Buff heroic or make 10 man mythic

[Xires]

The reason why raiding guilds fell apart is 100% the fact they removed 10 man mythic. It killed my guild, it killed countless others, and yes bringing 10 man mythic back would fix it...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. It won't. It will just fuck up mythic like it was when it was heroic in Cata. Overtuned and undertuned bosses. You had a whole YEAR to recruit to become a 20 man guild and the fact that you couldn't do it shows that your guild deserved to die out.

[Magnosh]

@Yggdrasil,

Couple of things here. First, you're making the grossly inaccurate presumption that the only reason fixed Mythic is a good thing is because of class-specific interactions. And while they're a plus, they're hardly the only saving grace. Flex Mythic would require every single mechanic to scale from 10 to 30 which honestly, while not impossible, lends itself to less imaginative raid design. A fight like Gorefiend Mythic would never be able to be done in any capacity on Flex without making the fight an absolute joke for smaller raid groups and an absolute fucking nightmare for larger groups. It's not that the encounters aren't able to be flexed, it's that the Flex mechanic simply isn't the best solution from a design standpoint. You can argue that perhaps we need to let the developers make these kinds of concessions in favor of the "overall happiness of the playerbase," but Mythic raiders never accounted for a substantial portion of the game's subscribers to begin with so why force them to make that portion of the game more bland simply to increase accessibility?

Additionally, you've yet to really address this but even if Mythic was made Flex at some indeterminate point after the original raid is released, how do you differentiate a guild that's 20M strict and one which goes Flex? Even the best guilds occasionally have attendance issues, so should they feel incentive to swap to Flex if a few key players are on vacation while they're farming the instance? What about the possibility that a certain encounter is suddenly much easier at a smaller raid size when you have a large roster? Is it fair for a guild to feel pressure to bench 5-10 people just to get a progression kill? It just opens up the door for so many complications that I don't really think it's worth even considering.

But that's just my personal take on it. I know I'm asking a lot of hypotheticals and I'm not expecting you (or anybody) to be able to answer them, it's just from my pragmatic musings, the cons outweigh the potential benefits. I'm not defending Blizzard's choice to stay with 20M fixed because it's the "lazy" decision, I'm defending it because I think it's the more appropriate direction for endgame raiding.

To be honest they sold it as ''now we can make mechanics awesome because with 20 man it is fair to assume one of every class'' that was their moto, not the ''because it is hard to tune and we cba doing it even tho we are totally payed to do a proper job at doing so''.

As far as I know Blizzard doesn't officially support World first races, so I don't think they care whether one guild would be Flex mythic or 20 mythic. For the player base to know which is what third party websites can do what they always did 10 man and 25 man separated but this time Flex Mythic and 20 Mythic.

Honestly I feel Blizzard is getting lazy and they are going on the less investment and more hype building up. But people are saying so much shit about previous 10 man guilds that I wonder what will happen if more people quite and then by the end of the next expansion the raiding scenario is even worst than now with a even shorter pool to recruit from. When the problems will touch their world we will see if they will change their mind or the ''if your guild died you deserved it'' will remain.

[Ebalina]

Agreed. So many good guilds crumbled because 20 is just impossible to maintain. You can get a core of 10 easily, from real life friends even, and 5 other reliable, solid players, but there's always those 5 slots where you just need warm bodies. And unfortunately those fights where EVERYONE cannot afford to fail.

Truthfully, I used to support larger raid sizes......... until it was actually part of my responsibility to the guild t help maintain them. It's a fucking stressful nightmare.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeeeah cuz only scrubs cannot maintain the roster. That's why the best guilds have broken apart and scattered to the wind. /roll eyes.

Best guilds broken apart?

Who what now?

You do realize paragon broke cause they couldn't find 20-25 quality finnish players.
They are limiting them self's to only finnish players that isn't the case for other top guilds.
They chose that not blizzard.

If you need warmbodys you are running ur guild wrong.

