[FROST] Legion Beta Megathread

[Sturmcantor]

About the only thing that BiS lists are at all relevant for now is trinket comparisons, since there is so much variation in drop ilvl now.

[krosber04]

Mage

Brain Freeze now gives your Frostbolt a 15% chance to empower your next Flurry (was 10%).

[gallamann]

Mage

Brain Freeze now gives your Frostbolt a 15% chance to empower your next Flurry (was 10%).

Well that is a tiny improvement to damage. On the flip side we will hopefully see it proc a little more often.

[Reachie10]

Gallamann and Frost1129,

I've been reading the last couple pages of this thread today, and I appreciate all of your comments - extremely helpful, thank you. I've been playing frost since 7.0 hit and I really do like it, it doesn't seem to be anywhere close to fire right now in terms of damage, but the play-style to me is much more rewarding and fun than fire.

My observation so far is that the most important 10 seconds in any fight is when you use time warp (and MUST have icy veins off CD) and use Ray Of Frost, is this observation true?. In my very limited testing, in a 5-6 minute fight, Ray of Frost is my #1 damage spell significantly which is perplexing to me considering the amount of frost bolts and glacial spikes we end up casting in the time between RoF. If this is indeed true, my fear is if something happens where your don't get IV + TW together, or something happens where your RoF is canceled or interrupted, I feel like your overall DPS for the fight will plummet?

Also, do we have more testing on Glacial Spike? Is it worth casting, or is just casting more frost-bolts (and more icicles) better?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Way to many commas.

[gallamann]

My observation so far is that the most important 10 seconds in any fight is when you use time warp (and MUST have icy veins off CD) and use Ray Of Frost, is this observation true?. In my very limited testing, in a 5-6 minute fight, Ray of Frost is my #1 damage spell significantly which is perplexing to me considering the amount of frost bolts and glacial spikes we end up casting in the time between RoF. If this is indeed true, my fear is if something happens where your don't get IV + TW together, or something happens where your RoF is canceled or interrupted, I feel like your overall DPS for the fight will plummet?

Also, do we have more testing on Glacial Spike? Is it worth casting, or is just casting more frost-bolts (and more icicles) better?

You are right about Ray, haste adds ticks, under both time warp and IV it adds a lot of ticks and those ticks are all at max damage. Hope you are popping RoP right before that Ray! Also right about it being interrupted, kills your damage. While you are leveling, don't forget to take a guardian with you, I forget her name (the one that doesn't turn into a dragon as ability), she does cast a freeze which is very nice. So while out leveling, cast Ray, wait till last third and use pet freeze to get a couple ticks to shatter, and most times the guardian will follow up your pet freeze with a freeze.

The other nice one while leveling is GS, cast that and go right into IL spam, you should get 3 to shatter, sometimes 4. You can also use pet freeze here to shatter your GS cast.

Problem is all that "freeze" play disappears when facing a boss (they be immune). The biggest loss is via GS in that you can't plow in 3 IL's and have them all shatter. On my 777 ilevel mage in Beta, that is between 330k and 440k damage gone, not entirely because you will cast other stuff but illustrates the difference.

There should not currently be an instance where casting frost bolts over GS is a DPS gain (who knows what future holds, in particular via set bonuses).

Reason so many of us who love Frost are going Fire (barring buffs to Frost) is that currently Fire is >20% ahead of Frost on Single Target and there is no comparison for AoE (Fire just owns Frost here). So if you plan on doing any Mythic+ dungeons or Heroic+ raiding, you are just gimping yourself for no valid reason currently.

Personally I don't think we will see any tuning passes (outside of blatant OP like the recent PvP nerf to GS) until we are 2-3 weeks into the first raid tier. Unfortunately that SUCKS because of artifacts, sure 13-14 is easy spend on two but you hit > 20 it's no easy task to start anew with an artifact. Mayhap Blizzard will be nice and let us (for free) move everything from one artifact to another, one time to compensate but I seriously doubt that.

For me, that means play Fire until its artifact is maxed and then fill in Frost. So figure 6+ months before Frost Artifact mirrors Fire artifact and that is assuming I can easily get 3 relics that equal ilevel of fire relics.

As an aside, prior two expansions (maybe more) Frost was know as the "fast paced" spec. Fire has become that now. Fire isn't terribly complicated, Fireball into a Heating Up, Fire Blast and then if ST use Pyro, otherwise if AoE use Flamestrike. Combust you just abuse the piss out of either Pyro or Flamestrike. It is fun as shit during invasions when the opposing faction is piled on a boss, combust and dump 5+ flamestrikes on them, madly giggle Oh and be ready to die, tends to excite them!

[Reachie10]

Problem is all that "freeze" play disappears when facing a boss (they be immune). The biggest loss is via GS in that you can't plow in 3 IL's and have them all shatter. On my 777 ilevel mage in Beta, that is between 330k and 440k damage gone, not entirely because you will cast other stuff but illustrates the difference.

Do you think if they made a change to bosses and enabled shatter to work correctly on them, that it would make frost viable??

Reason so many of us who love Frost are going Fire (barring buffs to Frost) is that currently Fire is >20% ahead of Frost on Single Target and there is no comparison for AoE (Fire just owns Frost here). So if you plan on doing any Mythic+ dungeons or Heroic+ raiding, you are just gimping yourself for no valid reason currently.

For someone who casually plays like I do (2-3 nights a week) - I'm afraid if I pick the fire artifact, and then either A: They nerf it, or B: they buff Frost i'll be stuck playing Fire rather then Frost.

But you do make a good point, hopefully we can re-choose out artifact on the first big patch, and go from there.

