PSA: You want to use Fel Rush even without Momentum.

[Krille]

There may be an issue with reading comprehension here. Do you understand that I'm talking about making it an option?

Dude, talents have never been an option if you want to be at your best. Since the start of WoW you've been required to use certain talents to deal the most damage. This only applies to the top players though so if you're worried about that dps loss, don't be and play your way. If you want to min/max, realize you have extremely limited "options" regardless of class.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Its the same with Vengeance guys. You shouldn't play this class if you don't want to use their crazy movement abilities. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually BUFF fel rush to be in line with how strong Chi Torpedo was in WoD CMs. Some sort of way to reset it etc.

[Schizoide]

OK. There is an issue with reading comprehension. Let me rephrase it.

1) Nerf Fel Rush so it does less damage than Demon's Bite
2) Buff Momentum so it gives all that damage back to Fel Rush

So you see, if you want to use Fel Rush on cooldown, you take Momentum. You will have the exact same gameplay you have today.

If you don't want to use Fel Rush on cooldown, you don't take Momentum.

Then we're both happy!

[Krille]

You can't just "use it accordingly" when you have it talented that way. You will lose a significant amount of your damage. The main thing people look at is how much damage you are putting out. If your damage isn't high, why are you there?

I agree that decisions matter and how to Fel Rush matters. I don't agree that Fel Rush should be this major ability that dictates how well you are doing on the damage meters. That's stupid to put all of your eggs in one basket.

That's nice, but one of those abilities totally dictates your damage. That's not a healthy balance for the class at all. Let it be an option if you want it to be that major ability, but don't make it mandatory right off of the bat.

Yes you can. If the trade-off is DYING then not using fel rush is a very good decision to make. You can deal competitive damage without using fel rush like a moron, you talk about extremes, this argument you have is the most extreme i've seen so far. You can slide sideways, you can slide forward, you can retreat and fel rush back instantly, it's not difficult to experiment with the mobility to make it work in most situations.

[Xaenne]

Its the same with Vengeance guys. You shouldn't play this class if you don't want to use their crazy movement abilities. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually BUFF fel rush to be in line with how strong Chi Torpedo was in WoD CMs. Some sort of way to reset it etc.

It's not about not wanting to use Fel Rush at all. Where the fuck is that misconception coming from? It's about making it so I could either: 1) Talent into Fel Rush into it's current state, or; 2) Opt to have Fel Rush still be a DPS cd but make, say, Chaos Nova the impactful ability in my rotation.

If you think Fel Rush needs a buff, you may be misinformed on how much it is actually doing.

Yes you can. If the trade-off is DYING then not using fel rush is a very good decision to make. You can deal competitive damage without using fel rush like a moron, you talk about extremes, this argument you have is the most extreme i've seen so far. You can slide sideways, you can slide forward, you can retreat and fel rush back instantly, it's not difficult to experiment with the mobility to make it work in most situations.

Okay, YOU may be able to think that way. The average player may not. I've been trying to get this point across that the average player will not play this class properly and will not be invited to groups because of this core mechanic and how much it is relied upon. Blizzard said they designed this class to be easy for anyone to get into. The current state of this class dictates otherwise. If the average player cannot play this class using the current tools given to them, they will be given new tools. No matter what I say or you say or anyone else says, if people are having a negative experience relying too much on Fel Rush, something will be changed about it.

[Deleted]

Why is this thread 9 pages can anyone summarise this for me?

[Krille]

OK. There is an issue with reading comprehension. Let me rephrase it.

1) Nerf Fel Rush so it does less damage than Demon's Bite
2) Buff Momentum so it gives all that damage back to Fel Rush

So you see, if you want to use Fel Rush on cooldown, you take Momentum. You will have the exact same gameplay you have today.

If you don't want to use Fel Rush on cooldown, you don't take Momentum.

Then we're both happy!

It never works that way. ONE way will always be doing more damage and still be mandatory. You can already opt out of using fel rush/fel mastery and play the way you want. You do that and there's a huge risk that nobody will play momentum because some other talent is better. Leave it be and you can still use another talent, nobody is forcing you to pick Momentum unless you want to min/max.

This is the balance in WoW and have always been. There's always been 1 talent that is the strongest.

[Schizoide]

It never works that way. ONE way will always be doing more damage and still be mandatory. You can already opt out of using fel rush/fel mastery and play the way you want.

