[BETA] Destruction Warlock Discussion

[Gaidax]

RoF issue is not shards but that it takes a long time to do damage, so all the packs that last like 5 seconds get stomped completely before RoF can do damage, another issue is that things need to stay inside it as well. And herein lies the problem - many classes/specs have absolutely stupid burst AoE, so things get roflstomped way before you have opportunity to do real damage to them.

Cataclysm does help though, but it has a cost to it.


As for RoF - 3 Shards is OK cost for RoF, the thing does good damage actually - it just has those issues I mentioned. If you actually able to utilize RoF 100% and get to stack it - it's one of the best baseline AoEs there.

[Deleted]

Two big "ifs", though... Especially in Mythic+ with affixes, where a lot of times there has to be quite some movement of mobs in order to not stand in stuff.

What is quite annoying also is that RoF is actually seen by other players. Tanks that are not as "versed" in dungeons often pull mobs out of the RoF because they think it harms them.

[Lucrece]

RoF issue is not shards but that it takes a long time to do damage, so all the packs that last like 5 seconds get stomped completely before RoF can do damage, another issue is that things need to stay inside it as well. And herein lies the problem - many classes/specs have absolutely stupid burst AoE, so things get roflstomped way before you have opportunity to do real damage to them.

Cataclysm does help though, but it has a cost to it.


As for RoF - 3 Shards is OK cost for RoF, the thing does good damage actually - it just has those issues I mentioned. If you actually able to utilize RoF 100% and get to stack it - it's one of the best baseline AoEs there.

I think by "many classes" we mean most melee, hunters, and fire mages. They should just be tuned lower instead. If some casters have to have ramp up aoe, then either the aoe needs payoff in higher damage ceilings, or the classes with frontloaded aoe need to do less aoe damage.

I think enhancement shaman is a perfect baseline for the kind of aoe melee should be doing.

[Vorpalspork]

The bottom line is that things like mythic+ are basically tuned for heavy upfront AoE, so I don't see it as making any sense to suddenly nerf all the melee dps classes in the game to make warlock less of an outlier. Quite the reverse - the specs that have the bad AoE should either be modified to have at least something better to do with burst AoE. Really, you have three ranged specs with the builder/spender AoE model that makes them worse for mythics - Destro lock, Demo lock, Elem Shaman and Boomkin. Then you have the three ramp up specs - Demo, Aff and SPriest. None of these specs are great for burst AoE and they vary on sustained, but all have the risk of being seen as bad for mythics.

RoF really needs to be put on charges, not on shards. It is sooo much more fun when you can control when you use it. Really, tuning issues aside, it just doesn't seem fun to me when I am always struggling to try and deal with AoE pulls because I just used my shards on the last pull. Also, RoF is really tuned for 5+ mobs, when most trash pulls in 5 man are more like 4. It just never gets a chance to shine except in raiding, but specs should be fun and competitive in all forms of play, not just raiding.

[Deleted]

Two big "ifs", though... Especially in Mythic+ with affixes, where a lot of times there has to be quite some movement of mobs in order to not stand in stuff.

What is quite annoying also is that RoF is actually seen by other players. Tanks that are not as "versed" in dungeons often pull mobs out of the RoF because they think it harms them.

In my opinion, due to the shard cost and all that, the radius should be a lot bigger too. It's kinda silly that it has such a small radius, considering the cost.

[Uzkin]

In the prepatch, I've found one situation where the new RoF / destro AoE is good: the final large-scale demon assault in the Broken Shore scenario. Multiple overlapping RoFs, being spammable due to Cataclysm, on an area with dozens of constantly respawning demons really was quite stellar AoE. Too bad that is pretty much the only situation thus far where RoF has been useful, and even then it requires a specific talent to support it.

RoF is so slow, so restricted, so expensive atm that it's usefulness will be extremely limited.

[Bjarkan]

RoF is quite in a odd position, have the potencial to be a strong AoE, but it needs a lot of preparation for it... To spam it, most likely Cataclyms is needed, but taking Cataclyms means a much slower RoF cast, and have a lot to use Life Tap a lot more...

