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  1. #101
    Field Marshal Yuqii's Avatar
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    On topic, no, Vengeance isn't particularly squishy on live. So far I've tanked 13/13 Heroic and 8/13 Mythic (3 left to kill this week and I decided not to use my DH for Manno/Archi) and a handful of Mythic dungeons without any issue. We one healed Mythic Zakuun while I main tanked it without getting blown up.

    I think it helps understanding how all of the stats work towards mitigation as well as proper cooldown utilisation. If you're really struggling I would recommend stacking Versatility, use Purified Shard of the Third Moon if you have it. If you've got some gold, get yourself a Stage 6 Knight's Badge. Those together will give you a big boost in Versatility as well as an extra mini-cooldown up your sleave.

    Stats for Demon Hunters:
    • Haste - Gives your more GCDs which means more Shears, more Pain and Soul Fragments for more healing through Soul Cleave. Haste also lowers the recharge time on Demon Spikes which is our Active Mitigation mechanic.
    • Crit - The main defensive bonus from Crit is that it gives you a little extra chance to Parry. I'd say this is stat to avoid if you're having survivability issues.
    • Mastery - Increases the Physical damage reduction bonus from Demon Spikes. Mastery also gives you some Attack Power which will increase the base healing of Soul Cleave.
    • Versatility - Take less damage from all sources and increase the healing from Soul Cleave.

    Current guides seem to be recommending going for Haste/Mastery builds as once you get to higher gear levels, they feed off each other quite well. I think this is the wrong way to go if you're under geared and why I recommended stacking Versatility. Tank deaths happen during spike damage or when Active Mitigation falls off. Having really high Mastery is great but as soon as Demon Spikes drops off, you're going to get tanked. Stacking Versatility may not be optimal but it will smooth out those spikes while you're still learning and working out what stats are going to suit your play style.

    Cooldown Usage:
    • Fiery Brand - 40 percent damage reduction for 8 seconds on a 1 minute cooldown. That's actually ridiculously overpowered if we're talking about single target situations. If you find that you're getting tanked on the pull by big bosses, just use this as you engage to give healers so time to get in position and to build up your Pain, etc.
    • Empower Wards - Because our Active Mitigation is Physical only, they've given us this which is 30 percent Magic reduction on a 20 second cooldown. It's a short cooldown so use it liberally.
    • Metamorphosis - This is supposed to be our major "oh shit" button but it's not really that special at the moment without talents and artifact traits. It's still better than nothing, pop it if you're low as it will give you an immediate health boost. The Pain generation will help with getting out Soul Cleaves to top you up.
    • Purified Shard of the Third Moon - The absorb on this isn't nearly as powerful as it used to be (no resolve scaling). Think of it as a free Soul Cleave once per minute that can be used without any Pain.
    • Demon Spikes - Our Active Mitigation mechanic. Because it has 2 charges the goal is to try and keep it up such that you've always got 1 in the bank and 1 recharging. If needed you can pop that banked one but otherwise try to maintain decent uptime casting only when the 2nd charge is about to come up.

    Tanking Tips (for survival, not dps):
    • You can generally have at least something up at any one time. Whether it's Fiery Brand, Demon Spikes, or a Soul Cleave cast.
    • If you don't need the heal, don't cast Soul Cleave. Bank the Pain and build Soul Fragments. 90-100 percent health don't bother (or like 50+ percent health if Demon Spikes is up).
    • You'll get into a flow along the lines of: Demon Spikes up, build Pain and Soul Fragments, Demon Spikes down, Soul Cleave, when you have run out of Demon Spikes pop Fiery Brand, etc, etc. You can keep this up for a large window of having some coverage and on most fights a tank swap mechanic will pop up and you can have a rest.
    • If you're waiting for your turn to tank: Bank your Pain. You should have full Pain as you taunt + put up Demon Spikes so you can handle any spikes and give healers time to swap to you.
    • This is minor but maybe not often thought about. Neither Sigil of Flame or Throw Glaive generate any pain but will take up a GCD (that could have otherwise been used to generate Pain with Shear). If you're really trying to push survivability, you may want to think about not wasting a GCD on either.

