Hotfix: Increased Health in low level classic dungeons

[Marston]

So, I just saw that the newest hotfix increased health of low level dungeon enemies. Since I ran a few level ~20-25 dungeons today, I went back on another toon and took a quick look. I went into Ragefire, Blackfathom and Stockades. So far, it seems like health was increased (depending on the mob/boss) by somwhere around 33% to over 100%. Bosses and mobs in Blackfathom (which had really low health pools to begin with) now have around 3k+ for mobs and ~20k-27k per boss. Before that, mob health was under 2k and bosses had... 10-12k?

Anyways, it's not much, but it's a start. While bosses will still die within ~20 seconds, it will be a bit better. Has anyone of you guys done a low level dungeon after the hotfix? Does it feel any different at all (I guess casters can now do 1-2 casts before mobs are dead... xD)? Do you see this as an improvement? I at least think this is a start. It's not much and the world and dungeons are not threatening enough - they could probably bump up health by another 50% overall in the low level zones - but I am happy to see at least some improvements in this area.

[Imnick]

Honestly I think they need to target nerfs at Heirlooms before targeting buffs at dungeons, they shouldn't be too difficult to run for a fresh character.
Heirlooms imo should be ON PAR with the gear you would otherwise be wearing, not dramatically stronger. The experience boost is the important part.

[Marston]

Didn't they buff enemies in late WoD? So far, leveling a new mage, I am not really seeing it. If I had to take a guess, I would say the new prune/talent system wrecked difficulty yet again to make it easier.

[Cracked]

Honestly I think they need to target nerfs at Heirlooms before targeting buffs at dungeons, they shouldn't be too difficult to run for a fresh character.
Heirlooms imo should be ON PAR with the gear you would otherwise be wearing, not dramatically stronger. The experience boost is the important part.

They were supposed to be on par with blues of that level. The problem on lower levels is that often enough you are not supposed to be wearing blues or any gear in that slot for that matter (like in vanilla you didn't get a reasonably good helm until levels 35ish from normal play). Another problem is that while getting a blue for your level (or usually a couple below you) boosts you a lot, that boost blends away in a couple of levels, whereas heirlooms scale with you so you get a constant boost.

Imo heirlooms should give no stats at all. Take a pick - more xp, or easier leveling.

[Ealyssa]

they shouldn't be too difficult to run for a fresh character.

And they aren't. Blizzard isn't balancing old dungeon for heirloom. They are doing balance because of 6 years of mechanical change to classes, spells and specs.
Old dungeon never followed these change. Blizzard is finally trying to make the low level experience interesting again. And this has nothing to do with heirloom (which cannot be worn by a new player, and is a choice).

[Imnick]

And they aren't. Blizzard isn't balancing old dungeon for heirloom. They are doing balance because of 6 years of mechanical change to classes, spells and specs.
Old dungeon never followed these change. Blizzard is finally trying to make the low level experience interesting again. And this has nothing to do with heirloom (which cannot be worn by a new player, and is a choice).

In dungeons, encountering players with Heirlooms isn't a choice.
Heirlooms ruin low level dungeons, because they make characters dramatically more powerful than they should be, trivialising every encounter and leaving non-heirloomed players with nothing to do.
Heirlooms need to be toned down to reasonable levels before the dungeon experience while levelling can ever really work properly, because as a new player you feel far and away the most useless person in a dungeon group, when everyone else has heirlooms. Hell, if you're a healer and the tank has heirlooms, they sometimes don't need you for anything.

While players have overpowered heirloom items, dungeons can never really be tuned properly. If they are tuned for players without them, they will suck for players without them, because the players with them will steamroll the content and they're completely extraneous. If they are tuned for player with them... they'll still suck for players without them. It's a lose/lose situation.
Heirlooms are just that powerful at low levels.

They also ruin low level world pvp because players without heirlooms have no chance of winning against people who have them, and also do not get a choice not to encounter players wearing them, but that's a separate issue not relevant to this topic (which is about dungeons).

[Marston]

In dungeons, encountering players with Heirlooms isn't a choice.
Heirlooms ruin low level dungeons, because they make characters dramatically more powerful than they should be, trivialising every encounter and leaving non-heirloomed players with nothing to do.
Heirlooms need to be toned down to reasonable levels before the dungeon experience while levelling can ever really work properly, because as a new player you feel far and away the most useless person in a dungeon group, when everyone else has heirlooms. Hell, if you're a healer and the tank has heirlooms, they sometimes don't need you for anything.

I am leveling a mage. Normal mobs are dead before my cast is finished. I agree that heirlooms should be toned down a bit, but even without them dungeons were ridiculously easy. If dungeons are only somewhat challenging if you 1-2 man them, something is seriously wrong. So as said, I am happy to see at least some changes.

[Ealyssa]

Heirlooms ruin low level dungeons, because they make characters dramatically more powerful than they should be

Easy fix : don't use them.

