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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Curnivore View Post
    Your testing method is flawed and you should not rely on it or ask others to use your own testing method because you will get flawed results too. At the very least you could do a world wide analysis of warcraftlogs but I don't know if that's even possible because you'd have to trim all other rotations out.

    I'll try to add that change to a simulation script I was running lately (the default one on a level 100 setup).


    You were were right apparently. There is a very modest DPS increase.

    The change was:

    actions.single_target+=/fire_blast,if=(buff.hot_streak.down&buff.heating_up.up)|(action.fire_blast.charges=2&!buff .heating_up.up)


    PS. Your method of testing is still flawed.

    What you posted isn't what he suggested though. The line you posted would only cast it when you have 2 charges (as to avoid wasting charges) which would rarely happen in practice whereas he suggested using it with any amount of charges.

    Edit:

    The way he described it, this would be his condition for fire blast:
    actions.single_target+=/fire_blast,if=(buff.hot_streak.down&buff.heating_up.up)|(!buff.heating_up.up)
    (<=> actions.single_target+=/fire_blast,if=buff.hot_streak.down)

    Compared to only casting fire blast with heating up active (and optionally with 2 charges, in practice this almost never happens and such only gives like 20 DPS in the sim as well), that results in a loss of 700 DPS with the standard 19M profile in Simulationcraft (as expected). The DPS loss would be even higher for worse gear since you'd have a lower uptime on heating up and a higher chance of wasting the heating up procced by fire blast.

    I don't even get how this can be a matter of discussion. Either case gets the same DPS out of fire blast but one maximizes hot streaks procs while the other doesn't. The only reason it doesn't result in a huge DPS loss currently is the very high amount of crit you can currently have in mythic gear.
    Last edited by GT4; 2016-08-13 at 02:09 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by GT4 View Post
    What you posted isn't what he suggested though. The line you posted would only cast it when you have 2 charges (as to avoid wasting charges) which would rarely happen in practice whereas he suggested using it with any amount of charges.

    Edit:

    The way he described it, this would be his condition for fire blast:
    actions.single_target+=/fire_blast,if=(buff.hot_streak.down&buff.heating_up.up)|(!buff.heating_up.up)
    (<=> actions.single_target+=/fire_blast,if=buff.hot_streak.down)

    Compared to only casting fire blast with heating up active (and optionally with 2 charges, in practice this almost never happens and such only gives like 20 DPS in the sim as well), that results in a loss of 700 DPS with the standard 19M profile in Simulationcraft (as expected). The DPS loss would be even higher for worse gear since you'd have a lower uptime on heating up and a higher chance of wasting the heating up procced by fire blast.

    I don't even get how this can be a matter of discussion. Either case gets the same DPS out of fire blast but one maximizes hot streaks procs while the other doesn't. The only reason it doesn't result in a huge DPS loss currently is the very high amount of crit you can currently have in mythic gear.
    In the end fire blast usage comes down to practice and there are so many variables on a per fight basis that its difficult to put it into a system of conditions.

    The way it is set up now is going on a suedo prediction system as to whether or not you get crits and will still have use to many starting the class.

    As always I recommend players read up on the class to get a better understanding of the mechanics and play the way they like.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by chesder View Post
    In the end fire blast usage comes down to practice and there are so many variables on a per fight basis that its difficult to put it into a system of conditions.

    The way it is set up now is going on a suedo prediction system as to whether or not you get crits and will still have use to many starting the class.

    As always I recommend players read up on the class to get a better understanding of the mechanics and play the way they like.
    The problem is you're suggesting a usage that is objectively worse in 99.9% of all scenarios and at most equal to the proper one (which is arguably even simpler) in the remaining 0.1%. This has nothing to do with practice or variables. Where practice and variables come into play is when you decide to bank charges for other cooldowns or certain phases in a fight.

    You might as well add in random scorch casts at this point if you're not concerned about a proper rotation anyway. Personally I could care less about you somehow thinking that using an ability with a clear purpose wrongly in your rotation is somehow "down to practice and [...] many variables" but since you're spreading that belief (that's what it really is since it's not supported by evidence), that's actually pretty problematic.
    Last edited by GT4; 2016-08-13 at 11:07 AM.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by GT4 View Post
    What you posted isn't what he suggested though. The line you posted would only cast it when you have 2 charges (as to avoid wasting charges) which would rarely happen in practice whereas he suggested using it with any amount of charges.
    You are right. I didn't mess up what I intended to do with the line change though. Instead, I misunderstood what he was saying, perhaps because I found it obvious he wouldn't mean to do that with only one charge of ABlast.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GT4 View Post
    The problem is you're suggesting a usage that is objectively worse in 99.9% of all scenarios and at most equal to the proper one (which is arguably even simpler) in the remaining 0.1%. This has nothing to do with practice or variables. Where practice and variables come into play is when you decide to bank charges for other cooldowns or certain phases in a fight.

