[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Cyous]

In case, I was wrong -- quote posts werent actually the content they seemed to be. And for that, I apologize, because it sucks having to deal with that.

I get a ton of shit for telling people what they're doing wrong, why they're wrong, and how they can fix it. I am more-so out of patience with bad ideas, so I'd rather just stamp them out immediately. When I make a complaint, it's typically the general feedback I'm reading from various sources. I have my own opinions, and many people seem to think that means "Shut up noob, I'm talking and you're wrong."

But Moonfire and Sunfire aren't redundant. Innervate is "decent" in a coordinated group. Our Utility overall is meh for raiding. Defensive cooldowns are weak for raiding, but we're practically unkillable in PVP if you play properly, and with a coordinated group (3v3). Empowerments are fine as is, though my ideals are different.

[Lucrece]

Stampeding Roar was changed to Innervate, we didnt lose utility it was just changed.

A utility of even more marginal use than stampeding roar. Utility that you yourself don't even benefit from yet takes up an artifact power slot, and if you care to browse most of the beta forums people universally don't find useful in mythic+ dungeons because mana problems are not what's failing people in said dungeons. Healers aren't even balanced to need Innervate to perform; the impact of Innervate is rather tiny compared to the utility we lost.

Tranquility was gone a while ago at the time when other specs lost utility aswell. Stampeding Roar is gone but you got Innervate in return and we still have Rebirth. Raid wide buffs are gone all together so counting MotW as "loss of utility" is exactly what being dramatic is.

Replace "other" for some. Because shamans didn't lose heroism as a vital group buff, they didn't lose their aoe 5 second stun, and their Thunderstorm remained a baseline ability while our Typhoon was made a talent to compete with Bash (an inferior version of Capacitor Totem that's single target with a longer cd), and they gained our stampeding roar as a totem to boot. Hunters certainly didn't lose their utility niche, adn both mages and rogues retained their utility as soakers. Shadow priests kept mass dispel and vampiric embrace while our nature's vigil got tossed in the trash bin.

Rotations and toolkits arent equal but those dont mean theres more depth to one than the other. You cant judge that solely based on number of abilities to press or patchwerk rotation.

And balance druid has no more depth than a demonology warlock in legion or a surrender to madness shadow priest (where the actual outcome of performance failure is death of the player).

Most certainly balance druid does not have the complexity of a legion feral druid, for the mere fact that multidotting as an energy based melee spec with tight timers has far more intricacies to consider (blood talons, savage roar, and now jagged wounds which reduces their window to renew on an energy and cp starved system).

Any class has its min-max options but a BM hunter for example will never have the depth of a shadow priest.

No, its not. Saying that a spells dont have interaction is stating a fact (a false one in this case), saying that the interaction our spells have isnt to your liking is an opinion.

Fair point, because I failed to mention single target as my basis for interaction.

I suppose saying "multidot" means different things to each person. When I say multidot it means that we heavily depend our damage on those said dots, specifically in multitarget situations.

Which is now the case of elemental shamans and destro warlocks (or any warlocks as well), since their resource generation to do any damage at all is far more tied to those multidot procs than we are at the moment with the removal of shooting stars from WoD.

Insect Swarm became Sunfire for the sake of the name, the spell itself wasnt created just because eclipse. I know my WoW history well enough but a good try trying to discredit me with puny insult.

Now you're splitting hairs. Sunfire was not Insect Swarm any more than wrath was starfire back in vanilla. Both were dots and both were nukes, but they have been separate spells in visuals and in name.

And by doing that you'd leave Solar Wrath nearly useless spell which would result in people like you crying over Solar Wrath being nearly useless and "lacking".
Also the way Starsurge and Empowerments currently work is "unique", you want interaction but then you dont want it - just make up your mind.

How would solar wrath be useless? Solar Wrath would still come out ahead of LS without LS empowerments. Rethink your position instead of losing time on petty hypotheticals about what I would and not cry about.

I dont keep up with the forums at the same pace I used to, one of the big reasons being posters like you, so yeah I've probably missed alot of stuff people have been talking about.

Can't blame you, with comments like these many people also need to take a break often.

