Legion - Assassination Discussion

[Spriestlawl]

If Legion was released in the state rogues are atm, would I be a fool to start out as assassination, upgrade my artifact weapon as just that and then in Mythic swap to outlaw?

Thanks in advance

The way artifacts work that'd be a terrible idea. It's going to take a lot, A LOT, of artifact power to make your artifact reasonable. Pushing any one artifact then swapping before you've fully committed is a bad choice imho. The best choice is probably committing to a swap AFTER you have your first minor trait unlocked, as the 2nd minor trait required enough AP to just fully unlock a 2nd artifact. Now, the issue comes in we aren't entirely sure how AK will scale, it's real fast right now on beta but it should take several days to get the same throughput at the start.

[Deleted]

I think a good solution for Sin aoe would be to increase FoK damage a lil bit or perhaps apply a bleed if more than X target got it idk. It is out only aoe ability and it used to be good back in the days, in cata for example sin was way better than now in aoe, 5 stacks of DP and damage went bananas. It was also more enjoyable to play as you had to keep envenom buff to better increase DP application and then ofc... spam FoK.

I don't think poisons could be active nor they need to, having mastery to also affect bleeds (even in a different way than how it currently does with poisons) instead would really make more sense. The spec feel slow, i agree and that's something can easily be fixed by adjusting energy cost of Rupture and Mut and their relative dmg ofc like someone suggested before.

I think agonizing poison should be removed and replaced by something more appealing than a flat damage increase... Something like "drop a vial on the ground that consume all active DP on targets within Z range to deal instant X+Y damage" that would drastically increase out aoe and would make our spec more enjoyable idk.

I've been playing rogue for a good 7 years now and i always had a special feeling for Sin, i'd really like to see it work in Legion, as for what artifact to choose well, i'd probably start with Sin and swap to Outlaw at some point, or vice versa i still have to decide, about Sub well, even tho the mechanics and new SD are fun (in my opinion) i just don't feel to play it, i'd rather go Outlaw and deal with its RNG.

[Spriestlawl]

I think a good solution for Sin aoe would be to increase FoK damage a lil bit or perhaps apply a bleed if more than X target got it idk. It is out only aoe ability and it used to be good back in the days, in cata for example sin was way better than now in aoe, 5 stacks of DP and damage went bananas. It was also more enjoyable to play as you had to keep envenom buff to better increase DP application and then ofc... spam FoK.

I don't think poisons could be active nor they need to, having mastery to also affect bleeds (even in a different way than how it currently does with poisons) instead would really make more sense. The spec feel slow, i agree and that's something can easily be fixed by adjusting energy cost of Rupture and Mut and their relative dmg ofc like someone suggested before.

I think agonizing poison should be removed and replaced by something more appealing than a flat damage increase... Something like "drop a vial on the ground that consume all active DP on targets within Z range to deal instant X+Y damage" that would drastically increase out aoe and would make our spec more enjoyable idk.

I've been playing rogue for a good 7 years now and i always had a special feeling for Sin, i'd really like to see it work in Legion, as for what artifact to choose well, i'd probably start with Sin and swap to Outlaw at some point, or vice versa i still have to decide, about Sub well, even tho the mechanics and new SD are fun (in my opinion) i just don't feel to play it, i'd rather go Outlaw and deal with its RNG.

As it stands, if mastery were to affect bleeds there'd be no way Agonizing would ever catch up. Rupture would need a significant nerf. Ruptures DPE is probably just fine, it provides so much dmg however Muts cost is just way too high imo. I like Agonizing as it is, I just wish we didn't have to swap out DP to get it. I think both Sub and Assassination need their AOE output tweaked. Both specs need an AOE finisher that's somewhat reliable and useful. It doesn't need to be outlaw level good, but just something to do other than Tab -> Rupture/NB -> FoK -> Tab -> etc

[Fheng]

Depends on what day it was our rogues work and aren't available for those tests, I'm one of them. If it was the Krosus test I was top two boss damage on most pulls, and the majority of our tests I am top boss damage even though it's a premade character without set bonuses that a large portion of our testers are using. Assasination was beyond fine(and a nerf to some degree was warranted however I felt the single target was fine based on the awful aoe for certain parts of encounters) , meters really don't give you an accurate representation on the spec compared to logs since quite a few of the tests have additional things you can aoe along with the boss. TLR Rogues are largely fine, although I've been playing sub more since the Exsan nerf.

But yeah we only have two rogues really, and they aren't around for every heroic test just the mythic ones usually.

yea idk it just seemed like every other class that day or maybe just that fight just had his number. I think it was tichondrius testing or something just seemed like we just don't have it on that fight. That's good to hear that we are fine because i seriously enjoy all three of the specs of mine and plan to play whatever is viable just wish we had more energy regen honestly. It was one of my main feedback points since alpha especially with outlaw but that's for another thread lol. Tichondrius tho seemed like a massive aoe fight and it wasn't lasting super long during some of the attempts, so throwing "bad" in there wasn't talking about whoever it was it was more of speaking towards the spec on that particular fight i forgot to clear that up so sorry if you thought i was trash talking one of your guildies. Thanks for the input tho it's good to know we are gonna be doing just fine.

[mitre27]

I've done mythic dungeons and they aren't that bad. Sure harder than heroic but not bad enough that aoe needs to matter imo.

Don't mythic dungeons work like challenge modes, as in timed?