    That's about all I can think of at the moment. Hopefully something here might help a struggling DH.
    Last edited by Yuqii; 2016-08-12 at 02:48 AM.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuqii View Post
    That's about all I can think of at the moment. Hopefully something here might help a struggling DH.
    These are all great tips. Haste is HUGE. With food I have 2900+ haste, combine that with Warsong weapon enchant my Demon Spike CD is as low as 10.8 seconds - it's up a lot. I am using Warlords Unseeing Eye and Stone of Elements - I feel really comfortable at 718 ilvl and know I could easily jump into Mythic HFC no problem

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Melsiren View Post
    Demonspikes used to reduce all damage taken instead of just physical... I could go on.
    I don't have beta, but this sounds like...the best thing ever. I wish it was still like that. On another note having a lot of fun with DH tanking. Less fun with regrinding reps so I can use toys/tabards, but it is what it is.

  4. #104
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Drewharymore View Post
    These are all great tips. Haste is HUGE. With food I have 2900+ haste, combine that with Warsong weapon enchant my Demon Spike CD is as low as 10.8 seconds - it's up a lot. I am using Warlords Unseeing Eye and Stone of Elements - I feel really comfortable at 718 ilvl and know I could easily jump into Mythic HFC no problem
    Just did 11/13 HFC mythic tonight with 714 and WUE and the heirloom. Works fine even dps is decent with a good weapon. It's mostly about getting used to pain generation and avoiding overusing glaive. Just keep shearing, imagine it's a MoP monk. Also Infernal/Abyssal Strike is off-GCD, just use it on CD whatever you are doing.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Melsiren View Post
    Demonspikes used to reduce all damage taken instead of just physical...
    Demon Spikes only reduced all damage taken, rather than just physical, for one build. One. Build.

    Please don't talk about it like it was some kind of massive thing that we had for a while and then was removed - it was an experiment that lasted less than a week, midway through the testing cycle.

  6. #106
    I walked into Mythic HFC at 710ilvl and tanked the entire instance. While it's currently weaker than I'd like it to be compared to my Blood DK who I also ran through 13/13M in prepatch at 715, it wasn't particularly hard. That being said, level 100 isn't a particularly good metric for judging performance considering the heavily nerfed nature of current content. There will be more balancing passes before and during the beginning of Legion raiding content.
    Last edited by Delimit; 2016-08-12 at 11:19 AM.

  7. #107
    Deleted
    So, Fallout or Feast of Souls? I can't really decide.

  8. #108
    Not really worried about right now.

    The problems are the survivability and dps at 110 but blizzard is looking into it.

  9. #109
    I got a dk tank and a dh tank, i think i can heal way more with dh than dk. The trade-off is less direct survivability, but i've done group of mobs in mythic dungeons without a healer and ending up at 40k hps+. Squishy, yes but it's not a problem if you can play the spec.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    I'm sure, many good players had access to beta, to get used to the class. And we're going off logs currently.
    Seriously, no one gives a shit about logs or ranks from a class with 2 talents lol. Beta or not.
    Science the shit out of it!

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuqii View Post
    On topic, no, Vengeance isn't particularly squishy on live. So far I've tanked 13/13 Heroic and 8/13 Mythic (3 left to kill this week and I decided not to use my DH for Manno/Archi) and a handful of Mythic dungeons without any issue. We one healed Mythic Zakuun while I main tanked it without getting blown up.

    I think it helps understanding how all of the stats work towards mitigation as well as proper cooldown utilisation. If you're really struggling I would recommend stacking Versatility, use Purified Shard of the Third Moon if you have it. If you've got some gold, get yourself a Stage 6 Knight's Badge. Those together will give you a big boost in Versatility as well as an extra mini-cooldown up your sleave.