To me, it would be a better mechanic for RoF something like 0 SS cost for the first RoF, and each subsequent RoF between 10s-20s cost 1 SS more then the last one... This way we could start the AoE pull with a good "burst" (in comparation from now) and keep it throught the fight, and we dont waste resourse if the pack would die shortly... But is just my idea tho XD

[Turturin the Warlock]

Most of you are making too much of AoE though. It's not even close to the only thing that matters in mythic +.

- Most mob pulls are not AoE pulls. Only a couple Dungeons have what I'd consider majority AoE pulls (i.e. 5+ mobs). Off the top of my head, Black Rook Hold is the only one that really stands out. Maybe Darkheart Thicket as well. Teeming as an affix definitely adds a bit, but it isn't up that often.

- Warlocks are amazing on 2 and 3 mob pulls and are decent on 4 mobs. This is most pulls in most dungeons (and certainly most of the harder pulls)

- Affixes matter. AoE is going to fuck you over with: Necrotic and maybe raging. You don't actually want everything dps'd equally in these scenarios.

The Reason Warlocks are not the top mythic class has little to do with AOE. Rather, it's because we have to give up single target to get our niche (amazing 2-3 target dps), and other classes (MM Hunters, Windwalkers, Fire Mages, dks) don't make the same tradeoffs

So buffing rain of fire wouldn't fix it. You'd still be taking Havoc, and your single target damage would still suck compared to named classes. This matters a lot for some instances. For example I recently did a +10 Maw of Souls (sanguine, overflowing, and the one that buffs boss dmg and health). Bosses were not a good time, was a drag on the group for those despite doing very well on trash throughout the instance....however the hunter and fire mage in the group had no such issues

[Rayaleith]

Most of you are making too much of AoE though. It's not even close to the only thing that matters in mythic +.

- Most mob pulls are not AoE pulls. Only a couple Dungeons have what I'd consider majority AoE pulls (i.e. 5+ mobs). Off the top of my head, Black Rook Hold is the only one that really stands out. Maybe Darkheart Thicket as well. Teeming as an affix definitely adds a bit, but it isn't up that often.

- Warlocks are amazing on 2 and 3 mob pulls and are decent on 4 mobs. This is most pulls in most dungeons (and certainly most of the harder pulls)

- Affixes matter. AoE is going to fuck you over with: Necrotic and maybe raging. You don't actually want everything dps'd equally in these scenarios.

The Reason Warlocks are not the top mythic class has little to do with AOE. Rather, it's because we have to give up single target to get our niche (amazing 2-3 target dps), and other classes (MM Hunters, Windwalkers, Fire Mages, dks) don't make the same tradeoffs

So buffing rain of fire wouldn't fix it. You'd still be taking Havoc, and your single target damage would still suck compared to named classes. This matters a lot for some instances. For example I recently did a +10 Maw of Souls (sanguine, overflowing, and the one that buffs boss dmg and health). Bosses were not a good time, was a drag on the group for those despite doing very well on trash throughout the instance....however the hunter and fire mage in the group had no such issues

I completely agree but if a fire mage wants to do AOE, she needs to take this patch-on-the-floor talent that competes with ST. (I don't want to sound like an ass but monks seems to be the favorite of a particular game dev). Our situation is what all should have been into. Aka choices.

[Gaidax]

Fire Mages are overrated TBH, after Flame Patch nerf they are quite a bit more tame.

Demo, on the other hand, may be underrated. I tried it a bit more and I must say, it's not as bad as initially thought.

I'm currently ilvl 863 in Beta with loads of Haste and Demo starts giving better results for me than Destruction in quite a few cases and I also like Demo's "generalist" spec which is quite feature complete IMO. Implosion is pretty amazing for burst, AoE and switching and it is merely a minor loss in pure single target.

It also happens to have disgustingly OP legendaries as well.

[Deleted]

It also happens to have disgustingly OP legendaries as well.

I'm wondering how much this will play into things. Destruction and Demo in particular have some disgustingly nice legendaries, affliction has quite a few that aren't really that good (whether they be slow on corruption or situational things like the agony ramp up).