Oh, I agree that it every spec should be competitive but I'm just being realistic here - it will NEVER happen if we want to have any differences between classes/specs.
and yeah, as I'm not HC raiding anymore Mythic+ dungeons will impact my gameplay quite a lot but feel free to try downtalk my points a bit more.

"You" is used in a general sense, not individually ("you cannot run before you walk"). I'm not clairvoyant so I don't know what content you participate in, don't make this all about some vendetta I have against you.

It applies to every caster yes and as a balance druid moving for a few seconds hardly impacts your dps - if you're just prepared for it. Any movement longer than 3-5 seconds and you're in a situation that happens only on one encounter out of a hundred or you've just fucked up your position all together.

Hardly, in a raid sure. The obvious point is that not all game formats involve the luxury of rare 3-5 sec movement. Doesn't remove the fact that a mage or hunter is doing more damage than you can on the move.

I've provided you arguments that support the "fine" part, you've only cried your personal opinions.

Insults and dismissal are not arguments. All you've provided is judgement.

If Moonfire and Sunfire are visual clones then I suppose all dots are just clones of each other as clearly the damage or functioning of the dots doesnt matter.

Compare the dot interaction mechanisms of flame shock, affliction dots with Compound Interest trait, SWP and sphere of insanity and void eruption. Additional mechanisms, and admittedly in my opinion (since apparently I need to spell it out) more interesting than what we have if we do not talent for shooting stars.

Could be as simple as baking a modified version of the shooting stars talent we have in and replacing that tier with something else.

Moonfire and Sunfire dont play a vital part with our ST rotation, they are just "shoot and forget" specially if you take NB. However if you consider AoE or multidot situations your mind should change.

Granted, I failed to specify single target and neglect aoe so that's on me.

I just quoted the last post you whined it, it had nothing about defensive CD's.
As said earlier Innervate can be of great importance for any group/raid content.
As for defensive cd's: Ours arent the best out there, theres no denying that, but they still are good enough. I've yet to be benched from a raid/rbg/dungeon because of "lacking survivability", closest to that would be Al'akir 25hc pre-nerf where half of the raid had to afk whole p1.

I'd dispute Innervate's importance, it's rather mediocre.

In case, I was wrong -- quote posts werent actually the content they seemed to be. And for that, I apologize, because it sucks having to deal with that.

I get a ton of shit for telling people what they're doing wrong, why they're wrong, and how they can fix it. I am more-so out of patience with bad ideas, so I'd rather just stamp them out immediately. When I make a complaint, it's typically the general feedback I'm reading from various sources. I have my own opinions, and many people seem to think that means "Shut up noob, I'm talking and you're wrong."

But Moonfire and Sunfire aren't redundant. Innervate is "decent" in a coordinated group. Our Utility overall is meh for raiding. Defensive cooldowns are weak for raiding, but we're practically unkillable in PVP if you play properly, and with a coordinated group (3v3). Empowerments are fine as is, though my ideals are different.

I understand, and my comment on moonfire/sunfire was likely glib enough to trigger your alarm bells. I'll own up to that.

I love balance druid. I created my druid alongside my warlock in the times where warlocks were still farming soul gems. Anything I do for this class is because I want to see it get better, not worse. Because I have played other classes and see missed opportunities they did with this one.

In fact, I still will likely play this spec. It's just that I'm disappointed that they came up a bit short in what is yet another revamp of the spec.
---

I want to clarify, I'm completely fine with the astral power system and the idea of empowerments by spending astral power on finishers. It's completely the right move. They DID improve the spec.

The gripes I have is that other specs that were ahead of us were also improved, and so in certain aspect our relative standing in matters of utility, survival, and control for nuking capacity in some formats will need to be addressed down the line.

Hell, I think people's complaints about burst aoe for mythic+ dungeons would be neatly put to rest if full moon did undivided damage to all targets struck (PvE/PvP split, might be more instant burst, but in terms of burst windows i don't think it would eclipse things like demonhunters or WW monk or warrior or fire mage and be too much to ask).

[thr0waway]

Played Moonkin for a lot of the second half of WoD. I know the question gets asked a lot in this thread, but seeing as how we're this close to release, how is it looking? From what I understand, we're solid ST DPS and mediocre AoE DPS. Are we competitive? How are we in mythics+?