    Stats for Demon Hunters:
    • Haste - Gives your more GCDs which means more Shears, more Pain and Soul Fragments for more healing through Soul Cleave. Haste also lowers the recharge time on Demon Spikes which is our Active Mitigation mechanic.
    • Crit - The main defensive bonus from Crit is that it gives you a little extra chance to Parry. I'd say this is stat to avoid if you're having survivability issues.
    • Mastery - Increases the Physical damage reduction bonus from Demon Spikes. Mastery also gives you some Attack Power which will increase the base healing of Soul Cleave.
    • Versatility - Take less damage from all sources and increase the healing from Soul Cleave.

    Current guides seem to be recommending going for Haste/Mastery builds as once you get to higher gear levels, they feed off each other quite well. I think this is the wrong way to go if you're under geared and why I recommended stacking Versatility. Tank deaths happen during spike damage or when Active Mitigation falls off. Having really high Mastery is great but as soon as Demon Spikes drops off, you're going to get tanked. Stacking Versatility may not be optimal but it will smooth out those spikes while you're still learning and working out what stats are going to suit your play style.

    Cooldown Usage:
    • Fiery Brand - 40 percent damage reduction for 8 seconds on a 1 minute cooldown. That's actually ridiculously overpowered if we're talking about single target situations. If you find that you're getting tanked on the pull by big bosses, just use this as you engage to give healers so time to get in position and to build up your Pain, etc.
    • Empower Wards - Because our Active Mitigation is Physical only, they've given us this which is 30 percent Magic reduction on a 20 second cooldown. It's a short cooldown so use it liberally.
    • Metamorphosis - This is supposed to be our major "oh shit" button but it's not really that special at the moment without talents and artifact traits. It's still better than nothing, pop it if you're low as it will give you an immediate health boost. The Pain generation will help with getting out Soul Cleaves to top you up.
    • Purified Shard of the Third Moon - The absorb on this isn't nearly as powerful as it used to be (no resolve scaling). Think of it as a free Soul Cleave once per minute that can be used without any Pain.
    • Demon Spikes - Our Active Mitigation mechanic. Because it has 2 charges the goal is to try and keep it up such that you've always got 1 in the bank and 1 recharging. If needed you can pop that banked one but otherwise try to maintain decent uptime casting only when the 2nd charge is about to come up.

    Tanking Tips (for survival, not dps):
    • You can generally have at least something up at any one time. Whether it's Fiery Brand, Demon Spikes, or a Soul Cleave cast.
    • If you don't need the heal, don't cast Soul Cleave. Bank the Pain and build Soul Fragments. 90-100 percent health don't bother (or like 50+ percent health if Demon Spikes is up).
    • You'll get into a flow along the lines of: Demon Spikes up, build Pain and Soul Fragments, Demon Spikes down, Soul Cleave, when you have run out of Demon Spikes pop Fiery Brand, etc, etc. You can keep this up for a large window of having some coverage and on most fights a tank swap mechanic will pop up and you can have a rest.
    • If you're waiting for your turn to tank: Bank your Pain. You should have full Pain as you taunt + put up Demon Spikes so you can handle any spikes and give healers time to swap to you.
    • This is minor but maybe not often thought about. Neither Sigil of Flame or Throw Glaive generate any pain but will take up a GCD (that could have otherwise been used to generate Pain with Shear). If you're really trying to push survivability, you may want to think about not wasting a GCD on either.

    That's about all I can think of at the moment. Hopefully something here might help a struggling DH.
    Your cooldown usage and Tanking Tips are how I've been playing while not feeling squishy. I recommend everyone read over this if you're still struggling after reading other guides.

  12. #112
    Pandaren Monk Melsiren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victork8 View Post
    I got a dk tank and a dh tank, i think i can heal way more with dh than dk. The trade-off is less direct survivability, but i've done group of mobs in mythic dungeons without a healer and ending up at 40k hps+. Squishy, yes but it's not a problem if you can play the spec.
    I don't know about prepatch, but on Legion DK tanks are better than DH tank in every way but utility.

    Quote Originally Posted by FenixAU View Post
    Demon Spikes only reduced all damage taken, rather than just physical, for one build. One. Build.