    You might as well add in random scorch casts at this point if you're not concerned about a proper rotation anyway. Personally I could care less about you somehow thinking that using an ability with a clear purpose wrongly in your rotation is somehow "down to practice and [...] many variables" but since you're spreading that belief (that's what it really is since it's not supported by evidence), that's actually pretty problematic.
    Again I'll say that this serves as a tool to allow someone who's never played to see how the spec works at a basic level. Pooling cooldowns and managing hot streak requires practice and reading of the classes mechanics and also the mechanics on a per fight basis.

  6. #26
    Great job! One thing I noticed that if you are holding onto your combustion, it will keep showing that you need to cast Rune of Power even when RoP is on cooldown.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by chesder View Post
    Again I'll say that this serves as a tool to allow someone who's never played to see how the spec works at a basic level. Pooling cooldowns and managing hot streak requires practice and reading of the classes mechanics and also the mechanics on a per fight basis.
    I'm not sure if you're a) trolling, b) too stubborn to admit your tool has a simple error or c) not capable of reading and understanding simple posts. In either case, I'm sorry for the people who are misled by your misinformation (not only in the tool but also in the thread).

    Read through my post just once and you'll comprehend that this has nothing to do with "pooling cooldowns" or "mechanics on a per fight basis". "Press fire blast if heating up" is literally the core mechanic of fire. It's the reason Blizzard made fire blast 100% crit, off-GCD and gave it two charges so you have a basic rotation that's not completely reliant on RNG. If you're giving people the idea that the basic rotation involves pressing fire blast whenever it's ready and hot streak isn't up, you're simply misleading them.

    This is especially troublesome since people that you're apparently targeting (ones without any experience with the class and spec) are the most likely to have bad gear in which case not using fire blast properly is actually detrimental for your DPS since you cannot rely on your passive 60%+ crit making up for your mistake (that is using fire blast without heating up).
    Last edited by GT4; 2016-08-13 at 07:45 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by GT4 View Post
    I'm not sure if you're a) trolling, b) too stubborn to admit your tool has a simple error or c) not capable of reading and understanding simple posts. In either case, I'm sorry for the people who are misled by your misinformation (not only in the tool but also in the thread).

    Read through my post just once and you'll comprehend that this has nothing to do with "pooling cooldowns" or "mechanics on a per fight basis". "Press fire blast if heating up" is literally the core mechanic of fire. It's the reason Blizzard made fire blast 100% crit, off-GCD and gave it two charges so you have a basic rotation that's not completely reliant on RNG. If you're giving people the idea that the basic rotation involves pressing fire blast whenever it's ready and hot streak isn't up, you're simply misleading them.

    This is especially troublesome since people that you're apparently targeting (ones without any experience with the class and spec) are the most likely to have bad gear in which case not using fire blast properly is actually detrimental for your DPS since you cannot rely on your passive 60%+ crit making up for your mistake (that is using fire blast without heating up).
    Alright now I'm going to say this one last time.

    The tool has no error. Fire runs on one basic principle and that is to use Fireblast to trigger hot streak when needed. There is little to no depth beyond that.

    I get what you're saying but like I said, proper use of the spell ultimately comes from practice and reading. The profile suggests times when it may be a good idea to use it but it's under an assumption that crits are happening with some consistency.

    You'll also notice had you used the profile that it very literally never tells you to use it without heating up unless you are casting fireball. Again its assuming that fireball will crit.

    All I'm seeing is a lot of speculation about how the conditions for the spell were set up and no feedback regarding how it's actually working in game.

    Don't take this the wrong way but before you come stomping angrily about how wrong everything is maybe you should actually know how the tool works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterlock View Post
    Great job! One thing I noticed that if you are holding onto your combustion, it will keep showing that you need to cast Rune of Power even when RoP is on cooldown.
    I'll look into this. Stay tuned for a fix

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterlock View Post
    .
    Ok so the way that Rune of Power is configured is that it will suggest using it when you have at least 1 charge of the spell, the buff is not active and Combustion is available.

    I've been considering removing RoP from the rotation for a little while now and the issue you're experiencing is just a condition that I don't think can be set up for as it would be countering the other two conditions.

