The Horde - Warchief Sylvanas Windrunner

[Mehrunes]

Saurfang, Voljin, Cairne, where all at the Battle of Mount Hyjal, just because in Warcraft 3 we play olny with Thrall, doesnt mean that he wasnt there, or was part of all the war effort. Just like Lana'thel fought in icecrown in the last stage of TFT.

And yet, there's no mention of that anywhere. With Lana'thel we have plenty.

And u didnt mention the Might of Kalimdor, which was lead by Saurfang himself.

Because you did and I can read. I wasn't contesting that, what would be the point of just repeating it, exactly?

And it is clear that Voljin choose Sylvanas and not Go'el, Saurfang, Eitrigg, Baine or any others because of that Loa stuff he said. Point.

Not because she was capable, not because she is loved. Ppl r so dumb.

And you were discussing her military capabilities and not the reason for her being chosen so I'm not sure what your point is.

[Niwes]

She leads the elves against the Horde when they invade Quelthalas And is one of the primary reasons they turn back. Whatever book that was in Turaylon was in it too.

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yea Alleria was trapped in the dark portal, she never was the best of the three sisters or a ranger general, just clearing that up for anyone else.

you misunderstand everything. the book (also with turalyon and the forming of the silver hand) is "beyond the dark portal" and the trap was made by the lich king, for sylvanas. and sylvanas nowhere there lead the "big fights". the orgrim-leaded fight in the woods and in the highlands was with aleria, lothar and so on. that was the big fights. also the landing in southshore. sylavans was simply not there, because alleria was. and syl was not that great friend of humans etc. alleria did the most things in that book, not sylavans. syl essentially fight a short time in ghostlands (the forest, dont know the name at the moment) and shortly after that was traped and enslaved by arthas.

maybe you have to read that book again

so, i have to repeat: there is no existing story, book or lore, where sylvanas was that great stratetig longterm commamder in a long and big war. dont know why ppl always believe that. it just dont exist. prove me the opposite, if you can.

and by the way, they didnt turned back. half of silvermoon is fallen in that book... but i cant remember for sure if it was arthas scourge or the horde.

[Friendlyimmolation]

you misunderstand everything. the book (also with turalyon and the forming of the silver hand) is "beyond the dark portal" and the trap was made by the lich king, for sylvanas. and sylvanas nowhere there lead the "big fights". the orgrim-leaded fight in the woods and in the highlands was with aleria, lothar and so on. that was the big fights. also the landing in southshore. sylavans was simply not there, because alleria was. and syl was not that great friend of humans etc. alleria did the most things in that book, not sylavans. syl essentially fight a short time in ghostlands (the forest, dont know the name at the moment) and shortly after that was traped and enslaved by arthas.

Its you that don't seem to understand. Every elf including Alleria was the subordinate of Sylvanas. orcs pushed out of Quel'thalas by the elves are done so under the command of Sylvanas.

and shortly after that was traped and enslaved by arthas.

No where else has a force given the scourge so much trouble as Sylvanas did until the players fought him. She stalled him long enough that he was mad enough to turn her into a banshee.

so, i have to repeat: there is no existing story, book or lore, where sylvanas was that great stratetig longterm commamder in a long and big war. dont know why ppl always believe that. it just dont exist. prove me the opposite, if you can.

Aside from Warcraft three where she outsmarts garithos and Dreadlords, throughout wow where she leads the Forsaken to drive off the Scarlet Crusade and the Scourge

The orcs never touched Silvermoon. They got as far as eversong.

[Xorn]

i don't remember the alliance reducing people to sludge or anything though? seems a bit OTT imo

Dead is dead is dead. Why is one way of killing someone inherently worse than another when both have the same end result?

[Casthiel]

She won't work as a warchief and then they have the perfect excuse to bring back the green jesus to lead again.

[Candy Cough]

Y'all cutting gallywix out of everything already

At the age of like 10, Gallywix had managed to defeat the criminal syndicate that had loan sharks everywhere on Kezan singlehandedly, couple of days later and he was basically in full control over the entire Isle, military or not, Gallywix is a VERY efficent leader and I wouldn't be mad at all if we got him as warcheif

Sure the other leaders are good and capable but none of them get's me exited and is the same old boring sterotypes of their respective races
Baine: Peace Peace Peace, Did I mention Peace? We must have peace and can never got to war even if its neccessary
Lor'themar: None of my people decided to lift a finger to help the horde for 3 expansions, and when we finally did we almost betrayed them
Saurfang: There is nothing greater than Honor! *Yawn*

If done right Gallywix could be an interesting pick for warchief

[Friendlyimmolation]

Y'all cutting gallywix out of everything already

At the age of like 10, Gallywix had managed to defeat the criminal syndicate that had loan sharks everywhere on Kezan singlehandedly, couple of days later and he was basically in full control over the entire Isle, military or not, Gallywix is a VERY efficent leader and I wouldn't be mad at all if we got him as warcheif

Sure the other leaders are good and capable but none of them get's me exited and is the same old boring sterotypes of their respective races
Baine: Peace Peace Peace, Did I mention Peace? We must have peace and can never got to war even if its neccessary
Lor'themar: None of my people decided to lift a finger to help the horde for 3 expansions, and when we finally did we almost betrayed them
Saurfang: There is nothing greater than Honor! *Yawn*

If done right Gallywix could be an interesting pick for warchief

You can't swindle the alliance or the legion which is 100% of his strategy . Leader wise he's a money grubber and doesn't inspire any sense of loyalty and has shown no military brilliance.