Of course, and the Momentum playstyle should reward the player with more damage than taking Nemesis and not Fel Rushing on cooldown. But right now it's ~20% more damage, making it completely mandatory. If that was 5% rather than 20%, it would be a choice rather than a mandate.

[Deleted]

So you just described my problem with it. Casual players aren't going to do that. They are going to die. A lot. Casual players aren't going to be in the category of 'master' for their class. They are going to tinker with it, realize no group wants to take them, then switch off. That is against the design of what Blizzard wants to do with Demon Hunters as a whole. They made it simple and easy to get into for a reason. When you make something needlessly complex by putting the stigma of "You can die at any time", something is going to eventually change.

I know it's pessimistic but it's also realistic. We're not the entire playerbase. We're a handful of a sample size, and we're actively trying to learn about the proper way to play the class. You can't imagine everyone to be that way.



Because it's a major difference in damage. People like high numbers. What's so hard to understand?

Addressing your first block of text, I don't really fancy repeating myself for nth time. You have quoted what I will respond but I will add one thing. Since when has it been a bad thing for a video game to have a higher difficultly setting with better rewards? The reward here is obviously doing more damage (since that is all people seem to care about now).

Regarding your second block of text, the difference is actually small. Not "major". The other setup you could take is only behind by a few percentage. Unless you are cutting edge mythic raider, that small percentage will not matter. Considering your response to my "why is this hard to understand" question, I see you do not. I tried explaining it and I do not think I can make it any simpler.

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Because my guild is in the top 100, why is that hard to understand? Momentum is fun to play around in LFR and HM, but for progression, it is very tedious.

I could pick apart that small paragraph of "constructive" debate but I don't want to be rude, not in my nature..... But LOL sure of course you are in the top 100 raiding guilds. What you are saying, does not match that mindset you need. You never addressed my point. There are other talents to pick. If you were a world 100 (LOL) you would know that you will not be using it all the time any way. Every class, every spec has a gameplay that tears the community apart (example seraphim for prot Paladins).

[Xaenne]

Fel Mastery is the strongest by a large margin. One of the largest margins in talent choice. The only example that comes to mind that is recent was all Mages having to take Rune of Power because it was so good, and even then Incanter's Flow was still comparable. Fel Mastery literally outclasses the other two choices with no contest. That isn't balance.

[Krille]

Okay, YOU may be able to think that way. The average player may not. I've been trying to get this point across that the average player will not play this class properly and will not be invited to groups because of this core mechanic and how much it is relied upon. Blizzard said they designed this class to be easy for anyone to get into. The current state of this class dictates otherwise. If the average player cannot play this class using the current tools given to them, they will be given new tools. No matter what I say or you say or anyone else says, if people are having a negative experience relying too much on Fel Rush, something will be changed about it.

You seriously undermine the "average player" if you don't think they can see that dying vs dealing a bit more damage that split second is a loss of total dps. And you're way too hung up on Blizzards "easy to play"-statement.

[Schizoide]

Regarding your second block of text, the difference is actually small. Not "major". The other setup you could take is only behind by a few percentage. Unless you are cutting edge mythic raider, that small percentage will not matter.

That is incorrect. Momentum alone is only worth a couple percent, but you still need to Fel Rush on cooldown or you're down another 15% total damage.

[Krille]

Of course, and the Momentum playstyle should reward the player with more damage than taking Nemesis and not Fel Rushing on cooldown. But right now it's ~20% more damage, making it completely mandatory. If that was 5% rather than 20%, it would be a choice rather than a mandate.

My argument is still, if you want to deal the most damage, you adapt and learn to play the class. If not? There are tons of other classes that don't require you to be able to move without dying. You make it sound like it's a huge fucking task.

[Schizoide]

My argument is still, if you want to deal the most damage, you adapt and learn to play the class. If not? There are tons of other classes that don't require you to be able to move without dying. You make it sound like it's a huge fucking task.

That applies to every spec, yes. I still haven't seen you make an argument why providing the player with the ability to opt-out (or opt-in) to this repositioning is a bad thing. You just seem petty about it.

[Xaenne]

I started to underestimate the prowess of the average player when I saw people wipe to LFR Highmaul. I realized people are potatoes unless they prove they aren't. I can bet that Fel Rush, coupled with Fel Mastery and Momentum, is going to cause a lot of people to get frustrated that they are dying to shit too often. They will either switch to a different class or yell at Blizzard to change something. Consider my thoughts tame in comparison to those who just shout nonsense to get their voice heard.