    For now if you would like it to not appear you can right click the RoP icon in the rotation and change the "While Conditions Pass" opacity from 100% to 0% (hidden)

    This will ignore it in the priority and move on.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by chesder View Post

    Ok so the way that Rune of Power is configured is that it will suggest using it when you have at least 1 charge of the spell, the buff is not active and Combustion is available.

    I've been considering removing RoP from the rotation for a little while now and the issue you're experiencing is just a condition that I don't think can be set up for as it would be countering the other two conditions.

    For now if you would like it to not appear you can right click the RoP icon in the rotation and change the "While Conditions Pass" opacity from 100% to 0% (hidden)

    This will ignore it in the priority and move on.
    Couldn't you add an "AND" condition somewhere in there to make sure Rune of Power's cooldown == 0 (Useable)? I see you already have a similar condition in there for combustion.

    EDIT: Yep, can confirm. I added that condition to the very bottom of the list for Rune of Power and it works perfectly.
    Last edited by Shinzou; 2016-08-14 at 12:27 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzou View Post
    Couldn't you add an "AND" condition somewhere in there to make sure Rune of Power's cooldown == 0 (Useable)? I see you already have a similar condition in there for combustion.

    EDIT: Yep, can confirm. I added that condition to the very bottom of the list for Rune of Power and it works perfectly.
    That's strange. The spell cooldown should default to unusable when at zero charges. Seems like a bug in the addon itself. I'll add that in now and again for future versions of profiles.

  11. #31
    Also curious as to why you don't have cinderstorm in the main rotation section? The consensus I am seeing is to use it on cooldown in your rotation.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzou View Post
    Also curious as to why you don't have cinderstorm in the main rotation section? The consensus I am seeing is to use it on cooldown in your rotation.
    I was thinking of adding it but at the time it wasn't 100% that it would be ideal in the rotation. I've been waiting for more raw data to come out before I added it if I did so.

    Often I choose to highlight spells on the bottom bar to allow players the ability to track and use the spells when they want, on cooldown or not. If the spell ends up being strictly an "on cooldown" situation then I'll add it to the rotation. This also works inversely where spells I believe should be on cooldown start on the rotation, but as information comes out I move the spell to a cooldown tracker instead.

    That was the case with Eye Beams on DH and also some spells for Druids.
    Last edited by chesder; 2016-08-14 at 01:11 AM.

  13. #33
    Rinoa's guide on Altered Time forums goes into good detail about Cinderstorm. It is good in all situations. Heck even my own simcraft shows it as a 4k dps decrease when I don't use it.

    https://www.altered-time.com/forum/v...anchor-Talents

    If one has the prophecy of fear trinket it would be good to save it for the trinket proc if the trinket is coming off CD soon, but for those who don't have it it is best to use on cooldown.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzou View Post
    Rinoa's guide on Altered Time forums goes into good detail about Cinderstorm. It is good in all situations. Heck even my own simcraft shows it as a 4k dps decrease when I don't use it.

    https://www.altered-time.com/forum/v...anchor-Talents

    If one has the prophecy of fear trinket it would be good to save it for the trinket proc if the trinket is coming off CD soon, but for those who don't have it it is best to use on cooldown.
    I'll take a read. Thanks for the link. I'll update the profile if necessary

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinzou View Post
    .
    Ok so I read more about the ability from the link you gave me and I don't think it's a good idea to put in the rotation and this is why.

    There will be some encounters where hitting all 6 cinders will be easy as the target is large but there will also be encounters where this is not the case due to movement or range. Maximizing the damage of the ability comes down to the timing of it's use as well as the enemy being hit by it and because of that I think it's best to leave the decision on when and how to use it up to the player.

    Ultimately I think at most I could add a cooldown flash to make it more apparent it's available but I don't want to mislead players into thinking that the icon is shown because the spell will deal maximum damage when it may not.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by chesder View Post
    Alright now I'm going to say this one last time.

    The tool has no error. Fire runs on one basic principle and that is to use Fireblast to trigger hot streak when needed. There is little to no depth beyond that.

    I get what you're saying but like I said, proper use of the spell ultimately comes from practice and reading. The profile suggests times when it may be a good idea to use it but it's under an assumption that crits are happening with some consistency.

    You'll also notice had you used the profile that it very literally never tells you to use it without heating up unless you are casting fireball. Again its assuming that fireball will crit.

    All I'm seeing is a lot of speculation about how the conditions for the spell were set up and no feedback regarding how it's actually working in game.

    Don't take this the wrong way but before you come stomping angrily about how wrong everything is maybe you should actually know how the tool works.
    I was going by how you said it would work in your video and by what you said in this very thread.