[Irian]

She doesn't act like the Lich King. Why the hell do people keep saying this?

Undercity is literally right next to Hearthglen. Hearthglen. A place that is essentially the bastion of the the Light and actively works to purify blight on the plaguelands. She tolerates them, she fights alongside orcs and even Varian. Her mentality is that the people who are not with her are against her. This is also a mentality shown by a large amount of playable races on Azeroth, she just has the metaphorical balls to actually say it.

You can hate Sylvanas for being kind of a ruthless bitch and you can hate her for raising the dead (and also giving them the choice to return to death if they want) but she is in no way the Lich King. This is something Garrosh spewed because he hates necromancy and the undead as a whole. The Lich King wanted to conquer, Sylvanas simply wants what remains of the Kingdom of Lordaeron for herself and the Forsaken. Whether that's morally correct is kind of a big question, but it's definitely nowhere near Arthas status.

[Friendlyimmolation]

He would get points if he managed to deceive the Deceiver.

Hed die screaming in the nether lol

[Candy Cough]

She doesn't act like the Lich King. Why the hell do people keep saying this?

Undercity is literally right next to Hearthglen. Hearthglen. A place that is essentially the bastion of the the Light and actively works to purify blight on the plaguelands. She tolerates them, she fights alongside orcs and even Varian. Her mentality is that the people who are not with her are against her. This is also a mentality shown by a large amount of playable races on Azeroth, she just has the metaphorical balls to actually say it.

You can hate Sylvanas for being kind of a ruthless bitch and you can hate her for raising the dead (and also giving them the choice to return to death if they want) but she is in no way the Lich King. This is something Garrosh spewed because he hates necromancy and the undead as a whole. The Lich King wanted to conquer, Sylvanas simply wants what remains of the Kingdom of Lordaeron for herself and the Forsaken. Whether that's morally correct is kind of a big question, but it's definitely nowhere near Arthas status.

She basically lost andorhal, then she went completely Lich king and brought in her Valkyr and nuked the shit out of the thing with plague then Imprisoned Koltira for incompotence

[Friendlyimmolation]

She basically lost andorhal, then she went completely Lich king and brought in her Valkyr and nuked the shit out of the thing with plague then Imprisoned Koltira for incompotence

Koltira failed, not Sylvanas. Sylvanas didn't raise mindless ghouls. And she didn't plague it.

[Alsonia]

Yeah, except, Southshore hasn't taken any land from the Horde... Mostly a fishing village.

She awakens them in the first place though. They never really had a choice in that. Sylvanas plagues civilians routinely, and somehow everything is written off as "misunderstandings," or "she totally didn't know about it!"

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Again, naming a few differences isn;t much of anything. Your argument is bad. You keep focusing on the OPs use of the words "no differences" ... but we all know there are a few. That doesn't diminish any of her deeds though.

I love people justifying Sylvanas by "Not knowing it was happening" if she can't keep ONE race in line, good fucking luck with the Horde.

[Deleted]

The Lich King wanted to conquer, Sylvanas simply wants what remains of the Kingdom of Lordaeron for herself and the Forsaken. Whether that's morally correct is kind of a big question, but it's definitely nowhere near Arthas status.

Yes, she definitely wants what remains of the Kingdom of Lordaeron for herself...

...and Gilneas, too...

...and why not Arathi, since it's so conveniently nearby... (no, the undead Galen Trollbane doesn't have a legitimate claim, succession happens at the death of the noble in question and other Trollbanes still live, most notably Danath)

...wait did I just see some Forsaken apothecaries in Hinterlands? Must be my imagination.

Yeah, she just wants to be left alone. And maybe conquer juuuuust a little bit. Only the places that she can reach, then her reach increases with each conquest, then... before we know it she owns a third of a continent. How is she different from Garrosh, besides "you couldn't become an orc to gain value for Garrosh, but you can become undead for Sylvanas"?

[Friendlyimmolation]

I love people justifying Sylvanas by "Not knowing it was happening" if she can't keep ONE race in line, good fucking luck with the Horde.

Stillwater kidnapped and locked away forsaken officials and falsified reports. No shit she didn't know about hillsbarad farms

[Mehrunes]

She basically lost andorhal, then she went completely Lich king and brought in her Valkyr and nuked the shit out of the thing with plague then Imprisoned Koltira for incompotence

Koltira lost one skirmish with Alliance making a surprise attack and breaking their truce. Using Val'kyr is not being "completely Lich King" and no nukes or Blight was used at Andorhal. And Koltira was rightfully imprisoned.