[lappee]

A utility of even more marginal use than stampeding roar. Utility that you yourself don't even benefit from yet takes up an artifact power slot, and if you care to browse most of the beta forums people universally don't find useful in mythic+ dungeons because mana problems are not what's failing people in said dungeons. Healers aren't even balanced to need Innervate to perform; the impact of Innervate is rather tiny compared to the utility we lost.

So you dont like Innervate because you dont directly (getting healed doesnt count?) benefit from it.
Mana problems might not be why people are failing in mythic+ dungeons, can't really comment on that as I havent done any of them myself

Just because healers performance isnt balanced around needing innervate doesnt mean it wouldnt be useful. Raids were never designed with the need of Stampeding Roars in mind yet they helped alot.

Replace "other" for some. Because shamans didn't lose heroism as a vital group buff, they didn't lose their aoe 5 second stun, and their Thunderstorm remained a baseline ability while our Typhoon was made a talent to compete with Bash (an inferior version of Capacitor Totem that's single target with a longer cd), and they gained our stampeding roar as a totem to boot. Hunters certainly didn't lose their utility niche, adn both mages and rogues retained their utility as soakers. Shadow priests kept mass dispel and vampiric embrace while our nature's vigil got tossed in the trash bin.

Heroism isnt shaman specific, they did lose that originality a long while ago. Hunters lost Aspect of the Fox a while ago. Theres plenty of other soakers available as well so theres nothing specific about that ability.
We lost Nature's Vigil but gained extra range on our spells, theres lots of back and forth if you want to compare each spec with each other about lost and gained stuff. You seem to pick just the stuff that "benefits" your argument and leave everything else aside.

And balance druid has no more depth than a demonology warlock in legion or a surrender to madness shadow priest (where the actual outcome of performance failure is death of the player).

Most certainly balance druid does not have the complexity of a legion feral druid, for the mere fact that multidotting as an energy based melee spec with tight timers has far more intricacies to consider (blood talons, savage roar, and now jagged wounds which reduces their window to renew on an energy and cp starved system).

Any class has its min-max options but a BM hunter for example will never have the depth of a shadow priest.

Different classes have different things to consider, I can't say whether Feral druid is more complex than Balance druid but there will be disparity in depth - just like theres disparity in Mythic+ competitiveness.

Fair point, because I failed to mention single target as my basis for interaction.

Empowerments are exactly what you call interaction between spells so even if you did mention single target you'd be wrong.

Which is now the case of elemental shamans and destro warlocks (or any warlocks as well), since their resource generation to do any damage at all is far more tied to those multidot procs than we are at the moment with the removal of shooting stars from WoD.

Elemental shamans get single target dmg boost from dot ticks so they hardly count, no idea about warlocks but I'll take your word for it. We generate AsP if talented and our damage actually comes from our dots on multi target situations and they play together with Starfall.

Now you're splitting hairs. Sunfire was not Insect Swarm any more than wrath was starfire back in vanilla. Both were dots and both were nukes, but they have been separate spells in visuals and in name.

Insect Swarm was a dot that we had for a long while, even when we had eclipse mechanics in place. It got then removed and replaced by Sunfire because Blizzard wanted to go with more Astral theme for moonkins and visuals changed for the same reason. Had there not been an Astral theme then we'd still most likely have Insect Swarm in our toolkit.

How would solar wrath be useless? Solar Wrath would still come out ahead of LS without LS empowerments. Rethink your position instead of losing time on petty hypotheticals about what I would and not cry about.

Because it would be point blank the filler in our rotation and nothing else. Seems like people hate fillers and want their spells to actually do ~major~ damage thus my point of it becoming useless. Most likely people would argue for removing all together when Lunar Strike does the same thing already.

Can't blame you, with comments like these many people also need to take a break often.

So please stop then.

"You" is used in a general sense, not individually ("you cannot run before you walk"). I'm not clairvoyant so I don't know what content you participate in, don't make this all about some vendetta I have against you.

But you used "you" individually in that sentence. If you don't have a vendetta against me then stop acting like it.

Hardly, in a raid sure. The obvious point is that not all game formats involve the luxury of rare 3-5 sec movement. Doesn't remove the fact that a mage or hunter is doing more damage than you can on the move.