[Osmeric]

Speaking as an elitist hardcore raider I hope the game goes to sub 500k players so that you casual scrubs get the fuck off my game and go play runescape or some shit. Seriously.

Enjoy your two boss raid tiers.

[Relapses]

To be honest they sold it as ''now we can make mechanics awesome because with 20 man it is fair to assume one of every class'' that was their moto, not the ''because it is hard to tune and we cba doing it even tho we are totally payed to do a proper job at doing so''.

The opposition I have to Flex Mythic isn't necessarily that it's harder to tune at face value. It's that certain mechanics are much easier/more difficult when you add/remove players. That's the nature of Flex raiding. When you apply to the hardest difficulty, though, you're basically giving guilds an excuse to find whatever group size is easiest for whichever encounter then have them progress around this. Guilds would bench then regroup for each encounter and I doubt anybody would be happy with this. The common misconception is that guilds that are raiding 20M right now would simply continue raiding at 20M. In reality, there is simply no way for Blizzard to properly tune every encounter in the game to be easiest at a certain fixed raid size while also offering Flex.

As far as I know Blizzard doesn't officially support World first races, so I don't think they care whether one guild would be Flex mythic or 20 mythic. For the player base to know which is what third party websites can do what they always did 10 man and 25 man separated but this time Flex Mythic and 20 Mythic.

They may not officially endorse the WF races but you can bet that it's something which they actively look forward to happening. eSports has recently gained a lot of traction even with mainstream audiences and the WF race in WoW is about as close to eSports as WoW gets. (Arena does gather audiences as well, but it's hardly as buzzworthy as Method vs. Paragon vs. Midwinter vs. Limit and the storylines which unfold therein.) The WF race puts WoW on the tip of the gaming populace's tongue, even if it for a few brief weeks. WoW is still the most popular subscription MMO by a landslide and there is definitely a bit of prestige which comes with being the best of the best.

Honestly I feel Blizzard is getting lazy and they are going on the less investment and more hype building up. But people are saying so much shit about previous 10 man guilds that I wonder what will happen if more people quite and then by the end of the next expansion the raiding scenario is even worst than now with a even shorter pool to recruit from. When the problems will touch their world we will see if they will change their mind or the ''if your guild died you deserved it'' will remain.

I personally dislike the term lazy. There are definitely times where it's evident Blizzard cuts corners but when it comes to raiding this previous expansion has shown they are in no way winding down their production quality. Most currently raiding Mythic raiders would agree that the encounters in WoD were some of the best, most well-tuned and memorable of recent years. Furthermore, contraction of the Mythic playerbase isn't necessarily a bad thing. I personally do not believe accessibility to Mythic raiding would affect player retention at all. Even when 10H was a thing, WoW was still losing subs quarter after quarter.

To be clear, I do not think the current four-difficulty tier system is perfect but I'd prefer Blizzard take a different direction to tackle the redundancy of raid difficulties while still keeping the current Mythic system intact. As I said earlier in the thread, I'd much prefer Normal difficulty to be excised completely and have the difficulty curve in Heroic ramp up significantly as you progress through the instance, with the final boss on Heroic being about as hard as the entry level Mythic encounters.

[kary]

I've raided since release and have cleared almost all content when it was current. I think there are many reasons why there is a decline and none of us work for Blizzard, we do not have factual data to base any real conclusion on why things have changed.

All anyone can do is post their opinion, please do not call anything you are posting a fact.

In my opinion, a solution would be to release more raid content. Simply put, you cannot have raids last as long as Blizzard has been making them last for and there not be issues, regardless of flex or mythic. No one wants to see the same bosses each week for longer than 4-5 months. That is usually the point where people are sick and tired of seeing the same raid zone over and over.

Perhaps they should consider making raids have 4-5 bosses, last 2-3 months and then release a new raid with 4-5 bosses that have the next ilvl in gear and a bit more challenging content.

