[Megathread] DotA 2

[Bonsaii]

PL vs Terrorblade,


Go.

Terroblade wins. Not even a real contest

[PizzaSHARK]

i guess mushi wasn't the best dota player in the world..

impressive heropool and good drafter though

TI6 has definitely proven that drafting matters more than anything else. The teams have all been relatively even in terms of coordination and skill, and so drafting has largely been what decides who wins and who loses. OG lost because they got out-drafted. Secret has spent the past several months showcasing why bad drafts lose games. MVP got absolutely curbstomped because they drafted poorly. There have certainly been games where one team just simply played better than the other and won (EG v EHOME g1, jesus christ), but in general most games don't reach that point because one team exploits a flaw in the other's draft - the DC knocking out Fnatic with the CK pick is a great example. They had no easy answer to Phantasm and CK generally performs well against Huskar, which left them with a major hole in their draft and only one pick left to try and fill it with.


Incidentally, it also proves just how stupid the average Redditor is. CK is not some magical anti-Huskar button. He does not perform better against Huskar than other heroes who are strong against Huskar do. Huskar's primary weaknesses are pure damage and overwhelming physical burst - CK has the latter with his illusions and the ability to hit with all of them at once via Reality Rift. Sven has perhaps the highest physical burst in the entire game once he has his Buriza. Leoric has a generally good crit and a better stun. PA has evasion that forces Huskar into a fast MKB and the biggest crits in the game. Timbersaw drops Huskar's STR by 15% and does tons of pure damage with Chakram. And so on - there are actually quite a few heroes that generally perform well against Huskar in fights.

The difference is that CK filled all of the positions that DC needed while also exploiting a weakness in Fnatic's lineup. DC had Shadow Demon, Rexxar, Kunkka, and Invoker - quite a lot of control, but very little direct damage. CK gives them this direct damage, while also synergizing with Shadow Demon's recently-made-overpowered Disruption illusions.

It also exploits a flaw in Fnatic's lineup - they have Elder Titan, Faceless Void, Wisp, and Huskar. They have almost no AOE potential (really just Chronosphere into Earth Splitter with an Echo Stomp on top - typical wombo combo stuff) and their support picks are clear... as are their intended core and offlane picks. They want to pick a mid, but what good mids would be available to deal with the CK Phantasm? They need consistent, heavy AOE damage. Timbersaw and PotM are already banned, and Invoker (not really an AOE machine) is already picked. Luna (in case they decide to mid the Huskar) is also banned.

So what're they supposed to do? If they don't pick someone with AOE, they will more or less instantly lose any teamfight as soon as CK pops Phantasm and Reality Rifts someone. Even if Huskar survives the initial burst (and he might, even with Phantasm CK's burst is not exceptional compared to others'), he won't last long with CK and all his clones beating on him, and they have no means of quickly clearing the clones.

OD is actually really great at dealing with CK because of the obscene damage he does to illusions, but they don't have a lineup for protecting that OD. Or did they? I think Wisp combined with TC and the Chronosphere could've made it work, but maybe they felt OD was too risky or didn't consider it at all.

Regardless, it was a fantastic drafting decision by DC and is definitely why they won game 2.

- - - Updated - - -

God Redditors are retarded. Make an argument, support it with facts, and it gets downvoted into oblivion because it's expecting people to engage in a little critical thinking rather than getting in line to blow whoever the most popular pro player of the day is.

[Lysah]

I called fnatic being 2-0'd by DC. You can't forget to look at their bracket. They had by far the easiest journey of any team in the tournament, sure they "never lost a game," but they also only played joke teams. We thought MVP was a good team, but in the end it really does seem like they only know how to play one kind of dota, and everyone else definitely figured that out. They lost two games in a row with an all melee strat, went to the loser's bracket and tried and all melee strat two more games in a row. Ogre didn't work at all in game 1, so they tried Ogre again in game 2! Liquid was their only tough series.