I really wish they'd picked one direction for the legendaries, either purely throughput legendaries or (more ideally) purely utility. It's gonna feel pretty nasty when you finally get that legendary and it's.... gateway pants.

[Turturin the Warlock]

I'm wondering how much this will play into things. Destruction and Demo in particular have some disgustingly nice legendaries, affliction has quite a few that aren't really that good (whether they be slow on corruption or situational things like the agony ramp up).

I really wish they'd picked one direction for the legendaries, either purely throughput legendaries or (more ideally) purely utility. It's gonna feel pretty nasty when you finally get that legendary and it's.... gateway pants.

Right now sindorei's sprite is a demo loot spec legendary (30% increased damamge when you summon a DG or Infernal) but it works for all specializations.

I have tweeted @ warcraftdevs about this asking that it be made available to all loot specs. I encourage as many people as possible to do this. It's pretty clearly the best legendary available, but you have to go demo to get it and then hope? that sounds awful. Let's start a campaign and hope they change it if they see enough requests.

[Fearsom1992]

I agree because I don't want to put my loot spec as demo -_-

[Deleted]

I agree because I don't want to put my loot spec as demo -_-

It's not that bad, while it's better to get a Legendary for a spec you want to play, the Demo Legendaries are at least more useful than most Affliction ones.

And unless I'm missing something, the only difference loot spec will make are Legendaries after all.

I think I'll be even more disappointed if I play Affli and get the corruption slow Legendary.

[Baconeggcheese]

@Turturin the Warlock it should average out to something like 4% dmg over the course of the fight, which is comparable if not weaker vs other legendberries. The havoc cloak being 8% for instance. Not sure what the shards generated from the belt average out to.

[Deleted]

I think I'll be even more disappointed if I play Affli and get the corruption slow Legendary.

I think if you're playing affliction you'll have your loot spec set to destruction or demo either way.
If you're playing destruction then I think there's a solid argument to keeping the loot spec as destro and hoping for some of the useful destro legendaries.

Affliction is the only spec that seems riddled with trap drops. The gateway pants are something everyone will have to hope to avoid, which is a shame since it'd be a nice legendary if it wasn't competing with throughput ones. I wish they'd made all legendaries interesting utility ones.

[Baconeggcheese]

Or made utility ones a separate category / lockout from the throughput ones. Though if any of the utility legendberries become part of a strat then that becomes silly.

[wooters]

@Turturin the Warlock it should average out to something like 4% dmg over the course of the fight, which is comparable if not weaker vs other legendberries. The havoc cloak being 8% for instance. Not sure what the shards generated from the belt average out to.

how would havoc be 8. if you want 8 for single target with 100% uptime...you loose soul conduit in the process

[Baconeggcheese]

how would havoc be 8. if you want 8 for single target with 100% uptime...you loose soul conduit in the process

I wouldn't be taking soul conduit for ST in the first place. I'd be trading CDF for it, which isn't a huge deal. Also have to factor in the gcd spent every 20 seconds.

So its gonna be slightly less than 8%, but definitely competitive with the bracers. There's also that having a 3 minute CD only lends itself well when it lines up with fight mechanics, otherwise its pretty poop. There's also very few patchwerk fights, and lots of fights where you'd be taking WH anyway.

[Turturin the Warlock]

I wouldn't be taking soul conduit for ST in the first place. I'd be trading CDF for it, which isn't a huge deal. Also have to factor in the gcd spent every 20 seconds.

So its gonna be slightly less than 8%, but definitely competitive with the bracers. There's also that having a 3 minute CD only lends itself well when it lines up with fight mechanics, otherwise its pretty poop. There's also very few patchwerk fights, and lots of fights where you'd be taking WH anyway.

You are over estimating the contribution of the havoc legendary and underestimating the power of the sindorei sprite.

Sprite effects all your damage including pet and dg, infernal, and Lord of flames.

Sprite scales on multi target and havoc cleave.

Sprite has a far superior stacking impact with trinkets and lust.

The havoc and fire spell legendaries are good, sprite is amazing.