Crazy I know "Having options" and "different liking".

[Imnick]

Easy fix : don't use them.

Crazy I know "Having options" and "different liking".

Did you forget to read most of that post, Ealyssa, or are you just pretending to be dense because you think it is funny?

In dungeons, encountering players with Heirlooms isn't a choice.
While players have overpowered heirloom items, dungeons can never really be tuned properly. If they are tuned for players without them, they will suck for players without them, because the players with them will steamroll the content and they're completely extraneous. If they are tuned for player with them... they'll still suck for players without them. It's a lose/lose situation.

You don't get to pick what heirlooms other people are wearing. You don't get to pick to only be queued with people who are not wearing them.
People who dramatically overgear the dungeon make it impossible to tune to create a satisfying experience for everyone.
The stat boost has to go.

[Jetstream]

Easy fix : don't use them.

Crazy I know "Having options" and "different liking".

Er, mate, him not using them doesn't do anything about the other four people using them.

Dungeons, not run in a vacuum.

[Imnick]

I am leveling a mage. Normal mobs are dead before my cast is finished. I agree that heirlooms should be toned down a bit, but even without them dungeons were ridiculously easy. If dungeons are only somewhat challenging if you 1-2 man them, something is seriously wrong. So as said, I am happy to see at least some changes.

It is a good start definitely, and I hope they iterate on it more. I've been trying to get my spouse into WoW and the low level dungeon experience right now is just awful.
I just can't see how they can ever actually decide if they've tuned a dungeon properly until they fix the ridiculous item level boost over what you should have that most of the playerbase runs with. If they tune for a baseline without heirlooms, they haven't really fixed anything, because the people with heirlooms will still be making it trivial.

[Ealyssa]

Dungeons, not run in a vacuum.

Maybe play a solo game then ? Where you won't feel the need to dictate how other players need to enjoy their game.

Barely anybody play without heirloom, so barely anybody is in queue without heirloom. Simple as that.
And if you really are desperate about your precious leveling experience use the LFD tool to search like minded people ?

But I guess I triggered to much people on this thread. "Oh no, everyone has to play the way I want". Childish, if not pathetic.

[effs]

Yeah just doing Gnomeregan right now as prot with full heirlooms. Got in a situation where they pulled a bunch of mobs from jumping down...still managed to solo around 10 easily. It's a start though :P End boss has 32k HP and it took 38 secs to kill it.

[PragmaticGamer]

You don't get to pick to only be queued with people who are not wearing them.
People who dramatically overgear the dungeon make it impossible to tune to create a satisfying experience for everyone.
The stat boost has to go.

Question:

Can the Group Finder be used to set up a group that DOESN'T use heirlooms?

Then, when you've got a full group, queue up for random dungeons?

[Jetstream]

Maybe play a solo game then ? Where you won't feel the need to dictate how other players need to enjoy their game.

Barely anybody play without heirloom, so barely anybody is in queue without heirloom. Simple as that.
And if you really are desperate about your precious leveling experience use the LFD tool to search like minded people ?

But I guess I triggered to much people on this thread. "Oh no, everyone has to play the way I want". Childish, if not pathetic.

Hey, hoss, I'm pointing out that your "solution" to his problem isn't a solution at all. It solves literally nothing.

[Imnick]

Question:

Can the Group Finder be used to set up a group that DOESN'T use heirlooms?

Then, when you've got a full group, queue up for random dungeons?

It probably could!
But then you have to ask yourself... who should this system be serving?

The LFD automated queue is what most new players are going to use, because they won't even know they have other options.
Being thrown into groups with people who have massively more powerful gear that is completely unobtainable for them is not a good experience, and it is one that every new player who wants to do dungeons is going to face.
The LFD tool should be there to provide the default experience for everyone, and currently that default experience is bad. Even for people with heirlooms, it's not fun. For the people without it, it is awful.
And I don't see how that can be fixed with heirlooms still in the equation, unless a separate queue system for people with and without heirlooms is added, and frankly I don't think that could work either as the wait times for one would be much different from the other.

[Flurryfang]

This... Is.... AWESOME! Just took a few dungeon runs on my lvl 19 Warlock and i had actually time to do a full rotation! Things are indeed getting better, but they still need to do more. More abilties, more dmg and some more hp will be great. Now they just have to add more fun to the lower lvls of most classes

[Deleted]

yeah man exactly!

so i think next blizzard should give me a button where when i press it give me instant mhytic plus 10* gear. If people dont like this broken system, they should not press this button! gonna be the best day ever

fixed it for you

[Super Kami Dende]

People that always call for heirlooms to be nerfed, heres an idea.

Don't use them.

All your problems solved.

[pmkaboo]

i dont see the point of fixing low level experience. the game is clearly meant to be played at max level and band-aids like increasing hp or damage of low level mobs arent going to fix anything.