    Please don't talk about it like it was some kind of massive thing that we had for a while and then was removed - it was an experiment that lasted less than a week, midway through the testing cycle.
    Let's just disregard the other things I mentioned that were big deals.


    Sorry let me update my post to not trigger anyone in the future.
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  13. #113
    Stood in the Fire vulena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameasun View Post
    So, Fallout or Feast of Souls? I can't really decide.
    AoE vs. Single Target

    That's the decision.
    disco inferno

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuqii View Post
    On topic, no, Vengeance isn't particularly squishy on live. So far I've tanked 13/13 Heroic and 8/13 Mythic (3 left to kill this week and I decided not to use my DH for Manno/Archi) and a handful of Mythic dungeons without any issue. We one healed Mythic Zakuun while I main tanked it without getting blown up.

    I think it helps understanding how all of the stats work towards mitigation as well as proper cooldown utilisation. If you're really struggling I would recommend stacking Versatility, use Purified Shard of the Third Moon if you have it. If you've got some gold, get yourself a Stage 6 Knight's Badge. Those together will give you a big boost in Versatility as well as an extra mini-cooldown up your sleave.

    Stats for Demon Hunters:
    • Haste - Gives your more GCDs which means more Shears, more Pain and Soul Fragments for more healing through Soul Cleave. Haste also lowers the recharge time on Demon Spikes which is our Active Mitigation mechanic.
    • Crit - The main defensive bonus from Crit is that it gives you a little extra chance to Parry. I'd say this is stat to avoid if you're having survivability issues.
    • Mastery - Increases the Physical damage reduction bonus from Demon Spikes. Mastery also gives you some Attack Power which will increase the base healing of Soul Cleave.
    • Versatility - Take less damage from all sources and increase the healing from Soul Cleave.

    Current guides seem to be recommending going for Haste/Mastery builds as once you get to higher gear levels, they feed off each other quite well. I think this is the wrong way to go if you're under geared and why I recommended stacking Versatility. Tank deaths happen during spike damage or when Active Mitigation falls off. Having really high Mastery is great but as soon as Demon Spikes drops off, you're going to get tanked. Stacking Versatility may not be optimal but it will smooth out those spikes while you're still learning and working out what stats are going to suit your play style.

    Cooldown Usage:
    • Fiery Brand - 40 percent damage reduction for 8 seconds on a 1 minute cooldown. That's actually ridiculously overpowered if we're talking about single target situations. If you find that you're getting tanked on the pull by big bosses, just use this as you engage to give healers so time to get in position and to build up your Pain, etc.
    • Empower Wards - Because our Active Mitigation is Physical only, they've given us this which is 30 percent Magic reduction on a 20 second cooldown. It's a short cooldown so use it liberally.
    • Metamorphosis - This is supposed to be our major "oh shit" button but it's not really that special at the moment without talents and artifact traits. It's still better than nothing, pop it if you're low as it will give you an immediate health boost. The Pain generation will help with getting out Soul Cleaves to top you up.
    • Purified Shard of the Third Moon - The absorb on this isn't nearly as powerful as it used to be (no resolve scaling). Think of it as a free Soul Cleave once per minute that can be used without any Pain.
    • Demon Spikes - Our Active Mitigation mechanic. Because it has 2 charges the goal is to try and keep it up such that you've always got 1 in the bank and 1 recharging. If needed you can pop that banked one but otherwise try to maintain decent uptime casting only when the 2nd charge is about to come up.

    Tanking Tips (for survival, not dps):
    • You can generally have at least something up at any one time. Whether it's Fiery Brand, Demon Spikes, or a Soul Cleave cast.
    • If you don't need the heal, don't cast Soul Cleave. Bank the Pain and build Soul Fragments. 90-100 percent health don't bother (or like 50+ percent health if Demon Spikes is up).
    • You'll get into a flow along the lines of: Demon Spikes up, build Pain and Soul Fragments, Demon Spikes down, Soul Cleave, when you have run out of Demon Spikes pop Fiery Brand, etc, etc. You can keep this up for a large window of having some coverage and on most fights a tank swap mechanic will pop up and you can have a rest.
    • If you're waiting for your turn to tank: Bank your Pain. You should have full Pain as you taunt + put up Demon Spikes so you can handle any spikes and give healers time to swap to you.
    • This is minor but maybe not often thought about. Neither Sigil of Flame or Throw Glaive generate any pain but will take up a GCD (that could have otherwise been used to generate Pain with Shear). If you're really trying to push survivability, you may want to think about not wasting a GCD on either.

