PSA: You want to use Fel Rush even without Momentum.

[Schizoide]

Pretend it's not good lol.

Thanks, that was very helpful. I'll just hit myself in the head with a microwave oven until I get so stupid I don't realize I suck.

[table3]

Thanks, that was very helpful. I'll just hit myself in the head with a microwave oven until I get so stupid I don't realize I suck.

Ok I guess?

It seems all you want to do is bring Fel Rush baseline down so it's too shit to use. Then you can do the SAME dps you were doing without the regular unnerfed one in the rotation. You have yet to say how to get the other Style up. It seems all you're concerned about is an excuse not to use Fel Rush and if it is shitty enough you wont use it. All I am saying is buff Blind Fury and pretend Fel Rush is shit damage. But still benefit from it if you need to run away from the boss and clip him.

But go ahead and slam your head in a microwave that sounds reasonable.

[Hexxidecimal]

How is it simpler. I would think:

Buff Blind Fury

Would be simpler then:

Nerf Fel Rush
Bake Fel Rush Nerf into Momentum

The other spec still does the same damage. Momentum if you choose that spec still does the same damage. Yes Fel Rush unnerfed would still do a lot of dps, but if you're using it as just a Defensive CD I don't see the issue. Unless you just need Fel Rush to be nerfed not to click it. Which could simply be fixed by not clicking it.

Sure they can just not use it, but since they CAN to increase their DPS most people interpret this as they "have" too. This perception doesn't change by simply buffing the things they would rather be doing as they still "should" be Fel Rushing.

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Ok I guess?

It seems all you want to do is bring Fel Rush baseline down so it's too shit to use. Then you can do the SAME dps you were doing without the regular unnerfed one in the rotation. You have yet to say how to get the other Style up. It seems all you're concerned about is an excuse not to use Fel Rush and if it is shitty enough you wont use it. All I am saying is buff Blind Fury and pretend Fel Rush is shit damage. But still benefit from it if you need to run away from the boss and clip him.

But go ahead and slam your head in a microwave that sounds reasonable.

I would still buff the other two options on top of this to bring them more in line. In the end the point is to address the point of this thread, which is push fel blade as much as possible because it's a dps increase no matter what. Some people don't want to push this button and if it's an increase they will feel like they have too. Baking in Fel Rush damage elsewhere and buffing the other options to be closer to 2-3k dps is, in my opinion the best option.

Of course this could all be moot if the idea of not pushing Fel Rush isn't within the devs vision of class fantasy.

[Schizoide]

Obviously talents need to be balanced, and Fel Mastery is waaaaay stronger than the two alternatives in most situations. But Fel Rush is worth using even without Fel Mastery, because it does great damage baseline and is free. I'm not talking out my butt on that BTW-- I simmed it earlier in the thread.

[Zeds Dead]

Keep momentum build and buff the other tiers above worthless.

We need atleast 1 other playstyle with talents that have good synergy like momentum does.

The benefit of having one dps spec was it should be well designed with maximum developer attention. We have seen the exact opposite of havoc so far.

[Kyriani]

I'm honestly expecting Blizzard to change something regarding Fel Rush. I don't mind the playstyle but if too many people avoid the class as a whole because of it, I guarantee that will motivate Blizzard to offer an alternative that's a competitive option to Fel Rush.

[Hexxidecimal]

Coming from experience it really isnt that different the only difference is waiting a second on a fel rush or other ability to pretty much dump everything in the 4 seconds as opposed to just pressing it because its off of cooldown. Luckily blizzard was really good with the cooldowns so they usually line up perfectly with each other. Its very rare unless you mess up that throw glaive is on cd when felrush isnt or eye beam and even if they are on cd you should have many other abilities to press / dump. Kind of the main reason i never use nemesis the playstyle doesnt change much and its lower dps.

Was just discussing this with a buddy. He likes fel rush, dislikes momentum. He plays like this. He just fel rushes back to back. Forward and then back to his original position. Then he just does it on cool down after that. No need to try and dump fury within a cool down window and no need to make sure he has fury saved up for that cool down window. He doesn't like the idea of fel rush, dump fury then try real hard to build it back up quickly so he can Fel Rush again and repeat. He find it too hectic. He does like using Fel Rush though, so he just does them on cool down with no regard to where his fury is currently.

That being said he also doesn't like prepared because he doesn't bother using VR. He just uses Demon Blades. It's not optimal but it's a bit more relaxing than trying to juggle the momentum buff.

I am kinda bad at accurately VRing to where I want so I might try this style.

[Schizoide]

The benefit of having one dps spec was it should be well designed with maximum developer attention. We have seen the exact opposite of havoc so far.

It's actually pretty stunning. Min-maxing all the way, you devote 5 out of 7 talents specifically to support the Momentum playstyle. Two to buff Fel Rush and Vengeful Retreat, two to buff Glaive Toss (as you are often out of range when Vengeful Retreating unless you turn your back to the boss), and Momentum itself.

[Kyriani]

I think Fel Rush and Fel Mastery can stay as is... but I would expect some talent that replaced Fel Rush with a non-movement ability for a competitive dps output.

[ufta]

I'm honestly expecting Blizzard to change something regarding Fel Rush. I don't mind the playstyle but if too many people avoid the class as a whole because of it....

...I will celebrate.

[Schizoide]

...I will celebrate.

Classic WoW forum response, glorying in other players not having fun.

[Kyriani]

...I will celebrate.

Until "Blizzard offers an alternative that's a competitive option to Fel Rush" of course...