Talking about forever running dps then yeah, they do. Considering short movement they don't. Now you have to go into specific scenarios to get anything else out of this argument.

Insults and dismissal are not arguments. All you've provided is judgement.

I haven't insulted you nor have I dismissed your arguments. I've provided plenty of arguments.

Compare the dot interaction mechanisms of flame shock, affliction dots with Compound Interest trait, SWP and sphere of insanity and void eruption. Additional mechanisms, and admittedly in my opinion (since apparently I need to spell it out) more interesting than what we have if we do not talent for shooting stars.

Could be as simple as baking a modified version of the shooting stars talent we have in and replacing that tier with something else.

Sunfire - Spreads to nearby targets, clearly different than Moonfire. Just because you prefer other mechanics over this one doesnt mean its not there.
You want our talent baked into our basic spells so that we can be more alike some other class? I guess you know the solution to that problem.

Granted, I failed to specify single target and neglect aoe so that's on me.

Doesnt change anything though, we're still a multidot spec even if our dots dont interact as much with our single target rotation as it does for other specs.

I'd dispute Innervate's importance, it's rather mediocre.

Innervate remains utility spell no matter what your opinion.

[Lucrece]

So you dont like Innervate because you dont directly (getting healed doesnt count?) benefit from it.
Mana problems might not be why people are failing in mythic+ dungeons, can't really comment on that as I havent done any of them myself

Just because healers performance isnt balanced around needing innervate doesnt mean it wouldnt be useful. Raids were never designed with the need of Stampeding Roars in mind yet they helped alot.

Right, and in the case of Innervate it simply doesn't. It's a 3 min cd single target mana cost reduction cd. Go out and do some mythic+ dungeons yourself to arrive at the same conclusion most other people already have, which is why the beta forums speak largely ill of it.

Now, if it wasn't only usable on healers, it would actually be pretty potent utility and synergy for say, a warlock or arcane mage who burn through mana severely.

Heroism isnt shaman specific, they did lose that originality a long while ago. Hunters lost Aspect of the Fox a while ago. Theres plenty of other soakers available as well so theres nothing specific about that ability.
We lost Nature's Vigil but gained extra range on our spells, theres lots of back and forth if you want to compare each spec with each other about lost and gained stuff. You seem to pick just the stuff that "benefits" your argument and leave everything else aside.

Your alternatives for heroism in a mythic+ dungeon are either mage or BM hunter, neither of which have an aoe 5 sec ranged stun, purge, or a 12 sec cd ranged interrupt.

Extra range on our spells isn't really going to amount to much of anything in most game formats, especially in arenas where all it means is you're about to get LOS'd by a pillar.

Mythic+ and arenas are all about classes with condensed utilities, which balance druids simply don't have. You bring neither aoe stuns, or bloodlust, or short cd interrupts. Your two utilities, rebirth (which is also brought by dk and warlock, if we're gonna play your game) and innervate are of highly situational utility, one requiring a point of failure to be useful and the other being of marginal usage (in arenas, people die long before healers run out of mana at the moment, in mythic+ people don't wipe because a healer ran out of mana).

Different classes have different things to consider, I can't say whether Feral druid is more complex than Balance druid but there will be disparity in depth - just like theres disparity in Mythic+ competitiveness.

Yeah, we're just discussing how much of it people want.

Empowerments are exactly what you call interaction between spells so even if you did mention single target you'd be wrong.

Interaction unrelated to dots, and the only meaningful interaction is for lunar strike, where it finally becomes used over wrath if it's empowered in a single target scenarion. In any other case you would have used solar wrath whether it was empowered or not.

Elemental shamans get single target dmg boost from dot ticks so they hardly count, no idea about warlocks but I'll take your word for it. We generate AsP if talented and our damage actually comes from our dots on multi target situations and they play together with Starfall.

No, it seems you forgot how ele shamans function now. Lava Burst is a maelstrom generator. Multiple lava surges means multiple malestrom procs which means more earthquakes, aka an aoe spell; in a single target it means more earth shocks.