    That's about all I can think of at the moment. Hopefully something here might help a struggling DH.


    Good write up. One thing to add though. Your soul cleave heals and soul fragment heals can CRIT which is another way crit gives us survivability.

  15. #115
    I did a couple mythics on my DH tank at 682 right out of the door from the starting zone, it was challenging but I wouldn't say I got crushed, didn't die at all but I had to be smart about how I played. It seems to be in the correct spot given the item level, lack of talents or artifact (which they are balanced around) and the fact that we are no longer optimised to be running low level content (yes level 100 mythics is low level content after patch 7.0, regardless of the fact we cant level to 110 yet).

    My 110 DH on beta is an excellent tank and performs very well in all situations, the squishyness of DH's at level 100 is in no way indicative of their value as a tank at end game.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I did a couple mythics on my DH tank at 682 right out of the door from the starting zone, it was challenging but I wouldn't say I got crushed, didn't die at all but I had to be smart about how I played. It seems to be in the correct spot given the item level, lack of talents or artifact (which they are balanced around) and the fact that we are no longer optimised to be running low level content (yes level 100 mythics is low level content after patch 7.0, regardless of the fact we cant level to 110 yet).

    My 110 DH on beta is an excellent tank and performs very well in all situations, the squishyness of DH's at level 100 is in no way indicative of their value as a tank at end game.
    Thank you for inspiring hope. I'm maining a DH tank in Legion and I really hope they will be relevant in high end raiding.

  17. #117
    I'm not sure how much this would impact tank comparisons, but we should not forget that currently every other tank class has two set boni + a potential class trinket.

  18. #118
    Went into mythic dungeons with ~700 groups as a 700 venge DH, despite trash taking forever I felt incredibly tanky for my ilvl, even though I had tracking charm/Lekos Leash for trinkets.

    With how sturdy venge is right now, it becoming even better at 110 sounds a bit scary.

  19. #119
    Had no problems carrying a crappy normal group on my veng last night. When not ignoring tank/fight mechanics, the tanking was very smooth and easy, very rarely did i drop under 50% hp.

    Also, i got tyrants decree last night! that buffer will be nice to have, i'm at 600k hp now.

  20. #120
    Over 9000! Saverem's Avatar
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    I found that the best AND worst part of vengeance is their healing.

    In PvP, it's really good because it's a static heal that doesn't depend on incoming damage like the DK heal.

    On the flip side, for raiding or anything that has lots of incoming damage at a high rate, it suck donkey tits because it's a static heal.


    I've spent an hour dueling Veng DH on my BDK and I could not even put a dent on them. The duels would last like 10 minutes but it would always end with me DK on his knees and the Veng DH with pretty much 100% HP. Again, shows how good static self heals are (as well as Demon Spikes causing my DS to be parried and wasted, but that's a different story for a different time).

    However, put that same DH in a mythic raid, and his healing will pail in comparison to my DKs who will have crazy high DS heals due to how it works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuqii View Post
    On topic, no, Vengeance isn't particularly squishy on live. So far I've tanked 13/13 Heroic and 8/13 Mythic (3 left to kill this week and I decided not to use my DH for Manno/Archi) and a handful of Mythic dungeons without any issue. We one healed Mythic Zakuun while I main tanked it without getting blown up.
    I'm assuming your guild has those bosses already on farm? No offense, but it doesn't really say much about a tank when you have 19 other people overgeared and with muscle memory of how the fight works. You can probably have a Rogue tank those in that scenario.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that DH tank sucks, I'm just saying that just because you tanked Mythic with one when the encounters are already on farm doesn't really prove they're good tanks.
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