Buff heroic or make 10 man mythic

[Gemini Soul]

If you think MoP/Cata Heroic Raids are equal hard then WOD mhytics, dont know you "serious", because they are not, did you even do them?

MoP/Cata 10/25H are on par with current Mythics, can even say that some fights were harder in 10 or 25H than their counterparts things like class balance, buffs, raid buffs/cds etc. On a side note difficulty is subjective, what was/is hard for one person may not be the same for another.

[Flurryfang]

Harder as in better tuned? - Yes, maybe.
Harder as in taking longer to defeat each boss because of gear checks and insane mechanical difficulties? - No.

Top guilds usually spend 2-3 weeks beating new content, and thats how its been for many years now.
Ask the guys who raided Firelands back in Cata if Ragnaros was an easy boss and how he compares to todays bosses.

You are very right indeed. Having bosses better tuned makes for a better raid experience, because you have a better curve. If they could stop having bosses, which are easier then the bosses earlier in a tier, then i would be very happy

Also, the guys in Firelands would proberly quit if they had 2 or more tiers, who are at the same lvl as HC Ragnaros. Having too many bosses like that, is just gonna make mythic raiding take even more time to play.

[shaunika123]

well mythic+ is 5man content with infinite difficulty

I have been playing for 11 years and if there was just a 10 man mythic option I'd quit. It's not a raid... it's a glorified 5 man. It's not fun.

or you know... you could just not raid 10man

also, if yoU're gonna have an argument make one that's not literally 120% subjective

i had way more fun raiding 10man than i did 20man because it was more a much more tightly knitted grp of friends. the "glorified 5man" argument was old before it even begun.

there are arguments for both 25 man and 10man being better, ultimately blizzard decided they CBA to balance both and made a compromise that benefitted 25man fans more, but it couldve been way worse, and im still raiding and i like it, but ill never like it as much as i did 10man heroics

[Zyky]

That is why I proposed an either. I'm realistic and I know Blizzard is probably not going to make a 10 man mythic at this point. But they could buff heroic to make it last longer for a lot of people who could not maintain a 20 man roster and thus still have something to do within 2 months of the raid release. So people aren't just leaving the game within 2 months and guilds are falling apart everywhere like we had in WoD.

Reality is, the content is harder for most people who got handed heroic SoO kills. That's why people quit because they can't find a stable guild that's willing to carry than longer than a few weeks. We hit a patch during Gorefiend progression, but it wasn't because of horrible quality players, it was because we lost a long time tank(who had real life issues come up) and had to replace him. The problem isn't that people quit, the problem isn't 20 man Mythic, and its certainly not that heroic is "too easy". The problems with the game are as follows: during SoO when they announced 20 man Mythic in 2013, all the 10 man guilds scrambled and mass recruited players, good and bad players alike. They carried players to Heroic Garrosh for the next 12 months after the announcement until the release of WoD. Also the creation of group finder, sure its so easy to find a heroic raid group now, but LFG has destroyed the raiding community. With people demanding to find a guild that perfectly wraps around their little snowflake time frame, not even kidding how often I see threads like "only looking to raid Thurs and Sun nights. No other nights." LFG removed the fact that if you wanted to actually raid and do actual progression then you had to get over yourself, pay for your server transfer and join a guild. LFG also made it so that less people are interested in the higher tier of raiding. What's the point of having 4 raid difficulties seriously? Some people are find only clearing heroic, cool good for them, but there use to be a real meaning behind joining a guild and being a part of something, but not since LFG was put in. Frankly there are just too many guilds out there, some good and some bad, and guilds die, its been a thing ever since Vanilla. People need to stop wasting time trying to make something new work and face the fact that they're never going to lead a top 50-200 US guild.

[Hoofey]

i listen rather to method which say mhytic raiding is harder then heroic back then, but thanks for you insightfull input

Then go and ask Method why it took them 18 days to kill Ragnaros alone, when they spent 16 days clearing every boss in HFC on mythic, where 9 of the bosses were killed in 2 days.

