How can someone pick Altruis over Kayn?

[KrazyK923]

Not to mention that his fallen comrades that he ordered to kill are now part of the Burning Legion, only because of his actions. He failed big time on this, something I really can't just overlook.

Because of his actions?

They died and KJ revived them and tempted them with power.

Nothing Altruis said in BC was wrong.

Furthermore, what Kayn does to Akama is a joke and shows absolutely how evil Illidan's forces actually are. Reading how the Shade of Akama fucks up Akama in the Illidan book, nobody should pick Kayn.

[Melsiren]

Yes but are you okay with the fact that Kayn is Blizzard's canon choce in lore? This screws hard every person that picks Altruis, as they are basicaly living in their own bubble and makes the whole Altruis choice kinda pointless if you ask me.

I said in a past post I was not okay with the fact players had a choice that went against the cannon choice.

[Viradiance]

I would never side with a brainless fangirl like Kayn.

[Deleted]

Yes but are you okay with the fact that Kayn is Blizzard's canon choce in lore? This screws hard every person that picks Altruis, as they are basicaly living in their own bubble and makes the whole Altruis choice kinda pointless if you ask me.

I honestly don't see what that matters... just because blizz had to choose someone doesn't mean my or anyone else choice is worthless.

[Viradiance]

I said in a past post I was not okay with the fact players had a choice that went against the cannon choice.

Actually would be kinda neat if Blizzard used the player metrics of "which choice did most players who actually leveled to 110 and completed the campaign side with?" to decide what would be canon

[Fincayra]

I picked him simply because he might offer a more interesting story later on in the game. A subordinate that is loyal and unquestioning is boring. One who might attempt to dethrone you is entertaining.

[Cl4nK]

Kayn = Cain

Altruis = Altruistic.

It's simple. I'm not a backstabbing brother murderer.

/thread

We can close it up and head home.

[yetgdhfgh]

I had to choose this prick because i already chosen Kayn on my other DH and i felt compelled to see how Altruis would pan out but boy did it make me feel dirty.

We follow Kayn all throughout the questing starting zone and then we decide to chose this guy who just pops out of nowhere in the prison?

Though it did pain me i must applaud blizz for giving me the option i love it when my actions have consequences down the line.

[Gradingus]

At least, if anything, picking Altruis over Kayn makes things a little more interesting

[OIS]

You do understand you can disagree with someone, and not be vocal about the fact you disagree with them?

Of course, but if you shared Altruis' concerns it's strange that you're not vocal about them. Even if you, for whatever reason, chose to keep them to yourself, Altruis' actions should dissuade you from sympathizing with him. I mean, he killed your fellow demon hunters, why should you overlook his betrayal? PC demon hunter obviously have not, since he/she stayed with Illidan until the end. If you had no issues with Altruis' deeds, why have you stayed with the Illidari? Why haven't you joined Altruis during TBC? From an Illidari's perspective, Kayn is the right choice.

[UnluckyAmateur]

Because I don't trust the others to actually contain their power. Altruis is the only one seemingly showing real restraint, so perhaps he can teach that to the others.

After legion maybe, but restraint is something that we shouldn't really be focusing on too much considering the threat we are facing.

[Wildmoon]

The same reason someone would identify more with the Tushui more than the Huojin pandaren, and choose them for any other reason than to play their panda as Alliance.

Preferring morals over action, being unwilling to do what is necessary to accomplish one's goals. They'd rather sit and wait, so that when the actions of those who actually do something result in something unpleasant like the turtle experiencing some pain when they got the ship out of his side, they can be all high and mighty and feel like they're morally superior for not being involved in the thing that resulted in the negative experience of someone, all while benefitting from it, but refusing to acknowledge that it is a benefit, like the Tushui's leader being mad at her boyfriend for setting the turtle on the path to recovery, rather than leaving him to die slowly from infection by the Alliance airship in his side. Or the Silver Covenant HEs condemning the Blood Elves for doing what they thought necessary to keep their strength up so they could survive and save Quel'thalas from the Scourge, while the Silver Covenant didn't have even the smallest fraction of the difficulties the Blood Elves had, and didn't do anything to help.

That's what makes Altruis dumb, and it's laughable to think that Illidan lorewise would have picked a demon hunter (the player) as a very trusted lieutenant to lead the mission to Mardum if said demon hunter were so opposed to their master's methods that got results that they'd willingly choose Altruis over Kayn.


