the RtB options (all but 1 will be grayed out). The comments under each one tell you what they do. Turn one on at a time, disabling the others. Here's a 2 minute video explaining this process.
3. Click on this report link. Scroll down to the character section, right above it, click the "Simulate this Character" link. That copies all gear, talents and artifact stuff. Then you can change the talents or whatever you want.
4. On the simulation setup screen, on the right there is a drop down for rotations. Pick the one you copied. Click Simulate! Pro tip: At the top, save this report to your favorites with a smart name.

NOW to change the RtB rotation: do as that video suggested in Step 2. Save the rotation. Return to the setup screen and click simulate again. No need to change anything else, as it will call the updated version of your rotation. Make sense?

Another sim people might want to look at for outlaw is RtB with the boots, keeping an eye on True Bearing and it's impact on sprint.

If 1.5 is the case for Run Through the following is what you'll see likely in sims (these are rough sims/APL and not finalized by any means, they are to provide a current reference point)...

PRE RAID (840 ilvl 870 weapons)
Outlaw - 244k
Sin - 220k
Sub - 210k

Roughly 14% gap between them

THROUGH T19 M (Full Mythic gear, unoptimized legs)
Outlaw - 337k
Sin - 330k
Sub - 324k

Roughly 3.5% gap between them

Did some extrapolation and with a few WF/Socket pieces Sub continues to close the gap. If no other changes take place all three specs are viable, sub will be really strong after tier 2. Outlaw varies at pre-raid from 184k to 307k, at T19M it's 260k to 420k. Approx +/- 50k (pre-raid) and 70k (T19M).

This also doesn't account for outlaw boots/different spec, or fishing RtB. Those are marginal increases and don't really care about at this point.

I foresee some buffs to sub coming, nothing major, just minor things. Probably a slight increase to either Evisc or Nightblade, but even Backstab could be in the works as it's easier to tune that without it scaling drastically later on. A 50% increase in backstab damage would net about 3% overall damage putting it right on point at T19M. Unless something drastic changes though, it's very likely all three specs will be reasonable going into legion. My best guess is our lowest spec is still 5th ish for ST melee, but we've seen no buffs to sub and no nerfs to DH (even though they openly said they dislike the current top spec playstyle). Lots of things in flux so, be open minded and not lash out at the changes.

[Zoopercat]

Here is the updated blog post for RtB and image.


(I can try to do some of those other tests tomorrow, sorry I got tied up in some other stuff tonight).

[marinara42]

Here is the and image.

(I can try to do some of those other tests tomorrow, sorry I got tied up in some other stuff tonight).

Does the simulator take into account the synergy between DFA, Anticipation and Ruthlessness (in that it gives more Combo Points back if used at higher combo points e.g. using DFA at 8 Combo Points will leave you with 7 afterwards)?

[lowkeii1]

Another sim people might want to look at for outlaw is RtB with the boots, keeping an eye on True Bearing and it's impact on sprint.

If 1.5 is the case for Run Through the following is what you'll see likely in sims (these are rough sims/APL and not finalized by any means, they are to provide a current reference point)...

PRE RAID (840 ilvl 870 weapons)
Outlaw - 244k
Sin - 220k
Sub - 210k

Roughly 14% gap between them

THROUGH T19 M (Full Mythic gear, unoptimized legs)
Outlaw - 337k
Sin - 330k
Sub - 324k

Roughly 3.5% gap between them

Did some extrapolation and with a few WF/Socket pieces Sub continues to close the gap. If no other changes take place all three specs are viable, sub will be really strong after tier 2. Outlaw varies at pre-raid from 184k to 307k, at T19M it's 260k to 420k. Approx +/- 50k (pre-raid) and 70k (T19M).

This also doesn't account for outlaw boots/different spec, or fishing RtB. Those are marginal increases and don't really care about at this point.

I foresee some buffs to sub coming, nothing major, just minor things. Probably a slight increase to either Evisc or Nightblade, but even Backstab could be in the works as it's easier to tune that without it scaling drastically later on. A 50% increase in backstab damage would net about 3% overall damage putting it right on point at T19M. Unless something drastic changes though, it's very likely all three specs will be reasonable going into legion. My best guess is our lowest spec is still 5th ish for ST melee, but we've seen no buffs to sub and no nerfs to DH (even though they openly said they dislike the current top spec playstyle). Lots of things in flux so, be open minded and not lash out at the changes.

Been playing with legendary boots/sprint for a few hours now and getting some great numbers on my 844 rogue, much higher then your sims. really excited about outlaws potential going into live.

im guessing worgen will almost certainly be the go to outlaw race once you get boots thanks to darkflight as well?

[kumarshah]

I am trying to get a feel of Outlaw as a spec, is it a good idea to do so with two daggers or wait for a Slow MH drop?