[Wow]

Don't mythic dungeons work like challenge modes, as in timed?

Mythic ≠ mythic +

[Taliht]

yea idk it just seemed like every other class that day or maybe just that fight just had his number. I think it was tichondrius testing or something just seemed like we just don't have it on that fight. That's good to hear that we are fine because i seriously enjoy all three of the specs of mine and plan to play whatever is viable just wish we had more energy regen honestly. It was one of my main feedback points since alpha especially with outlaw but that's for another thread lol. Tichondrius tho seemed like a massive aoe fight and it wasn't lasting super long during some of the attempts, so throwing "bad" in there wasn't talking about whoever it was it was more of speaking towards the spec on that particular fight i forgot to clear that up so sorry if you thought i was trash talking one of your guildies. Thanks for the input tho it's good to know we are gonna be doing just fine.

That was actually me most likely, I did top boss damage during Tichondrius. The significant amount of adds skews damage meters quite a lot. However boss damage is pretty relevant to the encounter so rogues are fine on it honestly and I wouldn't worry about it that much.

[mitre27]

Mythic ≠ mythic +

True but regular mythic dungeons are irrelevant really, not even on the same level as normal raids.

[Taliht]

Since some people asked about artifact stuff, I'm leveling as outlaw and hoarding artifact power. Getting your first gold trait takes literally no time at 110 if you put in any amount of effort so if you want to be able to swap between outlaw and X spec may as well get your first gold in each. After that the cost goes up by quite a bit, also I'm most likely going to hoard as much power as possible til balancing happens after release since they tend to do knee jerk balancing when they release the raids and then a 2nd round on mythic week.

[kindath]

True but regular mythic dungeons are irrelevant really, not even on the same level as normal raids.

Mythic +2 is the same base ilevel as normal raids. Mythic +5 is the same base ilevel as heroic raids.

[Deleted]

Blizz could just halve the damage of Rupture and Garrote and change Venomous Wounds to deal Poison Damage equal to the original bleed tick. Increased mastery scaling, synergy between crit and mastery (critical bleed ticks would trigger higher poison tick) and you don't have to change a thing about gameplay.

[mitre27]

Mythic +2 is the same base ilevel as normal raids. Mythic +5 is the same base ilevel as heroic raids.

I know, it's why i said normal mythics are not even on the level of normal raids.

[Jaronicity]

So when do I use Exsanguinate now? What's the min duration on Rupture for it to be used?

[Gilor]

So when do I use Exsanguinate now? What's the min duration on Rupture for it to be used?

The way it's used hasn't changed, just become less impactful. You want a full duration rupture (preferably with pandemic from an earlier rupture) before exsang. No change.

[Spriestlawl]

That was actually me most likely, I did top boss damage during Tichondrius. The significant amount of adds skews damage meters quite a lot. However boss damage is pretty relevant to the encounter so rogues are fine on it honestly and I wouldn't worry about it that much.

It's important people realize, we have a niche a little bit, and we need to be aware of utilizing that role as best as possible.

[shaunika123]

That was actually me most likely, I did top boss damage during Tichondrius. The significant amount of adds skews damage meters quite a lot. However boss damage is pretty relevant to the encounter so rogues are fine on it honestly and I wouldn't worry about it that much.

the beauty of sub tho is that it can do okay AOE and funnel that AOE benefit into ST damage :P

[RobertoCarlos]

the beauty of sub tho is that it can do okay AOE and funnel that AOE benefit into ST damage :P

You mean can do decent AoE damage at the cost of ST damage. Also the discussion was about the benefit of having high ST so you get a raid invite which for some reason people are worried about some kind of 15 fire mage stacking in raids where all the melee are left to pug runs on the group finder or stressing out over making the "wrong" artifact decision and you're going to be clutching for points to not get left behide if you pick wrong, not like its going to be super easy to max out all artifacts once your research % is up

[shaunika123]

You mean can do decent AoE damage at the cost of ST damage. Also the discussion was about the benefit of having high ST so you get a raid invite which for some reason people are worried about some kind of 15 fire mage stacking in raids where all the melee are left to pug runs on the group finder or stressing out over making the "wrong" artifact decision and you're going to be clutching for points to not get left behide if you pick wrong, not like its going to be super easy to max out all artifacts once your research % is up

it doesnt really cost ST damage since you can abuse finality with 5 point eviscs every 2nd global, even if it is a single target dps loss it's barely noticable(this is without classtrinket ofc since you wont have that on 110)

and i get that that's what this is about, im just saying that sub can pull similar ST numbers (above 850 gear, in low gear assa is still pretty ahead) and it can still contribute to AOE a bit, hell sub has more burst AOE than outlaw if they dont run CB

[Azzurri]

Man, even soloing old raids it's painfully slow because of the energy regain.

[Spriestlawl]

You mean can do decent AoE damage at the cost of ST damage. Also the discussion was about the benefit of having high ST so you get a raid invite which for some reason people are worried about some kind of 15 fire mage stacking in raids where all the melee are left to pug runs on the group finder or stressing out over making the "wrong" artifact decision and you're going to be clutching for points to not get left behide if you pick wrong, not like its going to be super easy to max out all artifacts once your research % is up

Rogues will not be brought for their "aoe dmg contribution", it's simply not good enough. Doesn't matter how people slice it. It's mediocre at best. What does help is having 4 consistent targets up to keep perma SD and funnel ST dmg into the priority.