Vengeance really squishy on live?

[Arborus]

So, Fallout or Feast of Souls? I can't really decide.

My preference has been Burning Alive.

Feast of Souls heals for basically nothing over 6 seconds, seems like easily the worst talent in the tier at 100.

Fallout is OK, but in any sort of AoE Burning Alive feels way better.

[Krille]

I found that the best AND worst part of vengeance is their healing.

In PvP, it's really good because it's a static heal that doesn't depend on incoming damage like the DK heal.

On the flip side, for raiding or anything that has lots of incoming damage at a high rate, it suck donkey tits because it's a static heal.


I've spent an hour dueling Veng DH on my BDK and I could not even put a dent on them. The duels would last like 10 minutes but it would always end with me DK on his knees and the Veng DH with pretty much 100% HP. Again, shows how good static self heals are (as well as Demon Spikes causing my DS to be parried and wasted, but that's a different story for a different time).

However, put that same DH in a mythic raid, and his healing will pail in comparison to my DKs who will have crazy high DS heals due to how it works.

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I'm assuming your guild has those bosses already on farm? No offense, but it doesn't really say much about a tank when you have 19 other people overgeared and with muscle memory of how the fight works. You can probably have a Rogue tank those in that scenario.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that DH tank sucks, I'm just saying that just because you tanked Mythic with one when the encounters are already on farm doesn't really prove they're good tanks.

DKs are in a good place. DH still needs a bunch of talents before we can truly judge their performance. It's boring! But that's the way it is. I'm impressed that they actually can tank this good right now.

[Deleted]

Feast of Souls heals for basically nothing over 6 seconds, seems like easily the worst talent in the tier at 100.

If by basically nothing you mean more or less 10 to 15% of your total healing at the moment, then sure.

[Arborus]

If by basically nothing you mean more or less 10 to 15% of your total healing at the moment, then sure.

Mine heals for ~ 36,000 over 6 seconds. 6k per second is nothing, barely over 1% of my max HP. Even if it's the most raw healing, consistent damage doesn't kill tanks in current content, burst damage does, and Feast of Souls does nothing against burst damage.

It's the same reason Bears laughed at Pulverize and Ysera's Gift before the patch and continue to laugh at Restoration Affinity. Total healing/total damage mitigated matters much less than mitigating the burst and keeping damage intake consistent.

[elfporn]

Mine heals for ~ 36,000 over 6 seconds. 6k per second is nothing, barely over 1% of my max HP. Even if it's the most raw healing, consistent damage doesn't kill tanks in current content, burst damage does, and Feast of Souls does nothing against burst damage.

It's the same reason Bears laughed at Pulverize and Ysera's Gift before the patch and continue to laugh at Restoration Affinity. Total healing/total damage mitigated matters much less than mitigating the burst and keeping damage intake consistent.

That's 1 soul fragment atleast. over the course of a fight it's significant relative to your other healing, as mione pointed out.

It should also be noted that the heal is the same no matter what pain level you use soul cleave at.

[Arborus]

That's 1 soul fragment atleast. over the course of a fight it's significant relative to your other healing, as mione pointed out.

It should also be noted that the heal is the same no matter what pain level you use soul cleave at.

It is a significant amount of total healing, but that healing is not relevant to your survival in any way unless you're taking very low consistent damage, which isn't going to threaten you regardless of talent choice.


Just because something is the most total healing or most total damage mitigated does not make it the best choice for actually keeping you alive.

It should also be noted that the healing doesn't scale with incoming damage- whereas Fiery Brand mitigates more damage the more damage you take due to being % based.

[elfporn]

It is a significant amount of total healing, but that healing is not relevant to your survival in any way unless you're taking very low consistent damage, which isn't going to threaten you regardless of talent choice.


Just because something is the most total healing or most total damage mitigated does not make it the best choice for actually keeping you alive.

It should also be noted that the healing doesn't scale with incoming damage- whereas Fiery Brand mitigates more damage the more damage you take due to being % based.

it's a HoT, procced after soul cleave use - unless you're regularly healing to full when you soul cleave, then it's generally not going to be an overheal.

And none of our heals scale with our damage taken, unlike DK's.

[Deleted]

I mean there's very few situations where that spreading from fiery brand is actually meaningful in any way regarding survivability if you want to discuss how meaningful a hot can be, so most of the time Burning Alive is just a dps talent. Which is very much fine and a good enough reason to pick it pretty often, but not enough to make Feast useless when they're not even competing for the same niche. 10-15% healing is nowhere near insignificant enough for the talent to be useless, besides there's more content than mythic raiding where that hot is plenty useful.

right now at 100 it's like, Feast for pure survivability on single target, Fallout for aoe, Burning Alive for scumbag dps.