I'm putting all my cards on EG today to beat DC, but I'm pretty unsure honestly. The reason DC has been on fire so far is simply because their drafting has been on point. They haven't had to really outplay anyone because they always have the better lineup. EG is traditionally a great team for drafting, but their drafts have been real questionable at TI. They really only beat EHOME because they were just a better team. I think if and when DC outdrafts them they can easily lose. They might actually SUNSfan their way to the grand finals.

Also, daily reminder that NA dota is bad and NA teams are bad and EU deserved more slots and NA didn't deserve their slots XDXDXDXDXD

I've been saying Wings isn't actually a good team, but if you want to compare them to Fnatic, for example, Wings legitimately haven't lost a game yet. And not "oh WAOW they didn't lose a game against shitty tier 2 teams like escape and alliance!" They didn't lose a game against DC and EG, the other two best teams at the tournament, proven (techies/pudge game was an obvious troll). I have to say, that's pretty scary.

@ above
Ironically Huskar is actually a good counter pick to Timber. I would only pick Timber to stop Huskar if I knew 100% that I could get Timber farm and slow Huskar down, because if Husk gets ahead he wins. I do agree though, a good 90% of the games in the main event have simply come down to drafting. That's what happens in a meta that is more balanced than ever, it becomes harder to use good players to exploit broken heroes and auto-win because no other heroes can stop them. People keep saying Miracle is the best player in the world, but that sure got him far, didn't it? Skill doesn't count for shit when you get outpicked.

[Deleted]

They won game 2 because of W33Ha's Invoker and not because of the CK pick.

The relevant team fight was at 24:30, and W33 did 3500 dmg(Resolution barely did 400) and killed 4 heroes, which got them Rax. Fnatic position wise botched that teamfight anyway(they didn't think DC was going to fight them 3vs5).

Drafting matters, it matters a huge amount, but what matters also is execution. Its not like Wings have the amazing drafts 2016, they just don't draft impossible lineups(Secret) and they avoid mistakes.

Also, daily reminder that NA dota is bad and NA teams are bad and EU deserved more slots and NA didn't deserve their slots XDXDXDXDXD

Doubt anyone though EG/DC didn't deserve a lot at TI6, but there's a massive difference between them and the rest of America. Drinking Boys and Vultur were invited teams in the NA qualifier.

If anything I think TI6 showed that Valve needs to do more qualifiers and less direct invites.

[Lysah]

It's tough to say. I think the exact opposite, TI6 proves Valve needs to do MORE direct invites and fewer qualifiers. It's stupid that coL didn't make it because of some garbage qualifier matches. They would have taken games off the best teams, I'm sure they wouldn't have made it past a round or two of the lower bracket, but neither did OG or Alliance, two teams that "deserved" to be here apparently.

[Longview]

i agree coL deserved an invite over alliance, but i don't think ti6 proves they need more direct invites as neither team in the top 4 were direct invites

eu scene wasn't that good this season but historically i'd argue it makes sense for more slots from eu
in ti1 top 8: 3 eu 0 na (+nirvana.int which was half na half eu)
in ti2 top 8: 1 eu 0 na
in ti3 top 8: 3 eu 1 na
in ti4 top 8: 1 eu 1 na (+c9 which was 3 eu 2 na)
in ti5 top 8: 1 eu 1 na (+secret which was 4 eu and 1 na)

ti6 top 8: 0 eu 2 na (+dc which is 4 eu and 1 na)

i wouldn't mind seeing no direct invites and only qualifiers next year to be honest. as it stands right now i don't think eu deserves more invites than na, but neither region has more than 2-3 good teams so it doesn't really matter.

[Deleted]

They won game 2 because of W33Ha's Invoker and not because of the CK pick.

There were 2 outcomes after the CK pick. Either they pick a CK counter like Zeus, who falls of in late game (in terms of killing the Illusions), in which case CK would have won the game in the late game without issue.
Or they pick a late game counter to the CK, aka Ember, which resulted in them having a weak early and mid game, in which Invoker walked all over them. + that cheap Shadow Demon Illusion siege in the midgame, before Ember can kill them quickly.

It really was one of the games that was 100% won by draft.

