Buff heroic or make 10 man mythic

[Flower Milk]

Either of these needs to be done or it will just be a repeat of WoD again with raiding guilds falling apart en masse struggling to maintain a 20 man mythic roster and already having long cleared heroic and having nothing to do progression wise. And what a lot of people don't realize is that when this happened in WoD, it didn't just hurt mythic raiders, it hurt raiders, non raiders, everyone. Because guilds aren't just made up of raiders, and a lot of people didn't just leave their guilds and find new ones, a lot of people just ended up getting sick of joining guilds that broke up and left the game all together.

Links to highly rated threads from WoD about this issue:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/18596067834
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/19288929186
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...roy-your-guild

I want this expansion to succeed, it's looking pretty good so far. But if Blizzard doesn't address this issue from the previous expansion I just don't see that happening, it led to a lot of people unsubbing in WoD. And now that they've returned it could just happen all over again. I see so many people recruiting for guilds on my server and I'm hopeful about the prospect, but at the same time I'm scared because of this issue.

[Flower Milk]

The reason why raiding guilds fallen appart was/is not the roster, neither is the number 10 gonna fix this magicly. the magical solution to it was not reducing from 40 to 25 to 20 to 10 either

That is why I proposed an either. I'm realistic and I know Blizzard is probably not going to make a 10 man mythic at this point. But they could buff heroic to make it last longer for a lot of people who could not maintain a 20 man roster and thus still have something to do within 2 months of the raid release. So people aren't just leaving the game within 2 months and guilds are falling apart everywhere like we had in WoD.

[Cracked]

No, thanks.

Either of these needs to be done or it will just be a repeat of WoD again with raiding guilds falling apart en masse struggling to maintain a 20 man mythic roster and already having long cleared heroic and having nothing to do progression wise.

Not a format issue, the above did not happen much in HFC, but it did in HM and BRF, but guess why, half the damn population left, so obviously teams had to merge and fall apart.

And what a lot of people don't realize is that when this happened in WoD, it didn't just hurt mythic raiders, it hurt raiders, non raiders, everyone. Because guilds aren't just made up of raiders, and a lot of people didn't just leave their guilds and find new ones, a lot of people just ended up getting sick of joining guilds that broke up and left the game all together.

Yes, but you are blowing it out of proportion. It's not cool when your team falls apart because you lack people, but it's been happening since forever. Again, blame people leaving, not the format.

I want this expansion to succeed, it's looking pretty good so far. But if Blizzard doesn't address this issue from the previous expansion I just don't see that happening, it led to a lot of people unsubbing in WoD. And now that they've returned it could just happen all over again. I see so many people recruiting for guilds on my server and I'm hopeful about the prospect, but at the same time I'm scared because of this issue.

Don't you see yourself? Guilds are recruiting, because people are coming back to try out Legion. And people will leave some time after release again, and guilds will waste away again, but it's been this way at the very least since early Wrath, so no need to worry. If you want a stable team, I recommend you find a long standing guild rather than a new and flashy one, even if you see it as better.

[Moozart]

Either of these needs to be done or it will just be a repeat of WoD again with raiding guilds falling apart en masse struggling to maintain a 20 man mythic roster and already having long cleared heroic and having nothing to do progression wise. And what a lot of people don't realize is that when this happened in WoD, it didn't just hurt mythic raiders, it hurt raiders, non raiders, everyone. Because guilds aren't just made up of raiders, and a lot of people didn't just leave their guilds and find new ones, a lot of people just ended up getting sick of joining guilds that broke up and left the game all together.

Links to highly rated threads from WoD about this issue:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/18596067834
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/19288929186
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...roy-your-guild

I want this expansion to succeed, it's looking pretty good so far. But if Blizzard doesn't address this issue from the previous expansion I just don't see that happening, it led to a lot of people unsubbing in WoD. And now that they've returned it could just happen all over again. I see so many people recruiting for guilds on my server and I'm hopeful about the prospect, but at the same time I'm scared because of this issue.

Do you have an stats or numbers to back up how many people "unsubbed" for these reasons?

im willing to bet only a small percentage at best left for these reasons.

[Flower Milk]

No, thanks.



Not a format issue, the above did not happen much in HFC, but it did in HM and BRF, but guess why, half the damn population left, so obviously teams had to merge and fall apart.



Yes, but you are blowing it out of proportion. It's not cool when your team falls apart because you lack people, but it's been happening since forever. Again, blame people leaving, not the format.



Don't you see yourself? Guilds are recruiting, because people are coming back to try out Legion. And people will leave some time after release again, and guilds will waste away again, but it's been this way at the very least since early Wrath, so no need to worry. If you want a stable team, I recommend you find a long standing guild rather than a new and flashy one, even if you see it as better.