More lava bursts also means their cooldown on their main dps cooldown, fire elemental, gets shortened by 2 seconds. More importantly, their lava burst with the artifact procs a volcanic inferno, which is cleave aoe.

Warlocks generate soul shards on immolate tick crits. Which translates into either more chaosbolts or rain of fire. Immolate also causes their imp to do 50% more damage to the target and immolate also controls who Channel Demonfire hits, whether it be single target or multiple targets as the projectiles will hit targets with immolate on them.

Insect Swarm was a dot that we had for a long while, even when we had eclipse mechanics in place. It got then removed and replaced by Sunfire because Blizzard wanted to go with more Astral theme for moonkins and visuals changed for the same reason. Had there not been an Astral theme then we'd still most likely have Insect Swarm in our toolkit.

I won't read into their intent given their inclination to prune as much as they can, as the affinities clearly show.

Because it would be point blank the filler in our rotation and nothing else. Seems like people hate fillers and want their spells to actually do ~major~ damage thus my point of it becoming useless. Most likely people would argue for removing all together when Lunar Strike does the same thing already.

Solar Wrath already IS a filler in our rotation. There's not a circumstance where you cast lunar strike when it's not empowered or mobs aren't clumped up within 5 yards of each other.

What solar empowerment does is every once in a while your wrath you're spamming anyways hits somewhat harder.

Talking about forever running dps then yeah, they do. Considering short movement they don't. Now you have to go into specific scenarios to get anything else out of this argument.

Specific scenarios like arenas, or battlegrounds? Not as niche as you seem to imply.

Sunfire - Spreads to nearby targets, clearly different than Moonfire. Just because you prefer other mechanics over this one doesnt mean its not there.
You want our talent baked into our basic spells so that we can be more alike some other class? I guess you know the solution to that problem.

This is an oversimplification of my position, please stop that. I said MODIFIED for a reason. And if you're going to argue procs from dots make us more like other classes, what do our filler nukes and builder/spender system make us? The pendulum was far more unique in that regard so please spare me this homogenization concern when we can agree that being different is not always the right solution.

Doesnt change anything though, we're still a multidot spec even if our dots dont interact as much with our single target rotation as it does for other specs.

Any class with a dot is by that definition. It's the perk of a dot spell. Most classes have some way to do decent spread damage by now, and in terms of multidot we're not even the best right now.

Innervate remains utility spell no matter what your opinion.

Water walk and shroud of concealment are also utility spells, clearly not in the same tier of other utility which is what we've been trying to argue because utility does not exist in a vacuum and in a scenario of 5 mans or 3v3 where spots are limited it's all the more important that all the specs offer something compelling to consider bringing them.

[lappee]

Right, and in the case of Innervate it simply doesn't. It's a 3 min cd single target mana cost reduction cd. Go out and do some mythic+ dungeons yourself to arrive at the same conclusion most other people already have, which is why the beta forums speak largely ill of it.

Now, if it wasn't only usable on healers, it would actually be pretty potent utility and synergy for say, a warlock or arcane mage who burn through mana severely.

As I said, I dont know of Mythic dungeons as I havent done any but that is still just one aspect. Even if its bad there its useful in others.
Blizzard wants innervate to be a healer thing, we've seen what its like if theres no such restriction.

Your alternatives for heroism in a mythic+ dungeon are either mage or BM hunter, neither of which have an aoe 5 sec ranged stun, purge, or a 12 sec cd ranged interrupt.

Extra range on our spells isn't really going to amount to much of anything in most game formats, especially in arenas where all it means is you're about to get LOS'd by a pillar.

Mythic+ and arenas are all about classes with condensed utilities, which balance druids simply don't have. You bring neither aoe stuns, or bloodlust, or short cd interrupts. Your two utilities, rebirth (which is also brought by dk and warlock, if we're gonna play your game) and innervate are of highly situational utility, one requiring a point of failure to be useful and the other being of marginal usage (in arenas, people die long before healers run out of mana at the moment, in mythic+ people don't wipe because a healer ran out of mana).

You can always use lust drums (unless they arent usable in there but I doubt it), yeah they're not as effective but will do the job if other classes are better than those who provide the actual stuff.

