Buff heroic or make 10 man mythic

[kary]

The issue was more like half the game's population quit because the expansion sucked ass, and not being able to crossrealm raid in mythic, it had little to do with the size of mythic raid teams.

True, but most of the people that were complaining about the size weren't people who were able to do mythic anyway. Like, I highly doubt anyone would crossrealm pug with a group/guild learning HFA without some sort of emotional attachment. Now think of trying to pug Gorefiend. I'm being pessimistic, I know.
Can't recruit without mythic kills, can't get kills without recruits.

[Deleted]

5 million left because they couldn't find 19 others. Heard it here first guys. I bet we would have 500000 more mythic guilds if there was 10man available.

[Magnosh]

Yeah that's unfortunate. Were you at least clearing heroic at that time? Like I know our strategy is (was) to have a constant thread in guild recruitment, to attract fish. Granted of the many fish we got only 2 weren't awful, but they were enough to hold us until we got more. Also we merged with another guild.

Yes, we were always doing it but people needed less and less gear.

We ended up doing 5/13 mythic as full guild group (no one came from other realms tho). We had a 32% Wipe on Gorefiend the last raid before Christmas and then we lost some people to irl stuff and hanged a bit between puging crossrealm people each week to calling raids to having trials with shitty mentality like fake dc when they though it was too hard to do mythic and stuff like that. To a point were doing Council was getting hard...it was getting ridiculous.
I couldn't be arsed to move to another guild/server since I was getting too much burned out, so I explained the situation to all raiders and told them to split to the other 2 guilds in the realm that had a more or less stable team at that time, the ones that didn't quit did it and are all 13/13 mythic.

I came back to give it another chance and most of them left those guilds and got back to mine because I guess they didn't really enjoy the mood/people in there. So lets see if the hype from Legion brings more people but in the end if this doesn't work and blizzard doesn't do a thing to fix servers I'm done with WoW.

[Schattenlied]

True, but most of the people that were complaining about the size weren't people who were able to do mythic anyway. Like, I highly doubt anyone would crossrealm pug with a group/guild learning HFA without some sort of emotional attachment. Now think of trying to pug Gorefiend. I'm being pessimistic, I know.
Can't recruit without mythic kills, can't get kills without recruits.

I'm assuming the guilds would already have these people joining from other servers regardless, if the crossrealm system was more open there would be no reason to consider them any different from someone actually on the server... And if these guilds had been able to access those players for mythics before the subs dropped through the floor, it wouldn't have been as big of a problem, if any at all.


SO... I'm not saying it would have helped that much after the fact, it would have, however, helped if it had been that way from the start.

[Magnosh]

Just to point out that I went as far as whispering officer from other guilds that hadn't started mythic progression yet, guilds that had little heroic progress and previous expansion heroic raiding guilds asking if they would like to join us even if they didn't really truly left their guild and remained there with mains or something, some replied that they had quited raiding until Legion, some that they were simply not interested and other saying that they ''just got 20 raiders and will be raiding mythic themselves'' and therefor were not interested (it was obviously not my place to tell them that if they only had 20 players they would have a bad time).

[kary]

I'm assuming the guilds would already have these people joining from other servers regardless, if the crossrealm system was more open there would be no reason to consider them any different from someone actually on the server... And if these guilds had been able to access those players for mythics before the subs dropped through the floor, it wouldn't have been as big of a problem, if any at all.


SO... I'm not saying it would have helped that much after the fact, it would have, however, helped if it had been that way from the start.

Well, they changed it so you can do (crossrealm)mythic from the get go in legion last I checked, so we'll see how things go.

[Ashkiman]

Either of these needs to be done or it will just be a repeat of WoD again with raiding guilds falling apart en masse struggling to maintain a 20 man mythic roster and already having long cleared heroic and having nothing to do progression wise. And what a lot of people don't realize is that when this happened in WoD, it didn't just hurt mythic raiders, it hurt raiders, non raiders, everyone. Because guilds aren't just made up of raiders, and a lot of people didn't just leave their guilds and find new ones, a lot of people just ended up getting sick of joining guilds that broke up and left the game all together.

