What's up with Jainas attitude towards the horde all of the sudden?(Invasion Spoiler)

[Littlepwny]

I see we are not one of those people who watches both sides of the scenario?

1 side is enough to make a judgement!
Carry on.

Though his response is biased, watching one side of the cinematic is EXACTLY what needs to be done to judge Jaina's stance. Jaina can only "watch" the Alliance side of the cinematic.

[Deleted]

Yes, but shouldn't she have realized we're not the same Horde? We literally killed our own leader...

So nice, instead of the leader responsible for Theramore, you have the one who did Southshore, Gilneas and Ambermill, and used plague bombs in Western Plaguelands just as the Cenarion Circle and Argent Crusade were struggling to fix them.

I imagine every citizen of the Alliance feels much safer already with the Lich Queen finally in charge of the world's second largest fighting force.

Garrosh makes such a convenient scapegoat, but the truth is that the Horde is very, very consistently bad neighbors, ready and eager to sucker punch you the moment they feel stronger. Proven time and time again, both in Azeroth and Draenor. Things were more chill with Thrall and Vol'jin in charge, but they're an exception more than the rule.

[Vynny]

that's ridiculous

U are ok, when Alliance leader helps save back Horde Capital. and u are against when former alliance leader helps Alliance secure thing of destruction from powermonger nonhonorable neohitler for greater good?
dat logic, mon

Theramore is Ally of Alliance. when horde breaks truce and attacks Ashenvale, you go and help you r allies.
not backstab them like Garrosh did To VolJin and lots of others
why did Alliance attack Barrens?
to cut short road to Ashenvale and stonetalon?
why? to get troops there faster
why? because Garrosh attacked AShenvale several times

and you still cant see difference between starting war and answering enemy attack

I am okay with the Alliance helping to take back Orgrimmar because it was aligned with the interests of the majority of the Horde. Garrosh, nor any other Horde leader knew if Varian wanted to use the Divine Bell against the Horde or not. In fact, Varian very well might have if Anduin hadn't have convinced him not to. On top of that, the Kirin Tor helping the majority of the Horde with a coup and the Alliance to stop Garrosh would not have been seen as a breach of neutrality because that was still helping the Horde. Securing a WMD for the Alliance from the Horde only helps the Alliance.

Secondly, yes, Theramore was caught between a rock and a hard place so to speak. They were allied with the Alliance, but still had a truce with the Horde. They could've have refused the Alliance in order to preserve their truce, and that would've put strain on their alliance with the Alliance, but in the end they chose to break the truce that Theramore had with the Horde. The Horde attacking Ashenvale had nothing to do with the truce because the truce was only between Theramore and the Horde. I don't know how to put this to you any simpler than that. The only reason Theramore had a truce was because of the help Jaina gave the Horde in WC3. This was not a truce between the Alliance and the Horde, it was a truce between Jaina's city of Theramore and the Horde thus Ashenvale had nothing to do with the truce. The Horde could attack any Alliance land except for Theramore and not break the truce because the truce was completely and only between Theramore and the Horde. Do you get it yet? I've tried stressing this one detail that you're not getting so much because it's an important distinction to make. The truce was only between Theramore and the Horde. That's it. So the Horde attacking Ashenvale did not break the truce, but Theramore helping the Alliance invade Horde lands did. It's as simple as that because the truce was between Theramore and the Horde.

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Can she really be a Dreadlord though? Can Dreadlords use frost and arcane magic like we've seen her use in the invasion?

A Dreadlord did disguise himself as a leader of the Scarlet Crusade, so if he can fool a bunch of Paladins into thinking that he wasn't a demon then I'm sure that a Dreadlord could fool us into thinking that he's Jaina through and through. As far as timelines go if she is actually a Dreadlord, I'd imagine that Jaina actually died in the mana bomb incident and the Dreadlord took her place then.

[dopefishz]

so much for lok'tar ogar lol

this comment PLUS your avatar just made me burst out in laughter. thanks !

[Heladys]

Jaina's 100% right. Every horde must be eliminated.

[Guntank17]

<Metzen> "Ok, Jaina is acting really dumb...but it’s my story. Jaina is my least fave character and I make her how I want her to be dumb cuz she is. Sorry for the inconvenience and fuck you."

That pretty much sums up Jaina of late and in blatant disregard of any positive development she actually had in War Crimes.