You seriously downplay what extra range means.
In Arenas Balance druids can have short CD interrupt if they so wish (and it is very powerful).
For Mythic+ we bring AoE silence, knockback (works as 2nd aoe interrupt), good off-heals, innervate, rebirth, AoE Taunting Treants. Plenty of utility.

Yeah, we're just discussing how much of it people want.

More like you whined how little we had it

Interaction unrelated to dots, and the only meaningful interaction is for lunar strike, where it finally becomes used over wrath if it's empowered in a single target scenarion. In any other case you would have used solar wrath whether it was empowered or not.

Interaction is unrelated to dots but thats not what you were after in the first place. You were talking only about our spells not having any interesting interactions and it may very well be your opinion but its not a fact.

No, it seems you forgot how ele shamans function now. Lava Burst is a maelstrom generator. Multiple lava surges means multiple malestrom procs which means more earthquakes, aka an aoe spell; in a single target it means more earth shocks.

More lava bursts also means their cooldown on their main dps cooldown, fire elemental, gets shortened by 2 seconds. More importantly, their lava burst with the artifact procs a volcanic inferno, which is cleave aoe.

Warlocks generate soul shards on immolate tick crits. Which translates into either more chaosbolts or rain of fire. Immolate also causes their imp to do 50% more damage to the target and immolate also controls who Channel Demonfire hits, whether it be single target or multiple targets as the projectiles will hit targets with immolate on them.

Lava Burst generates maelstorm but so does Chain Lightning which is better when theres enough targets in a pile (which is where you'd use your earthquakes anyway)
Artifact proc is a fair point, I've no clue how much damage it is though.

I won't read into their intent given their inclination to prune as much as they can, as the affinities clearly show.

Theres no need for you to read the intents. Just embrace that I am right and you are wrong.

Solar Wrath already IS a filler in our rotation. There's not a circumstance where you cast lunar strike when it's not empowered or mobs aren't clumped up within 5 yards of each other.

What solar empowerment does is every once in a while your wrath you're spamming anyways hits somewhat harder.

Solar Wrath indeed is a filler already but as you said it empowers very regularly which makes it feel less of a filler.

Specific scenarios like arenas, or battlegrounds? Not as niche as you seem to imply.

Still very niche, specially in arenas you dont just run all the time. In Battleground you might but there you're godlike aoe dps anyway so you should be happy.

This is an oversimplification of my position, please stop that. I said MODIFIED for a reason. And if you're going to argue procs from dots make us more like other classes, what do our filler nukes and builder/spender system make us? The pendulum was far more unique in that regard so please spare me this homogenization concern when we can agree that being different is not always the right solution.

Theres no oversimplification at all, its all what you've said earlier in this thread.
Being different with a bad mechanic and being different with a good mechanic are two different things. Being different with a bad mechanic didnt work so rather than going full overhaul and thinking of a new new mechanic they instead went with a (pretty basic) builder spender system with its own mixture of stuff that is different from others. More importantly more people are happy about it than sad.

Any class with a dot is by that definition. It's the perk of a dot spell. Most classes have some way to do decent spread damage by now, and in terms of multidot we're not even the best right now.

Which definition are you going with? Considering multidot is short for multiple damage over time so with our 2 dots we're a multidot class - Shaman isnt. If we go by that definition.

As for our dps, we're still quite strong even if we're not the best.

Water walk and shroud of concealment are also utility spells, clearly not in the same tier of other utility which is what we've been trying to argue because utility does not exist in a vacuum and in a scenario of 5 mans or 3v3 where spots are limited it's all the more important that all the specs offer something compelling to consider bringing them.

Then you should start thinking about all the utility spells that we have instead of being stuck at "We dont have AoE stun, We dont have purge, We dont have 12sec dc ranged interrupt"

[Selerian]

This is getting ridiculous and not at all constructive. What say you lads call it a night?

[Deleted]

i think it's quite interesting to read and I appreciate both sides.
but I also think our dots could have a little interaction with at least some possibility to procc something.

a specc without any procc or randomness sounds a little bit stale

[Kyanion]

Theres no need for you to read the intents. Just embrace that I am right and you are wrong.