[Irian]

She basically lost andorhal, then she went completely Lich king and brought in her Valkyr and nuked the shit out of the thing with plague then Imprisoned Koltira for incompotence

I'm not going to say that taking Koltira was correct or ethical, but that's up to a military leader and I would argue that Sylvanas was more lenient than many would have been for crime easily punishable by death.
Koltira was serving the Forsaken army at the time and I feel like it's not a stretch of the imagination to say he was doing so willingly. If you enlist yourself in an army you're not above their punishment system, and ignoring the sassy remarks, Sylvanas was absolutely not in the wrong to punish Kol'tira for, if you saw the Alliance side, actually sabotaging the Forsaken's advantageous stance in Andorhal. The Forsaken were winning or at least holding ground until Kol'tira called off troops instead of attacking the Alliance because of his own personal friendship, does it take a rocket surgeon to figure out what's morally questionable about that act?

Also, as far as I remember, Sylvanas never used plague on Andorhal. She used Val'kyr, which are...well, her personal soldiers. Just very strong necromantic death angel soldiers. I don't see much wrong with that, other than the obvious moral questions about necromancy which are pretty valid but are really the only connecting trait between the LK and Sylvanas.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Yes, she definitely wants what remains of the Kingdom of Lordaeron for herself...

...and Gilneas, too...

...and why not Arathi, since it's so conveniently nearby... (no, Galen Trollbane doesn't have a legitimate claim, succession happens at the death of the noble in question and other Trollbanes still live)

...wait did I just see some Forsaken apothecaries in Hinterlands? Must be my imagination.

Yeah, she just wants to be left alone. And maybe conquer juuuuust a little bit. Only the places that she can reach, then her reach increases with each conquest, then... how is she different from Garrosh, besides "you couldn't become an orc to gain value for Garrosh, but you can become undead for Sylvanas"?

Garrosh wanted gilnaes, Sylvanas obviously can't stop fighting the damage is done.

Lol at the claim, claims mean shit. Might equals right.

The forsaken were in hinterlands to gain venom from a loa.

[Deleted]

Stillwater kidnapped and locked away forsaken officials and falsified reports. No shit she didn't know about hillsbarad farms

What about the living people being kept as spider chow in the mines, right to the south of Stillwater's fun camp, then? Or the brainwashed human pet walking around undercity? Or a number of deadly "human" experimentation that apothecaries do constantly in quests (crusader and dwarf in Tirisfal Glades, draenei in Hellfire Peninsula)?

"No living rights" seems to be the rule of Sylvanas' kingdom, not the exception. I mean, it's fun, it's atmospheric. But from an in-universe perspective there's no way to defend it. The Forsaken aren't reviled because they don't have skin on their knees, but because monstrous deeds are the norm for them.

Might equals right.

That's usually how it is with the Horde. There's a lot of babbling about "reasons", and "honor", but in the end they're bullies who'll TAKE anything they WANT if they CAN.

Which makes it very awkward how much crying there is any time they're shoved back. History proves Jaina is right, and ironically, her father was right.

[Friendlyimmolation]

What about the living people being kept as spider chow in the mines, right to the south of Stillwater's fun camp, then? Or the brainwashed human pet walking around undercity? Or a number of human experimentation that apothecaries do consantly in quests (crusader and dwarf in Tirisfal Glades, draenei in Hellfire Peninsula)?

"No living rights" seems to be the rule of Sylvanas' kingdom, not the exception. I mean, it's fun, it's atmospheric. But from an in-universe perspective there's no way to defend it. The Forsaken aren't reviled because they don't have skin on their knees, but because monstrous deeds are the norm for them.

The simple answer is the forsaken don't give a shit. It goes back to the grey area when you realize that both factions have terrible people and forces working for them (locks, sps, dks)

As an in universe answer, no one else knows about it, probably not even most forsaken know half the stuff the apothecaries do.



And you're full of shit if you say the alliance is any better in that regard. Jaina was wrong and so was her dad and says this in war crimes.

[Deleted]

And you're full of shit if you say the alliance is any better in that regard. Jaina was wrong and so was her dad and says this in war crimes.

Friendly disclaimer, I actually have more Horde characters than Alliance, just have no problem calling a maniac a maniac. With that in mind...

Alliance is better in that regard. They start less wars, and treat the defeated better as a rule. Sure there are war crimes. Bad apples on both sides. But Forsaken method of warfare is exceptionally monstrous (plague bomb everything, rez a bunch of dudes and see what sticks), and it's the norm. The only things as destructive were... mana bomb, used by the Horde again (don't point fingers at "big bad Garrosh" - Horde leader ordered Horde troops to attack using Horde equipment, and even if it made the rest of the Horde feel uncomfortable he wasn't deposed until three content patches later, it was Lok'tars all around until he turned on his own people)... and the Lich King.

And don't get me started with the old Horde, which not only slaughtered people, it killed entire kingdoms, for which they were all exe... no wait, merely isolated. Again, "demons" are a convenient scapegoat, but then in Draenor... they did the same without demons. Might makes right alright.

Horde are, and have always been, a terrible neighbor.