[Lysah]

i wouldn't mind seeing no direct invites and only qualifiers next year to be honest. as it stands right now i don't think eu deserves more invites than na, but neither region has more than 2-3 good teams so it doesn't really matter.

The problem with this is that you risk your best teams getting knocked out before they even play "public" games. What happened to coL could easily happen to EG, OG, Wings, etc. The qualifiers seemed pretty easy for the top teams but it only takes having one bad game in the BO1s and you're just...out. Pretty risky to bet the quality of your 100 million dollar tournament on that.

What they should do is actually communicate what constitutes a direct invite so teams know what to expect.

[Longview]

The problem with this is that you risk your best teams getting knocked out before they even play "public" games. What happened to coL could easily happen to EG, OG, Wings, etc. The qualifiers seemed pretty easy for the top teams but it only takes having one bad game in the BO1s and you're just...out. Pretty risky to bet the quality of your 100 million dollar tournament on that.

What they should do is actually communicate what constitutes a direct invite so teams know what to expect.

that's a good point. i think winning a major should be a given direct invite. i agree that more transparency would be a good thing (maybe even have some sort of weighted rating system like gosugamers), but i mean.. we're talking about valve here.

[RobertoCarlos]

dat EG vs DC final holy shit


How could secret have kicked w33. Thats like not wanting lebron james in your basketball team

[Fenzha]

That was such a great game.

[Lysah]

that's a good point. i think winning a major should be a given direct invite. i agree that more transparency would be a good thing (maybe even have some sort of weighted rating system like gosugamers), but i mean.. we're talking about valve here.

Yeah, I think they'd have to develop some sort of rating system, which would also encourage teams to actually play tournaments between majors and might help develop the esports scene more. Other sports more or less work like this, such as Tennis, and it's fine. Obviously it would take Valve more than zero effort but they seem pretty serious about making Dota2 the esport of esports so maybe they'll be willing.

Also as an EG fan I am definitely crying right now. Getting into their third base race of the tournament and losing for the third time...soul crushing to watch. I also really would not mind Slark being deleted from the game, that hero is way too hard to kill for how much damage he can dish out. He was killing a Tide in the duration of pounce, that's just absurd.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I am sooooo happy Jugg won the Arcana vote. Fuck reddit and fuck their stupid "memes." Throw away one of two arcanas valve might do per year FOR THE LULZ on a hero literally nobody plays - not even the pros because it's always banned against teams that can use it.


People complaining that Jugg is the most decorated hero in the game can cry about it while they examine all their votes for Io against heroes like WK and PL, and their voting against heroes Jugg beat like Rubick NS.

I hope Valve really did rig the vote to make sure Jugg won, they would be stupid to let a hero nobody plays win, there's no way an Io arcana would make them any money.

[Mellomania]

Glad jugg won the arcana vote as well.

And if DC wins now Slacks gets his name on the aegis lol xD

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

TB illusions are pretty fucking OP for sieging bases, but I guess that's kind of a major element of the hero. Nerfing his illusions would probably send him right back to the dumpster.

Simply making illusions take more damage would solve that pretty quickly, other than buffing towers overall there's not much more that one can do.

[Spryte]

Honestly pretty happy to see EG lose but I feel like they had a better chance at beating Wings than DC but you never know. Hope the finals are entertaining, also RIP wisp arcana.

[StrawberryZebra]

I hope Valve really did rig the vote to make sure Jugg won, they would be stupid to let a hero nobody plays win, there's no way an Io arcana would make them any money.

Makes two of us - Jugg has some space for them to do some really awesome work with, without drastically altering his sillouete at all. Unlike other heroes, looking at you PA, he doesn't have a drab colour palete to work with either so lots of room to add some colour to him in the process. Lots of ways to make it awesome without messing up his core theme of being a sword wielding badass, the fact that he's actually a hero that sees play is just icing on the cake.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

i agree coL deserved an invite over alliance, but i don't think ti6 proves they need more direct invites as neither team in the top 4 were direct invites