(Also look here under Ron Weasley/THE TOUR GUIDES HATE ME, but substitute Ron = Jaina, Voldemort = Sargeras/The Old Gods/Azshara, Harry = Thrall/Anduin/Velen/Khadgar/every other protagonist, Draco = Sylvanas, and Hermione = Kalec.)

[MatadorMedia]

The bombing of Theramore definitely changed Jaina. She took an army of water elementals to drown Orgrimmar in retalliation, but Kalecgos convinced her to stop. Her holdover right now is based around the Sunreavers (blood elf faction) in Dalaran being the spies that betrayed her and helped Garrosh get/use the mana bomb. She had the players purge Dalaran of all the blood elves. And since she is in command of Dalaran she's not keen on letting them back into the city for obvious reasons. The council votes them back in and so she quits and leaves Khadgar in command of Dal. I'm looking forward to seeing where Jaina's arc is headed.

[Purpleisbetter]

They were archers. Ranged attacks would have been sufficient. Covering fire and all that.

Is it too hard to understand the horde simply lost their battle?

[Grythletubs]

Wow shocker, more alliance and Jaina hate.

Anyways,

I was okay with how both factions handled it, but Sylvannas could have said "btw were being overrun, were leaving now" to Varian so he could be like "K let's leave too" instead of abandoning the alliance without explanation, that just seemed pretty incompetent of her.

This whole thing is just to fuel pvp. I wish Blizzard would just stop throwing petty reasons for alliance and horde to fight, should have died with Garrosh tbh.

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The bombing of Theramore definitely changed Jaina. She took an army of water elementals to drown Orgrimmar in retalliation, but Kalecgos convinced her to stop. Her holdover right now is based around the Sunreavers (blood elf faction) in Dalaran being the spies that betrayed her and helped Garrosh get/use the mana bomb. She had the players purge Dalaran of all the blood elves. And since she is in command of Dalaran she's not keen on letting them back into the city for obvious reasons. The council votes them back in and so she quits and leaves Khadgar in command of Dal. I'm looking forward to seeing where Jaina's arc is headed.

I want to see an epic battle between her and Azshara.

[anaxie]

I am okay with the Alliance helping to take back Orgrimmar because it was aligned with the interests of the majority of the Horde. Garrosh, nor any other Horde leader knew if Varian wanted to use the Divine Bell against the Horde or not. In fact, Varian very well might have if Anduin hadn't have convinced him not to. On top of that, the Kirin Tor helping the majority of the Horde with a coup and the Alliance to stop Garrosh would not have been seen as a breach of neutrality because that was still helping the Horde. Securing a WMD for the Alliance from the Horde only helps the Alliance.

Secondly, yes, Theramore was caught between a rock and a hard place so to speak. They were allied with the Alliance, but still had a truce with the Horde. They could've have refused the Alliance in order to preserve their truce, and that would've put strain on their alliance with the Alliance, but in the end they chose to break the truce that Theramore had with the Horde. The Horde attacking Ashenvale had nothing to do with the truce because the truce was only between Theramore and the Horde. I don't know how to put this to you any simpler than that. The only reason Theramore had a truce was because of the help Jaina gave the Horde in WC3. This was not a truce between the Alliance and the Horde, it was a truce between Jaina's city of Theramore and the Horde thus Ashenvale had nothing to do with the truce. The Horde could attack any Alliance land except for Theramore and not break the truce because the truce was completely and only between Theramore and the Horde. Do you get it yet? I've tried stressing this one detail that you're not getting so much because it's an important distinction to make. The truce was only between Theramore and the Horde. That's it. So the Horde attacking Ashenvale did not break the truce, but Theramore helping the Alliance invade Horde lands did. It's as simple as that because the truce was between Theramore and the Horde.

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A Dreadlord did disguise himself as a leader of the Scarlet Crusade, so if he can fool a bunch of Paladins into thinking that he wasn't a demon then I'm sure that a Dreadlord could fool us into thinking that he's Jaina through and through. As far as timelines go if she is actually a Dreadlord, I'd imagine that Jaina actually died in the mana bomb incident and the Dreadlord took her place then.

It MIGHT be probable. Considering Mathias Shaw the leader of SI:7 was replaced with a Dreadlord to fan the flames between Horde and Alliance.

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Wow shocker, more alliance and Jaina hate.

Anyways,

I was okay with how both factions handled it, but Sylvannas could have said "btw were being overrun, were leaving now" to Varian so he could be like "K let's leave too" instead of abandoning the alliance without explanation, that just seemed pretty incompetent of her.