People left because their guild fell apart. And they got sick of trying to find new ones when they just kept falling apart. It wasn't just newly formed guilds falling apart either, it was guilds that had been around since Vanilla, BC, Wrath, etc. This was an enormous problem in WoD and Blizzard still hasn't addressed it unless they've buffed heroic to counter it and just not said anything about it. There is an enormous gap in between heroic and mythic for a large portion of the raiding player base, people who used to raid 10 man heroic. The content just does not last long enough to continue to have raid progression for these people, and they cannot maintain a 20 man mythic roster.

[Flower Milk]

Do you have an stats or numbers to back up how many people "unsubbed" for these reasons?

im willing to bet only a small percentage at best left for these reasons.

Go to wowprogress.com and see how many guilds fell apart in the first 2 raid tiers of WoD compared to MoP. There used to be like 10-15 heroic raiding guilds on most servers, and now there are 1-3 mythic guilds on most servers. Obviously it differs depending on if the server is high pop or low pop, but I'm going off the server I play on which is a pretty middle ground medium server and that's what happened in WoD.

[Cracked]

People left because their guild fell apart. And they got sick of trying to find new ones when they just kept falling apart. It wasn't just newly formed guilds falling apart either, it was guilds that had been around since Vanilla, BC, Wrath, etc. This was an enormous problem in WoD and Blizzard still hasn't addressed it unless they've buffed heroic to counter it and just not said anything about it. There is an enormous gap in between heroic and mythic for a large portion of the raiding player base, people who used to raid 10 man heroic. The content just does not last long enough to continue to have raid progression for these people, and they cannot maintain a 20 man mythic roster.

You got quite the issue here mate, so people left because their teams fell apart, but obviously their teams fell apart because people left? Yeah ok.

No, it's the simple reason that WoD was a pile of steaming shit and raiding wasn't enough to save it. Which started a cascade effect.

[Uurdz]

The reason why raiding guilds fallen appart was/is not the roster, neither is the number 10 gonna fix this magicly. the magical solution to it was not reducing from 40 to 25 to 20 to 10 either

I agree that heroic was too easy. Too many mechanics in heroic can be out healed/out damaged which then isn't possible in mythic. My guild fell apart for traditional reasons (losing our best players to further progressed guilds) but a little bit due to the steeper curve with mythic. Heroic Cho'gal(?) took a few attempts but largely it was a cakewalk. Mythic Korgath was easy but then the others were too punishing.

I would like to see more mechanics unavoidable in heroic. Say if 1/10 must be avoided in normal, 5/10musy be avoided in heroic and 9/10 must be avoided in mythic

[Ealyssa]

No, it's the simple reason that WoD was a pile of steaming shit and raiding wasn't enough to save it. Which started a cascade effect.

This is actualy the only realistic analysis that can be made.

[ComputerNerd]

The problem is the changing from one to another.
That is what 20m mythic is part of a solution for.
A fixed size.

Mythic is meant to be the consistent difficulty.
Flex can't ever scale properly, nor can even two sizes.
It has to be one size to be consistent.

[Flower Milk]

You got quite the issue here mate, so people left because their teams fell apart, but obviously their teams fell apart because people left? Yeah ok.

No, it's the simple reason that WoD was a pile of steaming shit and raiding wasn't enough to save it. Which started a cascade effect.

No I said their guilds fell apart because they had nothing to do after clearing heroic within 2 months and not being able to maintain a 20 man roster to progress in mythic. The raid content (heroic) needs to be buffed to last longer or this will just happen again in Legion.

[tehdef]

either of these needs to be done or it will just be a repeat of wod again with raiding guilds falling apart en masse struggling to maintain a 20 man mythic roster and already having long cleared heroic and having nothing to do progression wise. And what a lot of people don't realize is that when this happened in wod, it didn't just hurt mythic raiders, it hurt raiders, non raiders, everyone. Because guilds aren't just made up of raiders, and a lot of people didn't just leave their guilds and find new ones, a lot of people just ended up getting sick of joining guilds that broke up and left the game all together.

Links to highly rated threads from wod about this issue:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/18596067834
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/19288929186
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...roy-your-guild

i want this expansion to succeed, it's looking pretty good so far. But if blizzard doesn't address this issue from the previous expansion i just don't see that happening, it led to a lot of people unsubbing in wod. And now that they've returned it could just happen all over again. I see so many people recruiting for guilds on my server and i'm hopeful about the prospect, but at the same time i'm scared because of this issue.

hey look everyone a professional game developer!

[Flower Milk]

Wouldnt say that, especially in BRF case there were guild breaking bosses in there, its no cooincedne that the whole Raid got nerfed massivly when they upgraded all the itemlevels for loot in their.

- - - Updated - - -



no answer for me? >:

It's a combination of both roster requirement and heroic not lasting long enough for them to continue to progress in, that is why a ton of guilds fell apart in WoD. It's difficult to continue scheduling raid nights when you clear heroic in one night and have it on farm and you have to continue cancelling raids because you just don't have enough people to continue progression. That is where a lot of guilds ended up in WoD, it was a terrible spot to be in. If Blizzard doesn't buff heroic to last longer than it did in WoD, it will just happen all over again.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

The reason why raiding guilds fallen appart was/is not the roster, neither is the number 10 gonna fix this magicly. the magical solution to it was not reducing from 40 to 25 to 20 to 10 either

The reason why raiding guilds fell apart is 100% the fact they removed 10 man mythic. It killed my guild, it killed countless others, and yes bringing 10 man mythic back would fix it...