For example:

Raid 1 - Opens 1 month after release - lasts 3 months) Normal - ilvl 800, Heroic ilvl 815, Mythic ilvl 830
Raid 2 - Opens 3 months after release - lasts 3 months) Normal - ilvl 815, Heroic ilvl 830, Mythic ilvl 845
Raid 3 - Opens 6 months after release - lasts 3 months) Normal - ilvl 830, Heroic ilvl 845, Mythic ilvl 860

Rinse and repeat, over and over, each new raid could have a modifier of say 10% increased difficulty over the previous raid tier for the same difficulty. For example: Normal Raid 1, Heroic Raid 1 and Mythic Raid 1 is the baseline floor in difficulty, Normal Raid 2, Heroic Raid 2 and Mythic Raid 2 are 10% stronger then each of the previous levels.

They could still keep warforged/titanforged as a mechanic through the entire raid cycle.

With each new raid, they could add a batch of quests - say 10 or so, that show the lore to the new raid zone, why the end boss is a big mean demon. That gives non-raids a batch of quests to do to help keep them in content and with each new raid zone/batch of quests give the quest rewards an ilvl boost as well.

As much as I agree with you, you'll get the "RAID RELEASED TOO QUICKLY, THANKS FOR INVALIDATING ALL MY PROGRESS, BLIZZARD. DO YOU NOT CARE ABOUT US CASUALS" almost instantly.
Remember the "BRF WAS RELEASED TOO QUICKLY" debacle? I do. Mid tier guilds would kick up a shitstorm.

Also I kinda do with they returned to hub style raids, share some artwork and focus on the encounters. As much as I love the actual hellfire citadel, a lot of the work done in making the instance pretty could be set a lower priority to allow more content. At least that's how it works in my headcanon. (looking at raids like Hyjal, Dragon Soul and SoO which recycled some world assets)

[Magnosh]

The opposition I have to Flex Mythic isn't necessarily harder to tune at face value. It's that certain mechanics are much easier/more difficult when you add/remove players. That's the nature of Flex raiding. When you apply to the hardest difficulty, though, you're basically giving guilds an excuse to find whatever group size is easiest for whichever encounter then have them progress around this. Guilds would bench then regroup for each encounter and I doubt anybody would be happy with this. The common misconception is that guilds that are raiding 20M right now would simply continue raiding at 20M. In reality, there is simply no way for Blizzard to properly tune every encounter in the game to be easiest at a certain fixed raid size while also offering the ability to flex the raid size.



They may not officially endorse the WF races but you can bet that it's something which they actively look forward to happening. eSports has recently gained a lot of traction even with mainstream audiences and the WF race in WoW is about as close to eSports as WoW gets. (Arena does gather audiences as well, but it's hardly as buzzworthy as Method vs. Paragon vs. Midwinter vs. Limit and the storylines which unfold therein.) The WF race puts WoW on the tip of the gaming populace's tongue, even if it for a few brief weeks. WoW is still the most popular subscription MMO by a landslide and there is definitely a bit of prestige which comes with being the best of the best.



I personally dislike the term lazy. There are definitely times where it's evident Blizzard cuts corners but when it comes to raiding this previous expansion has shown they are in no way winding down their production quality. Most currently raiding Mythic raiders would agree that the encounters in WoD were some of the best, most well-tuned and memorable of recent years. Furthermore, contraction of the Mythic playerbase isn't necessarily a bad thing. I personally do not believe accessibility to Mythic raiding would affect player retention at all. Even when 10H was a thing, WoW was still losing subs quarter after quarter.

To be clear, I do not think the current four-difficulty tier system is perfect but I'd prefer Blizzard take a different direction to tackle the redundancy of raid difficulties while still keeping the current Mythic system intact. As I said earlier in the thread, I'd much prefer Normal difficulty to be excised completely and have the difficulty curve in Heroic ramp up significantly as you progress through the instance, with the final boss on Heroic being about as hard as the entry level Mythic encounters.

I'm not sure either if flex mythic would really solve anything, specially not at this point. I do think that having another fixed raid size would.

You also say that population never dropped so much so fast while 10man Heroic was a valid option.