[Lightning-]

Is frost that bad right now?

My guildmates asked if I could roll my mage instead of my ele Shaman, and I'm ok with that but only if I can play frost because it's the only spec I actually enjoy. I hate fire and arcane. But I see no point in switching if frost is that bad.

[Cracked]

Is frost that bad right now?

My guildmates asked if I could roll my mage instead of my ele Shaman, and I'm ok with that but only if I can play frost because it's the only spec I actually enjoy. I hate fire and arcane. But I see no point in switching if frost is that bad.

If tuning stays as it is, you either play fire or are kinda worthless.

[Krazzorx]

I'd say it's a relative thing in this way: is Frost Mage better than Ele Shaman? Let's say Frost Mage gets tuned to be within 5% of Fire Mage. I'd say it's a very good chance in overall dps Frost overtakes Ele shaman. Albeit they have different utilities.

[Torian kel]

I'd say it's a relative thing in this way: is Frost Mage better than Ele Shaman? Let's say Frost Mage gets tuned to be within 5% of Fire Mage. I'd say it's a very good chance in overall dps Frost overtakes Ele shaman. Albeit they have different utilities.

Even if it's within 5% of fire mage, then why would you pick frost? That's voluntarily gimping your raid of 5% dps, notwithstanding the other things fire offer (like easy aoe) that frost does not.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

I'd say it's a relative thing in this way: is Frost Mage better than Ele Shaman?

Yes. But hotfixes will come in the first weeks of Legion, so who knows if that will remain an accurate statement.

[Krazzorx]

Even if it's within 5% of fire mage, then why would you pick frost? That's voluntarily gimping your raid of 5% dps, notwithstanding the other things fire offer (like easy aoe) that frost does not.

While that's true in an absolute sense, prior to the xpac launching, that's equally true as well for class choice itself. Yet most wind up taking what's most fun to them even if there are many warning signs that it would be better to go a different class. (Eg, Feral Druids vs rogue. Or even most hybrids vs pures for that matter due to extreme risk like WW monk post Highmaul)

(Also, while fire isn't bad at it, there is something to be said for Frost's strength on swapping to high priority targets)

Tl;dr, people "gimp" themselves with class choice all the time. So I think if specs are close, especially with artifacts (yes ik maintaining 2 isn't much of a nerf, but still pretty easy to justify going full on 1), it's not that hard to justify playing the 5% lower.

Remember as well, question is Ele vs Frost Mage. I would say there's a very high chance even Frost Mage would be preferred.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes. But hotfixes will come in the first weeks of Legion, so who knows if that will remain an accurate statement.

1. History. Ele has always been.... unreliable in being tuned high. 2. Binkenstein's analysis of Ele's tuning issues would also lean towards it being probably an average dps spec. Albeit having some useful niches IMO.

[Tyze]

Is frost that bad right now?

My guildmates asked if I could roll my mage instead of my ele Shaman, and I'm ok with that but only if I can play frost because it's the only spec I actually enjoy. I hate fire and arcane. But I see no point in switching if frost is that bad.

I have mained Elemental for some time, I've decided on the Mage. Why? Well, first of all I enjoy all specs, and I think that's pretty crucial if you're gonna main a Mage because well known is that one spec will be superior and this could change any time.

But the thing with likes of Elemental and Boomkins for example, is that you're stuck on that class, and Mages will be a safer bet (They have everything to be honest) meanwhile Elemental has problem on movement and such.

Fire is right now superior choice, but as known Legion hasn't released yet and tuning will happen first tier. To be honest if you really dislike both Arcane and Fire I think you'll struggle, well maybe not you but possibly your group?

But! You can be certain that Frost still will be viable (most likely) but it will happen that one of the other specs will be slightly better, meanwhile if you struggle on Elemental, well you are stuck :P

[Krazzorx]

Less theoretical stuff: anyone have an optimal artifact path for PvE for frost?

[Deleted]

Word on the street is that frost is much better than theorycrafters thought at first after some fixes done on simcraft last week, but the details escape me.

[Cracked]

Word on the street is that frost is much better than theorycrafters thought at first after some fixes done on simcraft last week, but the details escape me.

Word on the street may be whatever it wants, I have played frost in raid tests and done extensive dummy testings myself. Sure, you don't have to take my word for it, go test it youself. But I was consistently fighting for the last place on the dps meter (single target).

That was with full artifact as well, tried both obvious rotations (highly haste buffed ray of frost with rune each minute while weaving lances with high chain reaction into frost bomb or the long IV uptime though Thermal Void with frost bomb).

As for Glacial Spike vs Comet Storm, my guess it depends on how much haste you can have. But with so many procs coming in with ful artifact I found myself casting frostbolt really not that often, so Comet Storm was very close, depending on how you use it.

[Ifritlol]

Why is frost bomb so obvious? And how did can you test full artifact HASTED RoF outside of PvP server where secondary stats are fucked up on gear?

[Krazzorx]

Comet storm I imagine is better on fights like Tichondrius for burst aoe.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Word on the street may be whatever it wants, I have played frost in raid tests and done extensive dummy testings myself. Sure, you don't have to take my word for it, go test it youself. But I was consistently fighting for the last place on the dps meter (single target)

hey there, don't argue with the word on the street now

[LordAmbrosia]

tried both obvious rotations (highly haste buffed ray of frost with rune each minute while weaving lances with high chain reaction into frost bomb or the long IV uptime though Thermal Void with frost bomb)

Im a bit confused on what Frost Bomb has to do with either of these rotations. Does it give you multiple TV stacks in AOE situations? Not sure why you specifically brought it up twice. And I don't know what "high chain reaction" means either.