[Moozart]

Go to wowprogress.com and see how many guilds fell apart in the first 2 raid tiers of WoD compared to MoP. There used to be like 10-15 heroic raiding guilds on most servers, and now there are 1-3 mythic guilds on most servers. Obviously it differs depending on if the server is high pop or low pop, but I'm going off the server I play on which is a pretty middle ground medium server and that's what happened in WoD.

Ive been raiding since Vanilla, do you know how many guilds fell apart in vanilla just in MC and BWL alone?

[Flower Milk]

Again, you neither providing data or not countering my arguments i brought up. Thats not other then saying all the people have quit wow because there was no flying. It seems like everyone news the reason why everyone quits appreantly without showing data

Go to wowprogress.com and see how many guilds fell apart in the first 2 raid tiers of WoD compared to MoP.

I already addressed that.

[Flurryfang]

Either of these needs to be done or it will just be a repeat of WoD again with raiding guilds falling apart en masse struggling to maintain a 20 man mythic roster and already having long cleared heroic and having nothing to do progression wise. And what a lot of people don't realize is that when this happened in WoD, it didn't just hurt mythic raiders, it hurt raiders, non raiders, everyone. Because guilds aren't just made up of raiders, and a lot of people didn't just leave their guilds and find new ones, a lot of people just ended up getting sick of joining guilds that broke up and left the game all together.

Links to highly rated threads from WoD about this issue:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/18596067834
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/19288929186
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...roy-your-guild

I want this expansion to succeed, it's looking pretty good so far. But if Blizzard doesn't address this issue from the previous expansion I just don't see that happening, it led to a lot of people unsubbing in WoD. And now that they've returned it could just happen all over again. I see so many people recruiting for guilds on my server and I'm hopeful about the prospect, but at the same time I'm scared because of this issue.

Guilds will always, no matter the raid size, have trouble getting enough players for their guilds. People leave for better guilds, people quit for numerous reasons, so it is always hard to fill a raid roster. Unless the games playerbase is increased by 150%, then doing the 10 man mythic thing is not gonna do anything other then making mythic less awesome. Raiding is always more epic when there is more people, so by cutting the team in half is gonna be a heavy price to pay for maybe a few guilds on each server being able to go mythic.

But i think you are missing something here. A lot of people are not really that into the entire mythic experience, where you min-max your character, get the spec with the highest possible dps/healing and go raiding 3-5 times a week just to be able to get the boss into their fingers. There is no reason to make it easier to get into mythic, because the people who really want to raid mythic, and who can get far in that difficulty with skill, are often ready to find a guild, with people who can do that difficulty. Most heroic difficulty guilds will never get very far in mythic, since it requires so much work and their playerbase is simply not hardcore enough.

When you go to many of these forums, quite a lot of the posters are semi-hardcore players complaining that they can't get up and compete with the hardcore crowd. They say, that they really want the content, but they will fail at the content with laughing results. So, as there has been said many times before, if you don't have the time, energy or will to recruit enough people to go mythic, then you would not do well even if it was 10 man.

All in all, don't try to downsize raiding just because you can't gather the people. Don't complain to blizzard around the raid size, but more about the amount of free players on your servers. It will be a sad day if Blizzard ever does away with 20 man mythic raiding, because it will pretty much remove the last awesomeness of WoW raiding.

[Moozart]

I already addressed that.

that is still not proof thats the reason, all that will show is that people left and guilds got smaller. Not a single thing shows that raiding was the cause of the leaving. Game is old, people leave for all kinds of reasons

[Flower Milk]

No you didnt, you simply show they was a regression in raiding guilds, nowhere there is stated why. For example at the same time 1. the numbers of subs declined the whole time 2. the raid got nerfed so it seems it was to difficult

And you did not answer my other posts with the other brought up arguments either


edit: what @Moozart said

I also linked multiple huge threads in my OP full of people saying the same thing that I am saying, that their guilds died because of clearing heroic early and then not being able to maintain 20 people to progress in Mythic.

[Flurryfang]

The reason why raiding guilds fell apart is 100% the fact they removed 10 man mythic. It killed my guild, it killed countless others, and yes bringing 10 man mythic back would fix it...

That might be right for your guild, but don't put a fact on a situational source. Several guilds on my server had more problem holding themselfs together because of bad content keeping players away. Many players don't just raid in WoW, so when they face an expansion, where that is the only thing they can focus on, their will to play goes away pretty quickly. My father, who raided even though he is an old man now, stopped because his professions became lame and unneeded in WoD. He mostly used his day doing proffesion stuff and farming the AH, but with the huge influx of base crafting items, it just became too boring for him.

So its not 100% fact.