[kary]

I'm not sure either if flex mythic would really solve anything, specially not at this point. I do think that having another fixed raid size would.

You also say that population never dropped so much so fast while 10man Heroic was a valid option.

But why fixed? Like there's literally no reason for any size other than mythic to be fixed. Hardest competitive content fixed, everything else flex. that's their design moving forward.

[cFortyfive]

I'm not sure either if flex mythic would really solve anything, specially not at this point. I do think that having another fixed raid size would.
You also say that population never dropped so much so fast while 10man Heroic was a valid option.

If we are running with dumb arguments we could as well mention that there also has never been an as fast growth before.

[Magnosh]

If we are running with dumb arguments we could as well mention that there also has never been an as fast growth before.

If we are taking things out of context we might aswell not bother posting to not sound ridicule, right?

My reply was to the: ''Even when 10H was a thing, WoW was still losing subs quarter after quarter.''

EDIT: I ended up doing some digging because I found your post quite funny, and found this information:
- From December 2014 to March 2015 WoW lost 2.9M players (when it nosedived harder) and guess what? this was 1 Month after Mythic BRF was released. Its odd right? the first real raid super tuned super fun suddenly lost all interest in 1 month after the best size best everything was opened.
- The biggest grown you pointed out Started from the end of MoP in September 2014 to December 2014 in WoD, could it be this was all the hype of returning to ''Outland'' and the TBC nostalgia? Or it was because of Mythic HM which was only released in December 9 2014?

- - - Updated - - -

But why fixed? Like there's literally no reason for any size other than mythic to be fixed. Hardest competitive content fixed, everything else flex. that's their design moving forward.

I was saying that in my opinion making mythic flexible or even a new mythic flex + mythic 20 wouldn't solve the issues.

[Relapses]

If we are taking things out of context we might aswell not bother posting to not sound ridicule, right?

My reply was to the: ''Even when 10H was a thing, WoW was still losing subs quarter after quarter.''

EDIT: I ended up doing some digging because I found your post quite funny, and found this information:
- From December 2014 to March 2015 WoW lost 2.9M players (when it nosedived harder) and guess what? this was 1 Month after Mythic BRF was released. Its odd right? the first real raid super tuned super fun suddenly lost all interest in 1 month after the best size best everything was opened.
- The biggest grown you pointed out Started from the end of MoP in September 2014 to December 2014 in WoD, could it be this was all the hype of returning to ''Outland'' and the TBC nostalgia? Or it was because of Mythic HM which was only released in December 9 2014?

...are you actually trying to correlate a 3 million subscriber loss with Mythic raiding which has always been participated by less than 1% of the game's playerbase?

Go ahead and think about that for a bit and get back with us.

I was saying that in my opinion making mythic flexible or even a new mythic flex + mythic 20 wouldn't solve the issues.

...what exactly is your opinion other than "BL1ZZ SUX Y U NO MAEK GUD GAEM NEMORE"?

[Magnosh]

...are you actually trying to correlate a 3 million subscriber loss with Mythic raiding which has always been participated by less than 1% of the game's playerbase?

Go ahead and think about that for a bit and get back with us.



...what exactly is your opinion other than "BL1ZZ SUX Y U NO MAEK GUD GAEM NEMORE"?

Go back a few pages and read my opinion and were I think they can solve most of the issues. Its a no brainer, not sure how you didn't get it....even that should be at your grasp. But hey! You are just spitting stuff out in the air, first you say mythic flex will bring more problems than solutions, I agree with you, and now you say I'm just whining when I agree with you. Can't argue like that sorry.

No I was just pointing out facts. You might like them or not, that is up to you.

[cFortyfive]

out of context
- From December 2014 to March 2015 WoW lost 2.9M players (when it nosedived harder) and guess what? this was 1 Month after Mythic BRF was released. Its odd right? the first real raid super tuned super fun suddenly lost all interest in 1 month after the best size best everything was opened.

Again that makes as much sense as attributing the gain towards the beginning of wod to the format change which is both equally retarded.