Links to highly rated threads from WoD about this issue:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/18596067834
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/19288929186
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...roy-your-guild

I want this expansion to succeed, it's looking pretty good so far. But if Blizzard doesn't address this issue from the previous expansion I just don't see that happening, it led to a lot of people unsubbing in WoD. And now that they've returned it could just happen all over again. I see so many people recruiting for guilds on my server and I'm hopeful about the prospect, but at the same time I'm scared because of this issue.

5 levels of upgrade for each item should make heroics last longer, at least for those who want to farm gear.

[Prokne]

Going from 40-25 man was probably a big raid guild killer but I wasn't around for that. I was around at the end of Wrath/beginning of Cata when the changes to raiding killed off the 25man guild and the 25man raid because you could only do one size a week. We have been paying for that decision ever since. It was the reason LFR was created and flex is sort of a fix. Of course now that you have flex, if you want to raid mythic, just have a 20man roster for flex heroics. It should be really easy because you can have +- a few people and still go through heroic until you get to mythic. As a former 25man raider, I don't understand why putting together 20man is so hard except people not really into the game any more.

[kary]

Going from 40-25 man was probably a big raid guild killer but I wasn't around for that. I was around at the end of Wrath/beginning of Cata when the changes to raiding killed off the 25man guild and the 25man raid because you could only do one size a week. We have been paying for that decision ever since. It was the reason LFR was created and flex is sort of a fix. Of course now that you have flex, if you want to raid mythic, just have a 20man roster for flex heroics. It should be really easy because you can have +- a few people and still go through heroic until you get to mythic. As a former 25man raider, I don't understand why putting together 20man is so hard except people not really into the game any more.

10mans fostered the unfriendly clique mentality. people want to raid with THEIR 9 friends and noone else
Honestly that's the root of the issue more than anything. 10 man guilds/players are aggressively hostile to outsiders, from what i've seen/experienced.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I personally would seek a middle ground. Fixed raid size for mythic for competitive play. AKA if you want to rank in the world etc you have to be in a 20 man mythic sized raid. It scales to absolute perfect competitive game play. Then have a flex mythic that releases a month or so after the rest so your average joe guilds that take a month or two to clear heroic then have more to progress on instead of just farming heroic (which becomes very easy and boaring). Give one a different color armor or something so they can feel good about pixels. Give everyone else something to fucking do with their raiding team after heroic.

[Kakera]

Speaking as an elitist hardcore raider I hope the game goes to sub 500k players so that you casual scrubs get the fuck off my game and go play runescape or some shit. Seriously.

[Deleted]

Well, they changed it so you can do (crossrealm)mythic from the get go in legion last I checked, so we'll see how things go.

source for this?

[kary]

I personally would seek a middle ground. Fixed raid size for mythic for competitive play. AKA if you want to rank in the world etc you have to be in a 20 man mythic sized raid. It scales to absolute perfect competitive game play. Then have a flex mythic that releases a month or so after the rest so your average joe guilds that take a month or two to clear heroic then have more to progress on instead of just farming heroic (which becomes very easy and boaring). Give one a different color armor or something so they can feel good about pixels. Give everyone else something to fucking do with their raiding team after heroic.

Nah.
You got stuff like the archi mount from heroic, that's good enough. If you aspire for greater things, break free of your shackles

source for this?

Can't remember where I saw it, but I have been under the assumption that the change that allowed HFC xrealm mythic hasn't/won't be undone. I could be wrong though. One of our core raiders took the first flight off illidan to camp the BMAH on some low pop realm, lol.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Nah.
You got stuff like the archi mount from heroic, that's good enough. If you aspire for greater things, break free of your shackles

Problem with your logic is I have been 13/13 mythic for a pretty good time now. So my shackles are broken and laughed at. I just care about everyone in the game instead of just my little world that has rapidly been threatened by not needing to exist anymore because people like you are more interested in your separation than supplying content to all raiders playing the game instead of the tip of the spear.

[kary]

Problem with your logic is I have been 13/13 mythic for a pretty good time now. So my shackles are broken and laughed at. I just care about everyone in the game instead of just my little world that has rapidly been threatened by not needing to exist anymore because people like you are more interested in your separation than supplying content to all raiders playing the game instead of the tip of the spear.

I'm not interested in separating the wheat from the chaff.
I'm interested in keeping what they made for competition intact. Mythic is the way it is for a reason. If people are done with heroic and have no aspirations to move on and adapt to do the harder content, that's up to them. You want a 5th difficulty that badly?