This whole thing is just to fuel pvp. I wish Blizzard would just stop throwing petty reasons for alliance and horde to fight, should have died with Garrosh tbh.

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I want to see an epic battle between her and Azshara.

She literally Got Vol'jin

Sounded the horn

And took of to the ship

Shes not going to ride up and be like yo Varina move out.



When the Horde Sounded the Horn THAT is the allainces warning

They sounded a fucking retreat so retreat.

OH Varian had to say it's ok? Keep up the Allaince Motto.


For the Allian.....KABOOM

Also Horde get a two part Broken shore cinematic. We know why.



If you watch both cinematics

Alliance Side; OH THIS IS TOTALLY GOING GOOD

Horde Side: Warchief just got impaled and the backbone of the Horde is being crushed.

Allaince Side: Oh WTF horde leaving.


It's funny the Allaince cinematic is fucking retarded. LIKE really bad. You don't see shit thats going on just Genn Talking and giving you a thumbs up. HEY WE ARE KICKING THOSE DEMONS ASS!. Oh just kidding.... i didn't see the uhh... ermmm.. three feet infront of my face.

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Can we all agree the Broken Shore has gotta be one of the worst military plans ever devised?

"Lets go in with all of our biggest guns, with almost zero intel, sending our most zelous troops in first, then our single strongest warriors, followed by most of our political leaders with a group of famous heroes. Let's not first check in with the topography, or the natives, lets not do any of that. Thrust the spear and be done!"

::Broken Shore occurs::

"WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL US THERE COULD BE MORE THAN ONE LEGION PORTAL!?!"

hahahahahahah

[Tenjen]

I actually have. And it was still a cowardice retreat. You don't leave your allies to save your own ass. That's the very definition of being a coward.

Sylvanas sounded a huge horn for the retreat, which the Alliance heard, they had the same amount of time to retreat.

If she hadn't sounded the retreat, the massive armies pouring out (that were even bigger than the one's they had just fought) would have eventually killed them and the Alliance would have had no warning at all, they would have been stomped over on two sides. The war against the Legion would have been lost right there with a great deal of the major leaders and faction champions (including us) dead. Varian and Mr Gilnian of January were kidding themselves that horde support would have helped them push to Guldan.

If you had listened, you would have known the legion had setup camp incredibly quickly and hundreds of demons were pouring out of the portals in a single moment. The horde literally had multiple spaceships firing down on them.

The moment Guldan summoned a dozen legion leaders like Jarraxus and frikkin Tichiondrius, the battle was already lost. The entire thing was an ambush, first the Argent Crusade fell for it, then we did and the only reason we made it out was because Sylvanas had the sense to realize the cause was lose.

[anaxie]

Sylvanas sounded a huge horn for the retreat, which the Alliance heard, they had the same amount of time to retreat.

If she hadn't sounded the retreat, the massive armies pouring out (that were even bigger than the one's they had just fought) would have eventually killed them and the Alliance would have had no warning at all, they would have been stomped over on two sides. The war against the Legion would have been lost right there with a great deal of the major leaders and faction champions (including us) dead. Varian and Mr Gilnian of January were kidding themselves that horde support would have helped them push to Guldan.

If you had listened, you would have known the legion had setup camp incredibly quickly and hundreds of demons were pouring out of the portals in a single moment. The horde literally had multiple spaceships firing down on them.

The moment Guldan summoned a dozen legion leaders like Jarraxus and frikkin Tichiondrius, the battle was already lost. The entire thing was an ambush, first the Argent Crusade fell for it, then we did and the only reason we made it out was because Sylvanas had the sense to realize the cause was lose.

of course it was an ambush.

It's already confirmed Mathias Shaw was replaced by Detheroc.
So much for Alliance Intel. cost the lives and the leader or organizations and nations.

[Tenjen]

Well the alliance was winning (or at the very least going even) against the main army while the horde was being demolished by a flanking party of random demons.
From the alliance PoV they did backstack em as well so Jaina being pissed is understandable, but once again 'the greater threat' takes a higher priority.
Atleast horde traded up in leaders, we went from bad to worse..

Its the other way around. The horde was fighting the main army (to buy the Alliance time to kill Guldan and enter the building), demons charging out of portals (hundreds at a time) in the background and even had to deal with multiple legion space ships firing down on them. Sylvanas saw an even LARGER army pouring out before she calls the retreat. While the alliance were fighting the much fewer (but still sizeable) demons stationed around Guldan with him summoning more to keep them delayed until he could summon a shit load of them and a dozen major legion leaders (who we did not engage).