The Huojin, Blood Elves, and Illidari didn't have time to do things the "right way" as the Tushui, High Elves, and Altruis would define it.


And after what Altruis did, it's stupid for anyone to pick him as second-in-command for any reason other than preferring a Night Elf character, if they really like what makes a demon hunter a demon hunter: not letting morals get in the way of the greater good, and certainly not undermining your comrades by going off as a rogue agent messing everything up for them.


In a battleground, which team do you think is going to win?

1. The team that's very coordinated, has a clear goal in mind, knows their role, and follows instructions, regardless of their personal feelings

2. The team that's full of tons of people running around aimlessly with no idea what they're doing, not following the leader's instructions because they think that they know a better way

The answer is obvious.

Malfurion saved the world 2 times without uneccessary sacrifice. He sacrificed(Nordrassil,WoE) when it was absolutely neccessary. Illidan's version of sacrifice tends to be for the sake of convenience than anything. Can't beat demons?>Get more power>how to get more power?>sacrifice whatever easy to access. That's what going on in their loyal Illidari's brains.

Khadgar would have fallen prey to the legion if he thought that he needed to take up the guardian power. Thankfully, he was smarter than that.

[Qualia]

Because of his actions?

They died and KJ revived them and tempted them with power.

Nothing Altruis said in BC was wrong.

Not true.

Varedis died, and then his soul got captured and tortured by Kil'Jaeden. Yet, he was able to resisted still, he wasn't tempted with power - nor did he give in to pain. That showed us that the DHs aren't as close to going insane / giving in to the demons in their minds as we thought. Only when KJ half-deceived him by revealing to him that it wasn't the demons, nor the Shadow Council that caused his death. The one betrayed him was one who knew abut his power, one of the Illidari (it wasn't entirely a lie as Altruis was once an Illidari). It was the shock and grief when he found out he was betrayed by one of his "brothers and sisters" that caused Varedis to give in.

Thus, while Varedis didn't directly lead Varedis to corruption, he is the main indirect cause of it. What he said might not be wrong now (and it was true during TBC) - depends on when he split off, since with the new information from Legion & "Illidan", if Altruis stayed long enough to come with the DHs to a single battle, he'd have known that Illidan was neither corrupted with power nor twisted by defeat. I'd give him the benefit of doubt and assume he split off early before that.

Furthermore, what Kayn does to Akama is a joke and shows absolutely how evil Illidan's forces actually are. Reading how the Shade of Akama fucks up Akama in the Illidan book, nobody should pick Kayn.

I disagree with this.

To be honest, I liked Akama until recently. However, after "Illidan" was release, my opinion of his character dropped a lot. It's one thing if Akama always thought that Illidan were lying or being a pawn of the Legion, and went behind his back making plans to rebel against him. That'd have been fair - sure, you can't know what isn't revealed to you, just like us player character(s). Yet, it's another thing when we found out Akama DID realize later that Illidan was speaking the truth (when he was talking to Maiev later), but proceed with his plans anyway since he didn't like how his people were treated - even when he knew Illidan was going to assault Argus soon. He had some clues of what Illidan was doing, but decided to prioritize some of his people over the entire universe. Not only he decided getting back the BT was more important than destroying an universal threat, he couldn't wait for another few weeks for Illidan to finish his assault on Argus - which likely would deal a lot of damage on both Legion & Illidari sides? I wouldn't fault him for being small-minded, but that's also short-sighted as hell. We'd rather keep someone like that on a tight leash, if possible.

It wasn't like Kayn didn't give Akama any chance either. He was trying to talked. He offered a chance for mutual cooperation. It only turned into a forced one after Akama not turned the offer down but also tried to kill us.

Malfurion saved the world 2 times without uneccessary sacrifice.

I'm sure the many deaths during the Sundering and the destruction of the biggest continent back then were necessary, sure. Not to mention the plan was of Illidan, but Malfurion took all credits for it. Had Illidan carried it out, it'll be extremely likely that he'd be condemned of overdoing it - heck, Malfurion already did that when he stopped Illidan from sacrificing Northrend to end the Lich King threat forever (hypothetically, if Illidan went through with it, we wouldn't have to face the "There must always be a LK" threat because the Scourge army wouldn't have years to build up their numbers)

I'm not saying that Illidan's sacrifices were justified - after all, he himself grew and questioned himself if what he did was wrong, or if there was another way to win the war without any sacrifice that he couldn't find (during "Illidan"). Whether the sacrifices are justified or not largely depend on the result anyway - if we didn't stop Illidan and he destroyed KJ (+ his lieutenants) during TBC, I doubt anyone would argue the sacrifices of some Draenei's souls to deal that much damage to the Legion were unnecessary. However, claiming that Malfurion's sacrifices were unnecessary is laughable.