At 110 yes feast is pretty bad, because Fallout does more or less better than Feast in every respect, but right now, without Feed the Demon and especially Painbringer, Fallout isn't that great either yet.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

That really inst valid. It's like saying to a level 90 tank they dont have any heroic Hellfire gear when they are trying tanking Slagmaul.

wtf are you talking about lol, thats the most valid reason there is?
Have you tried tanking on other specs without selecting talents?

I seriously can not believe anyone would even say this.
You shouldn't even be allowed to play the class right now. Their artifact tree is monstrous as well. Once they have it and their full talents they are a real tank.
Until then, its like a level 50 getting scaled up to 100. You only have half your abilities.

[Arborus]

it's a HoT, procced after soul cleave use - unless you're regularly healing to full when you soul cleave, then it's generally not going to be an overheal.

And none of our heals scale with our damage taken, unlike DK's.

Except when you have any sort of reasonably decent healer, in which case it's most definitely going to be overhealing.

I mean there's very few situations where that spreading from fiery brand is actually meaningful in any way regarding survivability if you want to discuss how meaningful a hot can be, so most of the time Burning Alive is just a dps talent. Which is very much fine and a good enough reason to pick it pretty often, but not enough to make Feast useless when they're not even competing for the same niche. 10-15% healing is nowhere near insignificant enough for the talent to be useless, besides there's more content than mythic raiding where that hot is plenty useful.

right now at 100 it's like, Feast for pure survivability on single target, Fallout for aoe, Burning Alive for scumbag dps.

At 110 yes feast is pretty bad, because Fallout does more or less better than Feast in every respect, but right now, without Feed the Demon and especially Painbringer, Fallout isn't that great either yet.

How is 40% DR on each spread not meaningful? Look at Arch with Boss + Deathcaller. Xhul with boss + Green add. There are plenty of situations where you want a proper shield wall and DH doesn't have one. Even just using it on trash pulls in dungeons isn't terrible. Burning Alive isn't a great analogue to a true Shield Wall, but it's better than nothing. You also mention its DPS applications- which are something the other talents don't have at all. The fact that Burning Alive provides a defensive and offensive benefit is quite significant.

Regarding Feast of Souls having uses outside of Mythic raids- sure, I could see it being useful for like...soloing or pvp. Situations where you don't have a pocket healer- but anytime you have someone healing you and you're taking more than scratch damage Feast of Souls looks extremely weak.

Again- I've not said that the healing is insignificant- it's clearly providing the most total healing/effective damage mitigation, my argument is that consistent healing/damage reductions are inferior to burst prevention talents in content where you're actually being threatened by incoming damage because that consistent healing/damage reduction is far less likely to save you.

Keep in mind my points are all in regards to level 100.

[Simulacrum]

Except when you have any sort of reasonably decent healer, in which case it's most definitely going to be overhealing.

That doesn't make much sense. By that logic taken to its conclusion, any loss in survivability (be that low healing, or low DR, or low avoidance, all of which serve the same purpose so that you can't dismiss one without dismissing all the others - which then logically take you to even more absurd places) that doesn't result in you instantly dying wouldn't be worth it because the undefined "reasonably decent healer" could just spend more of their time healing you, which is a pretty good approach to ending up being a pretty bad tank.

The question isn't whether or not soul feast helps you survive (it does, however trivially) but whether it helps more or less than the alternatives.

[Ihazpaws]

For gear I have (706 about 70% pvp pieces mastery as a mainstat) I can say easily DH is one of the least squishy tanks. 40% constant dmg physical reduction and 30% parry. High selfheals and ability to become almost immortal for 15sec. Also able to run far away from harms way instantly almost every time. DH is like mobile blood DK with high physical dmg reduction. Against casters DHs are atm much weaker but have good amounts of interrups. Hard to play compared to druids/warriors/paladins but nothing too overwhelming. Just need good CD handling and planning ahead.

[Vakna]

For those worried about Feast of Souls - the number displayed on the talent shouldn't really be paid any attention, it's a pretty powerful mechanic for a talent that works like ignite and other such rolling buffs these days. If you do 3 SC's in quick succession you are getting 3 of those Feast buffs stacked doing 3x the healing every second. Combine that with the fact all DH healing scales dynamically with attack power (agi boosts are great for DH's) and that the heal ticks very quickly instead of dumping it all at once, it's one of the most efficient heals you have and the least prone to overhealing. In my current mythic runs at level 100 Feast is second on my healing done overall, just behind Soul Cleave and ahead of Consume Soul. It is also ahead of Charred Warblades on beta but comes third to Leech if you're taking the Meta Leech talent, have the Meta artifact trait and/or the Leech legendary.

So overall it is probably the best talent on the tier unless you're facing an abnormally large amount of AoE situations, then you'd want Fallout for shit loads of souls. Also to be noted, it gets even better when you have more pain gen from Felblade/Meta Artifact Trait.