During the horde side, they bear witness to the fact that the legion is in FAR FAR larger numbers and has fully setup their base of operations beyond anything the azeroth factions were aware of or had been informed of. They had been expecting the beginnings of an invasion force, not an infinite army with an established foothold.

Until that point, the alliance fought a paltry amount compared to the Horde, who bore the brunt of the Legions numbers.

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of course it was an ambush.

It's already confirmed Mathias Shaw was replaced by Detheroc.
So much for Alliance Intel. cost the lives and the leader or organizations and nations.

holy hell, that explains a lot. I cant even begin to imagine what else we'll lose before we take him out.

[anaxie]

Its the other way around. The horde was fighting the main army (to buy the Alliance time to kill Guldan and enter the building), demons charging out of portals (hundreds at a time) in the background and even had to deal with multiple legion space ships firing down on them. Sylvanas saw an even LARGER army pouring out before she calls the retreat. While the alliance were fighting the much fewer (but still sizeable) demons stationed around Guldan with him summoning more to keep them delayed until he could summon a shit load of them and a dozen major legion leaders (who we did not engage).

During the horde side, they bear witness to the fact that the legion is in FAR FAR larger numbers and has fully setup their base of operations beyond anything the azeroth factions were aware of or had been informed of. They had been expecting the beginnings of an invasion force, not an infinite army with an established foothold.

Until that point, the alliance fought a paltry amount compared to the Horde, who bore the brunt of the Legions numbers.

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holy hell, that explains a lot. I cant even begin to imagine what else we'll lose before we take him out.

Rogues take him out.

It's the plot twist of their questline.

[Gadzooks]

Or, as example of this event, people like her and Genn look for ANY EXCUSE to blame the horde for their woes, even when what the horde are doing is trying to survive.

Its not the horde that fucks up, because if they were 'monsters', no other neutral faction would want to be associated with the horde, despite them working with them.

Yeah, no, the Horde invasion of Gilneas is not "just trying to survive", it's an invasion of aggression pure and simple, and Genn has every reason to hate the Horde for that reason, especially as far as we know, the Alliance is still skirmishing with the Horde on the borders of that nation state. To say Genn is "unfair" in hating the Horde is hilariously flawed, and just shows your blatant disregard for the story, and are making up your own.

And then to say they must be good because neutral factions associate with them, that's entirely a game mechanic.

It's fine to be on the Horde's side, but don't just make shit like this up.

[Deleted]

He was right, we need to put Horde in some camp.

[Trassk]

He was right, we need to put Horde in some camp.

Whelp he's dead, dead dead dead, deader then a dead piece of roadkill dead.

And now Jaina's being told by someone less then half her age to stfu.

The only ones who think admiral proudwhore was right are edgelords.

[Luthilan]

Everything Garrosh did towards her is basically what made her lose all faith in the Horde (Theramore, Dalaran, etc.). Time that with losing Arthas and every chance she had at new love with Kalecgos (not sure if that was only in Tides of War or if it was in game) I feel like she has really lost everything that made her happy. All she really has left is the rage she feels leftover from Garrosh that in my mind can only end with her dying or losing someone close to her and coming to her senses. As it stands right now I don't see her coming to her senses anytime soon.

[Kallisto]

Yeah, no, the Horde invasion of Gilneas is not "just trying to survive", it's an invasion of aggression pure and simple, and Genn has every reason to hate the Horde for that reason, especially as far as we know, the Alliance is still skirmishing with the Horde on the borders of that nation state. To say Genn is "unfair" in hating the Horde is hilariously flawed, and just shows your blatant disregard for the story, and are making up your own.

And then to say they must be good because neutral factions associate with them, that's entirely a game mechanic.

It's fine to be on the Horde's side, but don't just make shit like this up.

Actually for the forsaken the invasion was just trying to survive. Garrosh ordered the invasion and if the Forsaken refused they would have been killed outright. Hell Garrosh's own plan was to have as many killed as possible during said invasion of Gilneas just so they could be wiped out and for him to return with an orcish fleet to clear up the alliance afterwards.

Thereby having no Forsaken in his horde, and the Lordaeron continent to himself.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

I actually have. And it was still a cowardice retreat. You don't leave your allies to save your own ass. That's the very definition of being a coward.

what do you expect ? Goel got shoot by 3 spaceships, Baine got nucked by a RND Demon and Voljin got stabed... Sylvanas was the only one left in a corner lol ....