Really? You need to make a statement like that? You aren't right just because you say you are. Lucrece has made many great points, not all of them I agree with, but this is a discussion about our spec as a whole. I think the empowerments are pretty bland with nothing such as procs or interactions to spice up the rotation. I think our 'utility' is underwhelming and innervate is awful.

If I wasn't a die hard moonkin until I quit playing WoW I'd have taken a good hard look at Ele Shammy because damn some of their stuff is really fucking fun to play. We need to stop dissecting every single thing in a long post and nitpicking it to death. It isn't accomplishing shit except having people come in the thread and rage.

- - - Updated - - -

i think it's quite interesting to read and I appreciate both sides.
but I also think our dots could have a little interaction with at least some possibility to procc something.

a specc without any procc or randomness sounds a little bit stale

Exactly, SOME randomness was nice. I mean in beta we had Owlkin Frenzy which could randomly proc and give us a free cast, that interaction is now gone. Hell speaking of OKF we lost the moon moon line being instant cast options. Our dots no longer proc anything and don't interact too much with our kit. It is why I pointed to Ele shammy because they really have some fun interactions that reward the player on managing their maelstrom bar. There isn't too much of a reward managing the Astral Bar because we know where we are at all times and there is hardly any randomness to it outside of the Shooting Stars talent.

[Lucrece]

Really? You need to make a statement like that? You aren't right just because you say you are. Lucrece has made many great points, not all of them I agree with, but this is a discussion about our spec as a whole. I think the empowerments are pretty bland with nothing such as procs or interactions to spice up the rotation. I think our 'utility' is underwhelming and innervate is awful.

If I wasn't a die hard moonkin until I quit playing WoW I'd have taken a good hard look at Ele Shammy because damn some of their stuff is really fucking fun to play. We need to stop dissecting every single thing in a long post and nitpicking it to death. It isn't accomplishing shit except having people come in the thread and rage.

- - - Updated - - -



Exactly, SOME randomness was nice. I mean in beta we had Owlkin Frenzy which could randomly proc and give us a free cast, that interaction is now gone. Hell speaking of OKF we lost the moon moon line being instant cast options. Our dots no longer proc anything and don't interact too much with our kit. It is why I pointed to Ele shammy because they really have some fun interactions that reward the player on managing their maelstrom bar. There isn't too much of a reward managing the Astral Bar because we know where we are at all times and there is hardly any randomness to it outside of the Shooting Stars talent.

I think Selerian makes a fair concern, so it's best if we end that snippy back and forth. I never should have replied to begin with, for the very quote you're highlighting is a prime example of a road that leads to nowhere good. There's no good faith in this discussion.

People are better off stating their view and if somebody chooses to be rude about their disagreement, just move on. The others suffer when we subject them to pages of multi-quote posts.

[Tyze]

Oh my god, every forum is the same. "That class is better", some talking about Elemental being better than the Balance. Please go and read the Elemental thread and you'll see Elementals saying the opposite thing.

[Kilma]

I actually like innervate because of that 20% haste buff.

[Kyanion]

Oh my god, every forum is the same. "That class is better", some talking about Elemental being better than the Balance. Please go and read the Elemental thread and you'll see Elementals saying the opposite thing.

You misunderstand me when I said I liked elemental. I enjoy how their playstyle is, with lava burst procs, some interesting talent choices like the ice nuke that buffs 4 frost shocks, some fun little options. I don't know how GOOD some of them are, but I don't care how a class is performing RIGHT NOW, all that matters is how they do in Legion. And if something is underperforming I know Blizz will adjust things.

I think Elemental has a very fun core set of abilities and talents that can really influence the styles. Many classes are bitching about how they play and blah blah blah but I am only looking out for my spec. I think our defensives are a touch underwhelming and our utility is kind of subpar compared to what others can bring. Will it stop me from playing Balance? Nope. But I want to do what I can to have our spec be the best it can be.

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I actually like innervate because of that 20% haste buff.

I'd love it a TON more if it wasn't just locked to healers only. I'd love to fire that onto an arcane mage for example.

[Myztikrice]

It would just be another Power Infusion or Tricks of the Trade which makes other players feel bad and which they've said they want to move away from

[lappee]

Really? You need to make a statement like that? You aren't right just because you say you are. Lucrece has made many great points, not all of them I agree with, but this is a discussion about our spec as a whole. I think the empowerments are pretty bland with nothing such as procs or interactions to spice up the rotation. I think our 'utility' is underwhelming and innervate is awful.