That is incorrect. Momentum alone is only worth a couple percent, but you still need to Fel Rush on cooldown or you're down another 15% total damage.

Yeah, Momentum's damage buff is technically a small difference. However, Fel Mastery's buff is not. Fel Mastery makes Fel Rush one of your highest damaging abilities significantly, and if you aren't pressing it you are losing out big time.

[Krille]

That applies to every spec, yes. I still haven't seen you make an argument why providing the player with the ability to opt-out (or opt-in) to this repositioning is a bad thing. You just seem petty about it.

Because it's impossible to balance things like this without making another talent the number one choice, effectively killing the other choice. You see, if there's something that's close to fel rush in damage that can have you stand completely still, that talent will be better, MOVING has very rarely helped you deal damage because it means seconds that you're away from the boss not dealing damage. If there's an option that parse close to using fel rush, everyone will be just standing still and it will become the mandatory talent instead. You're seriously deluded if you ever think there's been options when it comes to talents. They have in a majority of times only been about AOE/ST fights. That's the reality of the min/max required to be at top. Not planning to be a top raider? Play whatever you want and you will still finish the content.

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I started to underestimate the prowess of the average player when I saw people wipe to LFR Highmaul. I realized people are potatoes unless they prove they aren't. I can bet that Fel Rush, coupled with Fel Mastery and Momentum, is going to cause a lot of people to get frustrated that they are dying to shit too often. They will either switch to a different class or yell at Blizzard to change something. Consider my thoughts tame in comparison to those who just shout nonsense to get their voice heard.

Players in LFR aren't stupid, they simply don't care and/or are afk on the fights. And i've said this 10 times now, if they're so bad that they can't practice and get better at using fel rush momentum rotation then they won't ever become a top raider and can just take whatever talent they want because if you only want to clear heroic content you can literally play whatever and still succeed.

[Deleted]

Why is this thread 9 pages can anyone summarise this for me?

Yes! You have to use Fel Rush even without Momentum. Aditionally there are some q.q in the last few pages of people who hate momentum and realise now the DH will go into legion with this talent.

[Deleted]

That is incorrect. Momentum alone is only worth a couple percent, but you still need to Fel Rush on cooldown or you're down another 15% total damage.

You are not looking at the large picture. Lets do some napkin theorycrafting. Let's take one of my logs, here is a link of one I did casually the other night with my guild.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

We can see I did a total of 7.8 mil. Fel Rush is my third hardest hitting ability at 980.8k. We will round that up 981k for easier numbers. 7,800,000 minus 981,000 is 6,819,000. Remember that number. We take away 15% off Fel Rush, like you say we would lose 15% of the damage if not used on CD. 981k with 15% off is 833,850. We will round this to 834k. Let's add that back to my total damage. So 6,819,00 plus 833,850. Our new total damage is 7,652,850 but rounded up to 7,653,000. The fight lasted 3 minutes 27 seconds. That is 207 seconds. So 7,653,000 divided by 207 seconds is (rounded up) 36,971 damage per second.

Let's take away 36,971 from my logs DPS of 37,571 (again rounded up). A difference of 600 exactly. 600 is (roughly) 2% damage lost. How is that substantial? That is in the margin of "play what you prefer".

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I'm curious, do people who don't like FRing also want an option to remove the DoTs on their Aff Locks and Shadow Priests, or Colossus Smash on their Arms Warriors, or Combo Points on their Rogues?
It's that level of fundamental to the design I think. This is how the spec plays, if you don't enjoy that, then that's fine, but the solution isn't asking Blizz to change it, it's to not play the class based around that. I'm not a fan of a DoT based playstyle, so I don't play Affli.

[Deleted]

I'm curious, do people who don't like FRing also want an option to remove the DoTs on their Aff Locks and Shadow Priests, or Colossus Smash on their Arms Warriors, or Combo Points on their Rogues?
It's that level of fundamental to the design I think. This is how the spec plays, if you don't enjoy that, then that's fine, but the solution isn't asking Blizz to change it, it's to not play the class based around that. I'm not a fan of a DoT based playstyle, so I don't play Affli.

Same for myself. I hate arms playstyle so I avoid warriors and retribution! But clearly saying this is too complicated to understand.