The way I see it, your definition of hard is very blurred and vague. Why is it so much harder?
Is it the mechanics that are so hard to deal with? The coordination?
The way I see it, no mechanic is hard to deal with, it just takes time for people to get on the same page. The ability to coordinate and execute strats within a short time is what seperates the pro's from the rest of us.

It took us 150 tries to kill Lei-Shen on heroic, but the next week we oneshot it. Because once you learn how to deal with the mechanics it all becomes autopilot from there on.

[Snuffleupagus]

If you think MoP/Cata Heroic Raids are equal hard then WOD mhytics, dont know you "serious", because they are not, did you even do them?

Pre nerf Cata Heroic raids were on par with WoD Mythic raids.

The first tier that is.

Edit: Many of you need to go back to these raids in the appropriate ilvl gear. I remember me and my offtank being cratered in the first raid tier of Cata because we weren't geared to the eyeballs. It was actually fun to have to use survival abilities at the right time, and showed that Blizzard was capable of making flex content that was hard.

[shaunika123]

If you think MoP/Cata Heroic Raids are equal hard then WOD mhytics, dont know you "serious", because they are not, did you even do them?

i did do them both actually and mythics today arent noticeably harder, heroic rag, or ascendant council, or spine were really difficult fights, and so was blast furnace, archimonde and imperator

maybe mythic is harder than it was back then, but it's not that much harder that i actually noticed it

[Kazuchika]

Oh look it's this thread again..

[Hoofey]

Anyways, back on track. While this doesnt hold true for every case of disbanding guilds, this is what happened to ours.

I raided 10 man back in MoP, with a bunch of people I have raided with since vanilla, and I must say that when I'm looking back at my raiding history, my 10 man experience in MoP is probably at the top. Not because of the content itself, but because raiding with close friends is a bit more special than raiding with 25 strangers, at least in my opinion. Sure, you can have 25 friends as well, but the atmosphere is different in a 10 man. Which is what some people enjoy, while others enjoy a bigger crowd.

We decided to aim for mythic in WoD, which meant that people would have to step up in terms of recruitment, raid leading and other various tasks. The problem here is that some of those people didnt have the motivation to be officers in a big guild, but did it regardless because they wanted the guild to succeed. Which will be one of the reasons for our disband later on.

Come WoD, we were as ready as can be with a full roster of mixed skills and commitment, and we set sail for glory.
Progress was fine, as could be expected with a mixed group, but the problem with said group is that it is very vulnerable to speedbumps in the progression. Hit a bump and people fall off. No worries, pick up more on the way, right?
However, the speedbumps came more frequent and more people started falling off, which put more stress on officers who started to get tired of people leaving.

As you all know, the quality of new recruits can vary, to put it mildly. And when you're desperate enough, your standards for recruits drop which leads to a bad guild atmosphere, and terrible progression. And I think we all know where this ends.
People get sick and tired of shitty raids with shitty recruits and people either leave or stop raiding. Which leads to the already unmotivated officers giving up, and the guild dies.


Which leads to my opinion on why so many guilds disbanded during WoD.

And that is failed guild expansions.

It takes both luck and commitment to go from 10 to 20 man where the new recruits and progression lives up to everyones expectations.
And if they dont, the guild fails.

So to sum all of this up; I dont think we'll see the same thing happening in Legion where there is no drastic change in raid size or difficulty.

[Deleted]

it has never been easy to maintain a full roster throghout an entire expansion, blame the 50%+ who stop playing.
only way to prevent 50% of guilds disbanding, is to make mythic raids 10-20 flex.. but thats impossible to balance in a way that itll be equally difficult with 10,11,12..20 players in the raidgrp. They could go flex but ensure that 20 players will always be the optimal number.

[Flaks]

Do you have an stats or numbers to back up how many people "unsubbed" for these reasons?

im willing to bet only a small percentage at best left for these reasons.

"Only a small percentage" left for many different reasons compounding to the massive loss we saw. This could very well have been an important reason especially considering raiders were the only ones not really lacking content in WoD.