[Invisibelf]

It is a significant amount of total healing, but that healing is not relevant to your survival in any way unless you're taking very low consistent damage, which isn't going to threaten you regardless of talent choice.


Just because something is the most total healing or most total damage mitigated does not make it the best choice for actually keeping you alive.

It should also be noted that the healing doesn't scale with incoming damage- whereas Fiery Brand mitigates more damage the more damage you take due to being % based.

It's a pretty exceptional talent for soloing mythics/wod raid bosses, or even in mythics, and it's been far, and away better than the other choices for me in that row.

[worcester]

Anyone noticed/concerned that the mastery only buffs our active mitigation, while other specs' mastery around similar active mitigation also have a minor passive component.

Fel blood should be: You take 2% reduced damage taken from physical damage and Demon Spikes give an additional 6% against physical damage.

Then it's similar to block masteries in that not the whole budget for the stat is tied to active mitigation. My opinion is that using active mitigation at a good time should be a benefit in itself and reflect skillful play and not rely on having stats to make it worthwhile.

[Blur4stuff]

they're making the same mistake as with brewmasters, just not as bad. vengeance will be able to function, but war or druid will be much safer and more reliable. class if fun, though.

blizzard is trying too hard to make the tank specs different and in doing so guaranteeing that most of them will be noticeably worse. even on beta it feels like you are missing several things that a tank like the warrior has. there's nothing in the vengeance toolkit even at 110 to make up for it.

[Invisibelf]

Anyone noticed/concerned that the mastery only buffs our active mitigation, while other specs' mastery around similar active mitigation also have a minor passive component.

Fel blood should be: You take 2% reduced damage taken from physical damage and Demon Spikes give an additional 6% against physical damage.

Then it's similar to block masteries in that not the whole budget for the stat is tied to active mitigation. My opinion is that using active mitigation at a good time should be a benefit in itself and reflect skillful play and not rely on having stats to make it worthwhile.

Honestly I just wish Demon Spikes would go back to being damage reduction from everything instead of just physical. That would make me really happy.

[Vakna]

Anyone noticed/concerned that the mastery only buffs our active mitigation, while other specs' mastery around similar active mitigation also have a minor passive component.

Fel blood should be: You take 2% reduced damage taken from physical damage and Demon Spikes give an additional 6% against physical damage.

Then it's similar to block masteries in that not the whole budget for the stat is tied to active mitigation. My opinion is that using active mitigation at a good time should be a benefit in itself and reflect skillful play and not rely on having stats to make it worthwhile.

It gives you AP too, which unlike other tanks controls the amount of healing your abilities give you.

Also at end game level gear haste and mastery are a crazy good combo, they double dip each other so much that buffing the DH mastery even more would throw the balance really out of whack. It's in a good place.

[Agilent]

For those worried about Feast of Souls - the number displayed on the talent shouldn't really be paid any attention, it's a pretty powerful mechanic for a talent that works like ignite and other such rolling buffs these days. If you do 3 SC's in quick succession you are getting 3 of those Feast buffs stacked doing 3x the healing every second. Combine that with the fact all DH healing scales dynamically with attack power (agi boosts are great for DH's) and that the heal ticks very quickly instead of dumping it all at once, it's one of the most efficient heals you have and the least prone to overhealing. In my current mythic runs at level 100 Feast is second on my healing done overall, just behind Soul Cleave and ahead of Consume Soul. It is also ahead of Charred Warblades on beta but comes third to Leech if you're taking the Meta Leech talent, have the Meta artifact trait and/or the Leech legendary.

So overall it is probably the best talent on the tier unless you're facing an abnormally large amount of AoE situations, then you'd want Fallout for shit loads of souls. Also to be noted, it gets even better when you have more pain gen from Felblade/Meta Artifact Trait.

This is incorrect. Feast of souls does not stack it just refreshes the duration.

[Deleted]

Its been couple of days now and I honestly cannot complain about the vengeance spec. The sigils work like a charm in Mythic dungeons, the whole rotation can be subjective, but if it works for you, them thats fine. I compared my DK tanking (with legendary ring) to DH tanking and I really don't see the any weakness with the DH (known for being squishy for some odd reason) The 700ilevel gear from vendors mainly focuses on DPS spec rather than tank, perhaps critical strike for example is pretty much mediocre for tanking as it is the lowest from the stat priority, so I focused on mainly Haste > Mastery > Versatility.
I tanked HFC Mythic, HFC HC and also Mythic Dungeons with randoms, and I cannot complain, I had few deaths here or there, but it was mainly the healers faulty (as tanks more relay on them now) or someone from the group pulled more mobs with barrage (hunter).

Personal opinion, but I actually think DH tanking has a better edge than any other tanking spec, due to mobility.

But hey, this is just my experience, as I played it only couple for couple of days. We really don't need more talents at the moment.