[Prokne]

10mans fostered the unfriendly clique mentality. people want to raid with THEIR 9 friends and noone else
Honestly that's the root of the issue more than anything. 10 man guilds/players are aggressively hostile to outsiders, from what i've seen/experienced.

I tried raiding 10 man in Cata because that was all there were guilds for but it was not "big" enough for me. Having only 10 people never felt like raiding. And I joined a guild that was together for a while so it was kind of like how you describe.

[Relapses]

I personally would seek a middle ground. Fixed raid size for mythic for competitive play. AKA if you want to rank in the world etc you have to be in a 20 man mythic sized raid. It scales to absolute perfect competitive game play. Then have a flex mythic that releases a month or so after the rest so your average joe guilds that take a month or two to clear heroic then have more to progress on instead of just farming heroic (which becomes very easy and boaring). Give one a different color armor or something so they can feel good about pixels. Give everyone else something to fucking do with their raiding team after heroic.

Flex Mythic will never, ever work on a competitive level. Even if it's "gated" after a month, the encounters still need to be designed with the possibility of Flex which greatly devalues the strategic opportunities for raid mechanics. And even then, guilds would still feel compelled to bench players to attain whatever is perceived to be the easiest raid size for any given encounter since a vast majority of Mythic guilds are still progressing after a month.

The idea seems diplomatic in theory but in execution would be absolutely terrible. It solves nothing and brings about more issues than it addresses.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I'm not interested in separating the wheat from the chaff.
I'm interested in keeping what they made for competition intact. Mythic is the way it is for a reason. If people are done with heroic and have no aspirations to move on and adapt to do the harder content, that's up to them. You want a 5th difficulty that badly?

Mostly because I care about the total health of the game instead of tunnel vision of what I find enjoyable. Lets say there are 200 more difficulty levels and my guild does 20 man mythic -- an insane overkill number. My guild still does 20 man mythic. What exactly has changed in my enjoyment? Really not much at all. What other people are doing really, really, really doesn't matter at all to me. All I can about is my guild having a good time and the game around it being filled with people that are also enjoying themselves. The more that are enjoying the game and raiding within the game gives me a lot. The more guilds of all different levels being alive, raiding, and doing what they do means my guild has a bigger recruiting pool. It means more servers are alive and well. It means the game is in a much better spot. It has more BOEs on the AH. Economic situations grow stronger as supplies are more requested and required. Mythic raiding has been the way it is for as reason yes, and for its WHOLE LIFE CYCLE the game has utterly nose dived. I cannot confirm or deny if it is or isn't the reason for the nose dive but you cannot deny WoD has been been pretty disastrous in the games total health and WoD was an expansion based around raiding as the end game and mythic raiding being very close to the center of that.

I want WoW to be a better game for everyone. Raiding being better for more people is simply to profitable for anyone that seriously raids at any higher level.

- - - Updated - - -

Flex Mythic will never, ever work on a competitive level. Even if it's "gated" after a month, the encounters still need to be designed with the possibility of Flex which greatly devalues the strategic opportunities for raid mechanics. And even then, guilds would still feel compelled to bench players to attain whatever is perceived to be the easiest raid size for any given encounter since a vast majority of Mythic guilds are still progressing after a month.

The idea seems diplomatic in theory but in execution would be absolutely terrible. It solves nothing and brings about more issues than it addresses.

Which is why you don't have it on a competive level. Which is why its fixed for competive. Did you read the post I wonder?

[Relapses]

Which is why you don't have it on a competive level. Which is why its fixed for competive. Did you read the post I wonder?

...you're accusing me of not reading your post when I very clearly mentioned that competition still exists even after the WF guilds get kills. Your arbitrary definition of competitive isn't one-size-fits-all. Why would a guild competing at 20M continue to try progressing on 20M if suddenly 13M Flex Mythic was way easier? To boot, all of the encounters would still need to be designed with flexibility in mind, which, as I said, is a huge deterrent to encounter design. The only other way this could possibly work was if you gave the Flex Mythic version of the instance different gear, at which point you're proposing a fifth raid difficulty in a game which already has too many raid difficulties to begin with.

[kary]

So Greater Rifts/Mythic+....raids?

Lmao.

Dude, no.