Context please, the forum is a mess exactly because of posts like this that rage for no other reason than ignorance.

If I wasn't a die hard moonkin until I quit playing WoW I'd have taken a good hard look at Ele Shammy because damn some of their stuff is really fucking fun to play. We need to stop dissecting every single thing in a long post and nitpicking it to death. It isn't accomplishing shit except having people come in the thread and rage.

Theres been no nitpicking, only quoting whole posts.

I think Selerian makes a fair concern, so it's best if we end that snippy back and forth. I never should have replied to begin with, for the very quote you're highlighting is a prime example of a road that leads to nowhere good. There's no good faith in this discussion.

Oh these plenty of good faith, you just need to learn to admit when you have been defeated.

People are better off stating their view and if somebody chooses to be rude about their disagreement, just move on. The others suffer when we subject them to pages of multi-quote posts.

Stating ones view is fine, whining is not - theres a really clear difference.

[Kyanion]

Context please, the forum is a mess exactly because of posts like this that rage for no other reason than ignorance.

Theres been no nitpicking, only quoting whole posts.


Oh these plenty of good faith, you just need to learn to admit when you have been defeated.

Stating ones view is fine, whining is not - theres a really clear difference.

Okay first of all you haven't "defeated" anyone. In fact you are being quite petty in breaking down posts to point out how you 'win' them. You ARE nitpicking, you both have been taking huge walls of text, breaking them down into small quotes and just cramming as much in them as you can to point out how you 'win'.

If you fail to see ANY good points in what Lucrece has said and need 'context' I don't know what to tell you.

Good lord man, this isn't a thread where you are out to beat the other posters and win against them, there are plenty of other threads where it happens but this shouldn't be one of them.

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It would just be another Power Infusion or Tricks of the Trade which makes other players feel bad and which they've said they want to move away from

Fair enough, but in some ways with the 20% haste buff it will be like that just for healers. I agree though it is likely the wrong direction to go with that spell.

[lappee]

Okay first of all you haven't "defeated" anyone. In fact you are being quite petty in breaking down posts to point out how you 'win' them. You ARE nitpicking, you both have been taking huge walls of text, breaking them down into small quotes and just cramming as much in them as you can to point out how you 'win'.

In the specific argument I did, I had an argument he couldnt defuse. That is called a victory.

If a post has multiple points regarding totally difference subject then yeah I'm going to break it down. That is not nitpicking, its common sense.

If you fail to see ANY good points in what Lucrece has said and need 'context' I don't know what to tell you.

I never said he didn't have. All I wanted is to him stop whining.

Good lord man, this isn't a thread where you are out to beat the other posters and win against them, there are plenty of other threads where it happens but this shouldn't be one of them.

If there are arguments about factual things then for sure its thread where one beats the other. If opinions are arguments then its another matter.

[Cyous]

I'd love it a TON more if it wasn't just locked to healers only. I'd love to fire that onto an arcane mage for example.

Did you play during Cata? That was some of the most obnoxious shit. Giving a support cooldown designed for healers....to a mage. Dark Intent, TOtT, Symbiosis (for DPS -- it used to give Recklessness), all of these DPS-boosting buffs designed for support devolved into "gief to best dps"

[Kyanion]

Did you play during Cata? That was some of the most obnoxious shit. Giving a support cooldown designed for healers....to a mage. Dark Intent, TOtT, Symbiosis (for DPS -- it used to give Recklessness), all of these DPS-boosting buffs designed for support devolved into "gief to best dps"

I've been balance since Vanilla Cyous. Yes it wouldn't be the best of ideas to allow it to go to dps but it is pretty underwhelming as a healer only cooldown coming from a dps class.

[MV Kaa]

I've been balance since Vanilla Cyous. Yes it wouldn't be the best of ideas to allow it to go to dps but it is pretty underwhelming as a healer only cooldown coming from a dps class.

Other classes have cooldowns for dps, it would make more sense for innervate to go to healers. It would be pretty boring if you just stacked all dps cds onto one player