[KrazyK923]

I'll give you that: "Illidan" and Legion really retconned how shifty the Demon Hunters acted.

Thus its pretty shitty for Altruis to be judged on his mostly correct assessment of the situation back then just because Blizzard wants to redeem Illidan and hand wave away all the terrible shit he did under the guise of "luls but the universe!"

As for Akama:

He's entirely justified in his revenge on Illidan after Illidan sacrificed the SOULS of so many of his people to power the portal to Nathreza. That's a level above and beyond "I lied to you about giving you back Black Temple" (Even though we know Illidan did plan to...eventually). Akama joined with Illidan to save his people from the Fel Orcs and Magtheridon, and Illidan proved to be far more deadly to their populace than he ever was.

In that situation, it doesn't matter how right Illidan ended up being. He just stole the souls of a ton of Akama's people in a demonic ritual that, iirc, Akama didn't even know the true plan of. And even if he did, he certainly wasn't aware that Illidan was going to do what he did to his people, because he freaks out.

Despite what Blizzard is trying to shove down people's throats with all of this absolutely ridiculous whitewashing of Illidan: Even when you've become the Savior trope and are endowed with all the knowledge of the universe, you can still cross a line when you're murdering tons of people and stealing their souls for your rituals. You don't get a free pass just because some bullshit about prophecy and becoming Kerrigan.

[Deleted]

and so the thread continues: limp wrist parade vs reasonable folk who prefer Kayn

[Deleted]

and so the thread continues: limp wrist parade vs reasonable folk who prefer Kayn

well those limp wrist parade are actually the ones that don't want redemption for Illidan
the way I see it the outcome will be the same since Altruis trusts Akama and Kayn trust Maiev
We choose Altruis both him and Akama will turn against Illidan when we defeat the Legion
We choose Kayn then Maiev will be the one who will turn against Illidan when we defeat the Legion

[Manabomb]

So you're saying that loyalty is a weakness?

"You trust no one and believe in nothing. You are a leader with no followers."


edit:

and I certainly can agree with you that Illidan has failings - and that his moral compass certain points in a direction that many people dislike, and downright hate. He did sacrifice lives, and throughout the book you can even see his plans for torturing Maiev. I totally believe that he's a character that is downright at some level, fairly evil.


But why should the PC choose a known betrayer? People need to remember that the PC from a lore standpoint doesn't have all of this knowledge we do. They're a higher up in the Illidari ranks - and they're leading an elite force handpicked by Illidan. What does that tell you of their trust in Illidan?

Because is not Illidan himself a betrayer? Who is more like whom, is a better question here.

[Deleted]

well those limp wrist parade are actually the ones that don't want redemption for Illidan
the way I see it the outcome will be the same since Altruis trusts Akama and Kayn trust Maiev
We choose Altruis both him and Akama will turn against Illidan when we defeat the Legion
We choose Kayn then Maiev will be the one who will turn against Illidan when we defeat the Legion

I have never seen a reason for his redemption. He did nothing wrong, even if he himself question himself. In my eyes he is absolved of all little bad deeds.
Yes, well, Altruis, Akama and Maiev deserve their own jolly portion of beheading.

Kayn is the only way. Anything else is a pure madness.

[Wyrt]

and so the thread continues: limp wrist parade vs reasonable folk who prefer Kayn

At the end of the day, Illidan failed and the Illidari were captured because Illidan was a shitty leader who pissed off everyone and their mother. Whether you think Illidan was right for being a jackass or not is kind of irrelevant. He failed in his mission because he did awful things and couldn't control his minions who also did awful things.

Why be loyal to a guy that failed?

[Deleted]

At the end of the day, Illidan failed and the Illidari were captured because Illidan was a shitty leader who pissed off everyone and their mother. Whether you think Illidan was right for being a jackass or not is kind of irrelevant. He failed in his mission because he did awful things and couldn't control his minions who also did awful things.

Why be loyal to a guy that failed?

It is too early to say that he failed. Surely, he lost a battle, but we know now that it is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. He was not a shitty leader. Pissing everyone is merely a result of the greater good being in action. He failed because we were stronger at that time, plot is a thick armour.

Ridiculous question. Loyalty once given can not be taken away. Loyalty is not a fotm.