[Relapses]

Go back a few pages and read my opinion and were I think they can solve most of the issues. Its a no brainer, not sure how you didn't get it....even that should be at your grasp. But hey! You are just spitting stuff out in the air, first you say mythic flex will bring more problems than solutions, I agree with you, and now you say I'm just whining when I agree with you. Can't argue like that sorry.

No I was just pointing out facts. You might like them or not, that is up to you.

All you've done is offer meaningless anecdotal evidence from your own personal sob story. You failed to achieve any raiding experience this expansion and this is somehow Blizzard's fault. You're projecting your shortcomings onto Blizzard then you're using extremely shitty math to support your argument. You're not "stating facts," you're manipulating information (poorly) to suit a narrative which is best summarized in my last post. We may agree that Flex Mythic isn't the right direction but I don't agree with anything else you've said in this thread as it's exactly the kind of polarizing anti-Blizzard circlejerk I try to distance myself from.

[Magnosh]

All you've done is offer meaningless anecdotal evidence from your own personal sob story. You failed to achieve any raiding experience this expansion and this is somehow Blizzard's fault. You're projecting your shortcomings onto Blizzard then you're using extremely shitty math to support your argument. You're not "stating facts," you're manipulating information (poorly) to suit a narrative which is best summarized in my last post. We may agree that Flex Mythic isn't the right direction but I don't agree with anything else you've said in this thread as it's exactly the kind of polarizing anti-Blizzard circlejerk I try to distance myself from.

So, thinking blizzard should merge more servers to solve the fact that most of EU English speaking servers are dead is being anti-blizzard. I can't fight that logic, guess If i was a kindergarten teacher I could have the patience to explain this to you but I'm not qualified, I'll leave it to someone else.

Manipulating information? WTF. now pointing out dates is manipulating information. Sure. Be sure to polish that armor a bit more.

[Kakera]

Enjoy your two boss raid tiers.

I will. And in between I'll play FFXIV and other games to occupy my time. I don't need content to be released every 2 months to enjoy this game unlike 99% of the mouth breathers on this board. Enjoy 10 man heroics.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

They may not officially endorse the WF races but you can bet that it's something which they actively look forward to happening. eSports has recently gained a lot of traction even with mainstream audiences and the WF race in WoW is about as close to eSports as WoW gets. (Arena does gather audiences as well, but it's hardly as buzzworthy as Method vs. Paragon vs. Midwinter vs. Limit and the storylines which unfold therein.) The WF race puts WoW on the tip of the gaming populace's tongue, even if it for a few brief weeks. WoW is still the most popular subscription MMO by a landslide and there is definitely a bit of prestige which comes with being the best of the best.

Problem is the WF race isn't much of an e-sport. It isn't broadcast. All it really boils down to is a chart of the same 4-5 guilds being in a very similarly arranged list that appears every 6 months to a year. I get more excited watching an excel spreadsheet get filled out. Most of the conversation that swirls around it is filth like EU > NA and shit like that. When the topic of your threads derail into which of the 7 continents is better you know you aren't holding much entertaining value to the product at hand. You hardly know any of the names and faces outside of a few big ones that stream ONLY WHEN THE RACE ISN'T ON of a team of 20. I seriously doubt this fills the gaming populace's tongue for a few brief weeks. Maybe on a site like MMO Champion it can hold some of the regular visitors attention for a brief front page view but I doubt CS:Go fans are a buzz with who won the WoW WF race for a few minutes let alone weeks. I would be surprised if a majority of the gaming populace even knows what the fuck that is. The pretty firm picture is WoW was never designed to be an e-sport and most of the attempts to project anything from it into that scene is mostly a flop that is very niche and not very entertaining. For the main reason being it isn't easy to view and understand what is going on even when you are allowed to see it going down. Which for the WF race you aren't going to see it. So there you have it.. a sport you cannot watch and only hear about after it happens and then not see until a few months after that. Wonder shit.. let me tell ya.