[mitre27]

People select the class touted as the most mobile in the game, then complain when they have a movement based dps rotation... I really hope thy do not change anything if I wanted to stand on a bosses arse and do my rotation there is every other melee DPS to play.
DH brings a new and enjoyable play style to the game, if people die during raid encounters due to using FR or VR at the incorrect time then all the better. It is part of the skill of being a dps to know when you can and cannot use your abilities. If a Rogue uses vanish when they have shackled torment on Arch mythic then he will wipe the raid. Is it a dps loss for the Rogue, of course, but its about doing the best dps you can within the mechanics of the encounter, not just spamming out your rotation mindlessly.
On nearly every encounter some classes have a mechanical advantage and some do not and that is ok. You cannot expect to be the best on every fight, sometimes FR and VR will hurt us, other times it will benefit us.

For starters, we're not the most mobile class in game, infact there are what, 2 classes/specs that are ahead of us, and how does being mobile translate into using your few mobility skills as dps skills? Not supportive dps skills but core ones?

[Hexxidecimal]

It's actually pretty stunning. Min-maxing all the way, you devote 5 out of 7 talents specifically to support the Momentum playstyle. Two to buff Fel Rush and Vengeful Retreat, two to buff Glaive Toss (as you are often out of range when Vengeful Retreating unless you turn your back to the boss), and Momentum itself.

Oh? So I don't have to VR through the boss I can just VR > Glaive Toss as I run back in?

[mitre27]

You are missing my point again. Please read my last paragraph that you quoted.

And finally regarding your last paragraph, this talent setup is already ahead because it is more complex. Don't be afraid to admit you can't play something and hide behind excuses like "tedious"(which I still believe you do not understand the meaning of). It doesn't mean you are bad! I can't get my head around the new retribution judgement system and just re-rolled. Nor can I do the animation cancelling so I accept I will do lower damage than those that can.

Difficult to play? Fel rush isn't a hard skill, you just go from the left side of the boss to the right etc, heck you don't even need to pick momentum, the only talent that forces fel rush is the first, and my god it's a huge increase, why do people kid themselves that stafe felrushing is hard? It's not.

Also animation canceling isn't intended and they do everything they can to prevent it, if it continues they will just flat out change skills to stop it.

Nobody can say that a first tier talent adding over 10% total dps to a class is balanced, are there any first row talents that are so far ahead regardless of whether it's an add fight or ST fight?

[Hexxidecimal]

For starters, we're not the most mobile class in game, infact there are what, 2 classes/specs that are ahead of us, and how does being mobile translate into using your few mobility skills as dps skills? Not supportive dps skills but core ones?

I'd say only 1, that of course being the Monk. That being said DHs are the most mobile class in the game IN combat. The decision to make our movement part of our DPS rotation isn't one done accidentally. That was the entire design idea for Havoc. I think that is self Evident. However I do support a spec that is less reliant on it's movement options for damage if not somewhat sub optimal in it's output. Just not 15% less optimal.

[Deleted]

Sorry but this argument is pointless as a whole. You use Fel Rush rotationally cause of Fel Mastery. If you not talented into Fel Mastery you are not going to use Fel Rush, plain and simple. Fel Rush has 0 artifact support, as soon as you get the Demon Rage perk Demons Bite suprasses Fel Rush in damage, furthermore has better synergy within a spec. A non-momentum build is not going to use Fel Rush. You are crazy to think that the level 99, 102, 106 talent row stays unchanged. They already stated in an interview for Vanion or Wowhead that a possible solution is to reduce the CD of Nemesis.

Momentum as community dividing playstyle is not going to stay the only competetive option, ppl. already complain that they have problem staying alive with momentum in 10+ Mythic+ dungeons. The talents that are far more superior will be changed or the other options brought up in-line.

[Hexxidecimal]

Difficult to play? Fel rush isn't a hard skill, you just go from the left side of the boss to the right etc, heck you don't even need to pick momentum, the only talent that forces fel rush is the first, and my god it's a huge increase, why do people kid themselves that stafe felrushing is hard? It's not.

Also animation canceling isn't intended and they do everything they can to prevent it, if it continues they will just flat out change skills to stop it.

Nobody can say that a first tier talent adding over 10% total dps to a class is balanced, are there any first row talents that are so far ahead regardless of whether it's an add fight or ST fight?

Apparently you don't even need to take Fel Mastery either. It's just a dps increase, period.

[Niwes]

i would love to play that class, if a) i dont had to rush over the half place just to do melee dmg and b) if it wouldnt feel like i have to press nothing every few seconds. that 2 things just sucks for me, with DH.

[Hexxidecimal]

Sorry but this argument is pointless as a whole. You use Fel Rush rotationally cause of Fel Mastery. If you not talented into Fel Mastery you are not going to use Fel Rush, plain and simple. Fel Rush has 0 artifact support, as soon as you get the Demon Rage perk Demons Bite suprasses Fel Rush in damage, furthermore has better synergy within a spec. A non-momentum build is not going to use Fel Rush. You are crazy to think that the level 99, 102, 106 talent row stays unchanged. They already stated in an interview for Vanion or Wowhead that a possible solution is to reduce the CD of Nemesis.

Momentum as community dividing playstyle is not going to stay the only competetive option, ppl. already complain that they have problem staying alive with momentum in 10+ Mythic+ dungeons. The talents that are far more superior will be changed or the other options brought up in-line.

Not according to sims apparently. Fel Rush is a DPS increase period supposedly. I should really learn how to use those damn sims so I am not just parroting other people...

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i would love to play that class, if a) i dont had to rush over the half place just to do melee dmg and b) if it wouldnt feel like i have to press nothing every few seconds. that 2 things just sucks for me, with DH.

Huh? You pretty much constantly have to push Demons Bite to build Fury. If you are taking Demon Blades try not taking it. You'll be pushing buttons constantly.