    See:

    I was discussing it with mages who raid at a high level and the general concensus was that it is ok to put fire blast after we a fireball as long as you can save at least two for combustion
    and

    The way the profile is set up is that fire blast will be suggested when heating up is active or when casting fireball and it's not active. You ignore it if you like but from personal raid testing it was the same dps either way.
    "Casting fireball" is not a valid condition to use fire blast without having heating up and "assuming that fireball will crit" is a stupid assumption to make when you don't have to make that assumption when using fire blast properly to begin with. Even with the best gear available, you'll rarely have >80% crit on a fireball cast which still means there's a 20% chance you'll waste a crit on a heating up that resets whereas using fire blast properly you wouldn't waste that crit. The worse your gear, the higher the chance your condition will result in a wasted crit (easily reaching >50% in non-raid gear).

    I'm completely perplexed how you can be so stubborn when the proper rotation is actually less complex than the one you've currently implemented (once again, according to yourself). Once again, this has nothing to do with fight mechanics or practice as you keep claiming, it is the core ability interaction of the whole fire spec.
    Last edited by GT4; 2016-08-14 at 08:25 AM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GT4 View Post
    I was going by how you said it would work in your video and by what you said in this very thread.

    See:



    and



    "Casting fireball" is not a valid condition to use fire blast without having heating up and "assuming that fireball will crit" is a stupid assumption to make when you don't have to make that assumption when using fire blast properly to begin with. Even with the best gear available, you'll rarely have >80% crit on a fireball cast which still means there's a 20% chance you'll waste a crit on a heating up that resets whereas using fire blast properly you wouldn't waste that crit. The worse your gear, the higher the chance your condition will result in a wasted crit (easily reaching >50% in non-raid gear).

    I'm completely perplexed how you can be so stubborn when the proper rotation is actually less complex than the one you've currently implemented (once again, according to yourself). Once again, this has nothing to do with fight mechanics or practice as you keep claiming, it is the core ability interaction of the whole fire spec.
    Fire Blast is suggested properly. I've done tests, had others do tests, conversed with Mages who I can guarantee play at a higher level than you and have done testing on beta and live myself as a Mage. I see no reason to change the logic and stand firm on what I said about learning the class and understanding fight timing and mechanics.

    You can choose to disagree. That's your decision. But I won't be changing the profile.

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by chesder View Post
    I was discussing it with mages who raid at a high level and the general concensus was that it is ok to put fire blast after we a fireball as long as you can save at least two for combustion
    Hey man, no offence, but this is extremely incorrect. It'd be appreciated if you don't start spreading "rotations" like this! There are very few scenarios where you cast fire blast without heating up. The only ones I can really think of is when you got 2 fire blasts ready & RoP is active & you got no combustion buff & you got flame on ready, and even then you don't cast it during a fireball, but you cast 2 back to back to get a pyro quickly. And even that is debeatable.
    Last edited by mmoc130aeee1c6; 2016-08-14 at 09:37 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    Hey man, no offence, but this is extremely incorrect. It'd be appreciated if you don't start spreading "rotations" like this! There are very few scenarios where you cast fire blast without heating up. The only ones I can really think of is when you got 2 fire blasts ready & RoP is active & you got no combustion buff & you got flame on ready, and even then you don't cast it during a fireball, but you cast 2 back to back to get a pyro quickly. And even that is debeatable.
    The one proc that is highlighted is representing a situation where it is a judgment call. The Fire Blast icon will flash gold. That is likely the one that can be used or not as the player decides. All other showings are when Heating Up is active.

    Again fire is odd in that the best rotation occurs maybe once out of 10 pulls. Crit chance helps it be more consistent but its definitely a reactive spec and not proactive. The best I can do with this profile is attempt to be a little proactive but again it comes down to players understanding the timing.
    Last edited by chesder; 2016-08-14 at 09:45 AM.

  19. #39
    The Patient SherriMayim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chesder View Post
    Fire Blast is suggested properly. I've done tests, had others do tests, conversed with Mages who I can guarantee play at a higher level than you and have done testing on beta and live myself as a Mage. I see no reason to change the logic and stand firm on what I said about learning the class and understanding fight timing and mechanics.

    You can choose to disagree. That's your decision. But I won't be changing the profile.
    ...You've mentioned you've done tests and that other people have done tests and that tests were had and done with more tests.

    Do you have a link to these tests that people can go over and come to a consensus with your claim?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by SherriMayim View Post
    ...You've mentioned you've done tests and that other people have done tests and that tests were had and done with more tests.

    Do you have a link to these tests that people can go over and come to a consensus with your claim?
    I have a few logs but they are locked to people not in the guild. I'll ask permission if I can share some info from the Emerald Nightmare. Stay tuned.

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