eu scene wasn't that good this season but historically i'd argue it makes sense for more slots from eu
in ti1 top 8: 3 eu 0 na (+nirvana.int which was half na half eu)
in ti2 top 8: 1 eu 0 na
in ti3 top 8: 3 eu 1 na
in ti4 top 8: 1 eu 1 na (+c9 which was 3 eu 2 na)
in ti5 top 8: 1 eu 1 na (+secret which was 4 eu and 1 na)

ti6 top 8: 0 eu 2 na (+dc which is 4 eu and 1 na)

i wouldn't mind seeing no direct invites and only qualifiers next year to be honest. as it stands right now i don't think eu deserves more invites than na, but neither region has more than 2-3 good teams so it doesn't really matter.

I don't understand the region bash...
DC is an american based organization but only 1 out of their 5 mains is from USA the rest is European, captain is Danish.
EG is an american based organization but 2 out of their 5 mains is not from USA.

it's the same thing with Asian teams and European teams, it's got nothing to do with nationality unless an entire team is the same nationality. The only major team that fits that bill atm is Alliance I think, regardless it's silly to take national pride into DotA... praise the players and their teams/organizations for their work and quality entertainment.

[Spryte]

The problem with this is that you risk your best teams getting knocked out before they even play "public" games. What happened to coL could easily happen to EG, OG, Wings, etc. The qualifiers seemed pretty easy for the top teams but it only takes having one bad game in the BO1s and you're just...out. Pretty risky to bet the quality of your 100 million dollar tournament on that.

What they should do is actually communicate what constitutes a direct invite so teams know what to expect.

Please do correct me if im wrong as I may well be, but it was my understanding the teams like EG and Secret changed their roster past Valve's cutoff date for roster finalisation for TI, so thats why they had to go through the qualifiers? I mean it would be a bit unfair if a team could get invited under one roster then suddenly change up their players right before the play starts.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Makes two of us - Jugg has some space for them to do some really awesome work with, without drastically altering his sillouete at all. Unlike other heroes, looking at you PA, he doesn't have a drab colour palete to work with either so lots of room to add some colour to him in the process. Lots of ways to make it awesome without messing up his core theme of being a sword wielding badass, the fact that he's actually a hero that sees play is just icing on the cake.

Io isn't played because he's very hit and miss and requires a good partner to go on global ganks and such with, in the pro scene he gets banned out a lot (or heroes he can combo with gets banned out).
Jugg only gets played in pubstomping because he's hard to contest without coordination, which is true for a lot of heroes, I wanted IO from the start as I play him (and other supports) exclusively. It's not like they can make regular armor items for Io so an Arcana would be perfect, make his model more spectacular, his balls more exciting and just in general make him more flashy. Jugg is already one of the heroes with the most cosmetic options, Io has none... NONE.

[Lysah]

Please do correct me if im wrong as I may well be, but it was my understanding the teams like EG and Secret changed their roster past Valve's cutoff date for roster finalisation for TI, so thats why they had to go through the qualifiers? I mean it would be a bit unfair if a team could get invited under one roster then suddenly change up their players right before the play starts.

EG and Secret yeah

Io isn't played because he's very hit and miss and requires a good partner to go on global ganks and such with, in the pro scene he gets banned out a lot (or heroes he can combo with gets banned out).
Jugg only gets played in pubstomping because he's hard to contest without coordination, which is true for a lot of heroes, I wanted IO from the start as I play him (and other supports) exclusively. It's not like they can make regular armor items for Io so an Arcana would be perfect, make his model more spectacular, his balls more exciting and just in general make him more flashy. Jugg is already one of the heroes with the most cosmetic options, Io has none... NONE.

I mean....that sucks for you, but this is a thing
http://imgur.com/ccmP5ri
It's not a hero more than 1-2% of players ever want to play, the only reason he made it this far is because reddit thought it was funny to give the win to a hero nobody wants. Same reason Void ends up winning the remodel when other heroes actually needed it and Void looked fine. The arcana shouldn't just automatically go to whoever has the fewest cosmetics, it should go to heroes that are actually, you know, played, at all. Both in the interest of Valve making money and in the interest of players having an Arcana they give a shit about.