[kary]

Lol.
You basically always have a bunch of F+F guilds that can't do 20man because they are "tight knit" and not skilled enough anyway complaining.

I read the OP's links. Every person complaining that claimed to "have progress" were basically stuck on the hard bosses. Ya grats on killing the easy bosses in a year+. Noone would want to join a guild like that because it's mediocre; that's why you can't recruit. Mediocre players with delusions of grandeur are prolly their own worst enemies.

[Relapses]

It's only mildly ironic that when players are trying to argue for more casual-friendly features in lieu of raiding, they often say "raiders only make up a small percentage of the playerbase so their opinions don't count," yet when it comes to players who prefer smaller raids, every single thread is full of people who equate the massive drop off of subs in WoD to the lack of raiding accessibility for small groups.

[Xenyatta]

also, if yoU're gonna have an argument make one that's not literally 120% subjective

i had way more fun raiding 10man than i did 20man because it was more a much more tightly knitted grp of friends. the "glorified 5man" argument was old before it even begun.

I wasn't making an "argument" or a factual stance. I was stating an opinion... a 120% subjective opinion which coincidentally is exactly what you did in the following sentence. And my opinion of it being a glorified 5 man was my perspective on it alone and I only heard of it being refer to it as such by myself. No idea is was ever a "thing".

[shaunika123]

I wasn't making an "argument" or a factual stance. I was stating an opinion... a 120% subjective opinion which coincidentally is exactly what you did in the following sentence. And my opinion of it being a glorified 5 man was my perspective on it alone and I only heard of it being refer to it as such by myself. No idea is was ever a "thing".

the difference is i only provided my subjective opinion for contrast, but whatever. when you post "ima leave this game hurrdurr" posts on HYPOTHETICAL situations that wouldnt even affect you, then i cant be blamed for assuming you're being dumb.

[brunnor]

I raided 10 man back in MoP, with a bunch of people I have raided with since vanilla, and I must say that when I'm looking back at my raiding history, my 10 man experience in MoP is probably at the top. Not because of the content itself, but because raiding with close friends is a bit more special than raiding with 25 strangers, at least in my opinion. Sure, you can have 25 friends as well, but the atmosphere is different in a 10 man. Which is what some people enjoy, while others enjoy a bigger crowd.

Why do people always say this? I don't get it. Just because there are 15 extra people you are supposed to just not get to know anyone? What the hell is wrong with raiding with 25 friends, 10 of which of those are good friends? The answer is fucking nothing. If you don't want to get to know new people, that's your own damn fault.

[Deleted]

Nothing is going to wreck guilds more than having them go from 25 to 10, then to 20, then back to 10 again. It's constant swapping that will always reduce in lost players more than anything.

[justinhalfout]

I never understood why they couldn't just implement a system whereby Mythic can be switched to flex 10-20 once the serious guilds have finished their races, maybe allow say 8 weeks or so before the switch, by that time who really gives a shit if it makes the raids slightly easier or harder.

Just trying to think outside the box here.

[stomination]

The reason why raiding guilds fell apart is 100% the fact they removed 10 man mythic. It killed my guild, it killed countless others, and yes bringing 10 man mythic back would fix it...

Nah. I was in a guild that fell apart because it didn't achieve the ranks it was capable of before blackhand.

- - - Updated - - -

No thanks. The positives don't outweigh the negatives.

Especially when they have to nerf or buff things because some people want things to be easier.

- - - Updated - - -

I never understood why they couldn't just implement a system whereby Mythic can be switched to flex 10-20 once the serious guilds have finished their races, maybe allow say 8 weeks or so before the switch, by that time who really gives a shit if it makes the raids slightly easier or harder.

Just trying to think outside the box here.

Because then blizz would just be making something for only 10 guilds.

[Thrif]

If you want progression in small groups, congratulations, that's what Mythic+ dungeons are for now.

Seriously, no, raiding shouldn't be able to be done at the highest tier with only 10 people. That's not raiding. That's a dungeon group.