Legion: Elemental Specific

[Nyel]

I doubt that Icefury will see a lot of use unless they buff it or there will some kind of setbonus that interacts with shocks.

Even with the Legendary ring, you're probably better off just picking EB for some ~60% uptime of the buff rather than hassle around with Icefury, Icefury alone doesn't even suffice to keep the buff up, you still need to throw in some nonboosted FrS (or lose uptime).



You can't "go" for legendaries, if you get the shitty legendary pants that regen hp while standing still (Or worse, the necklace) then you scream piss and blood but still use them because of higher Ilvl.

Probably missing something obvious here, but shouldn't Aftershock cause you to cast ES more often? Thereby getting even more ES out of it.

Not that it's any major loss, EM seems too strong in any talent build (granted, 2) while SET is still bad and Aftershock as hardly useful as well.

What I read Icefury is not that bad in overall results. Don't know if that's true but I prefer it just because it gives us mobility where we have literally none.

And I know that I can't go for Legendaries but if you've got the choice and you could only wear one it makes a difference which one to choose, doesn't it?

Regarding Aftershock... I don't know the exact issue with it and the item. Maybe that it's quite unnecessary at all or it doesn't harmonize well? I don't know.

In the end we seem to be still quite underwhelming. Months ago I was looking forward to Ele because they gave Ele a playstyle that is fun (again) but the balancing seems a bit awkward right now. Sure, it's not done yet but it doesn't look that good at all. Some of our talents are really lacking (Path of Flame, Elemental Fusion, the 100 row).

[Gaucho-]

What I read Icefury is not that bad in overall results. Don't know if that's true but I prefer it just because it gives us mobility where we have literally none.

And I know that I can't go for Legendaries but if you've got the choice and you could only wear one it makes a difference which one to choose, doesn't it?

Regarding Aftershock... I don't know the exact issue with it and the item. Maybe that it's quite unnecessary at all or it doesn't harmonize well? I don't know.

In the end we seem to be still quite underwhelming. Months ago I was looking forward to Ele because they gave Ele a playstyle that is fun (again) but the balancing seems a bit awkward right now. Sure, it's not done yet but it doesn't look that good at all. Some of our talents are really lacking (Path of Flame, Elemental Fusion, the 100 row).

Icefury will become a problem with Stormkeeper. You have to spend all charges of both spells in a small window on top of having to use MS spenders to not waste resources. Certain talent setups make Icefury also worse.

The Earth Shock legendary works like our current T18 set bonus. When using ES back to back it devalues Aftershock. Can't think of other problems with this talent yet.

It's true that we currently have to face some glaring issues. But we can't so enought about it except giving feedback.

[fengosa]

Icefury will become a problem with Stormkeeper. You have to spend all charges of both spells in a small window on top of having to use MS spenders to not waste resources. Certain talent setups make Icefury also worse.

The Earth Shock legendary works like our current T18 set bonus. When using ES back to back it devalues Aftershock. Can't think of other problems with this talent yet.

It's true that we currently have to face some glaring issues. But we can't so enought about it except giving feedback.

Stormkeeper has a 1 min CD, Ice fury has a 30 sec CD. As long as you initially stagger them and use icefury on CD properly I'm not sure where the problem lies.

0:00 stormkeeper
0:10 icefury
0:40 icefury
1:00 stormkeeper
1:10 icefury
1:40 icefury etc

The only real complaint I can see is that the 2 abilities don't stack with each other, but I'm not sure that's a problem. Recklessness macros aren't exactly skill tests.

Aftershock works best when you're generating and spending a lot of maelstrom. That's typically in aoe scenarios with CL and EQ, not ES. I'm not sure this counts as a glaring problem either.

[Kralljin]

What I read Icefury is not that bad in overall results. Don't know if that's true but I prefer it just because it gives us mobility where we have literally none.

The thing with Icefury in terms of mobility is simply that it's not as great even there, first off, the buff itself only has a >50% Uptime, quite possible that when you have to move, you might not have the Icefury buff.

Second, to get full value out of Icefury you need to have some Maelstrom left when you move, which would be quite a hassle to do so.

I like Icefury a lot, but after levelling and some Instances i dropped the talent simply because the rotation became much smoother with similiar / better results.

Stormkeeper has a 1 min CD, Ice fury has a 30 sec CD. As long as you initially stagger them and use icefury on CD properly I'm not sure where the problem lies.

And if you do that too often, you lose Icefury buffs down the line.

Because sometimes Icefury comes off cd and you need to move for 5+ sec.

Also, you need to take Icefury casttime into account.

And I know that I can't go for Legendaries but if you've got the choice and you could only wear one it makes a difference which one to choose, doesn't it?

Let me put it this way:

I was pretty active on for ~4 months, i've yet to receive a legendary.

And i'm not the only one.

So unless you get really lucky, you have one legendary in total when Emerald Nightmare comes out, at best.

So, it's quite possible that if you want the boots, you might be waiting for long time until you get them because there are 8 legendaries in total.

It's a neat thought game, but that's about it, the dice will decide your legendaries.

[fengosa]

And if you do that too often, you lose Icefury buffs down the line.

Because sometimes Icefury comes off cd and you need to move for 5+ sec.

Also, you need to take Icefury casttime into account.

Ok, that's a fair comment. Movement isn't going to line up with the CDs precisely and you'll have to pick and choose when to use it. You'll only use stormkeeper when its safe to stand still for a given time period and you'll use icefury when you have to move. Presumably doing it in this way maximizes your dps accounting or the fact that you have to move on that given. If you didn't have to move you could certainly be more efficient but that doesn't seem like a practical use for icefury. You'd be using EM in that case.

[Kralljin]

You'll only use stormkeeper when its safe to stand still for a given time period and you'll use icefury when you have to move.

Actually, one of the few advantages that Stormkeeper has is that you can use it while moving, you only need to get rid off all SK stacks afterwards.

[Gaucho-]

Ok, that's a fair comment. Movement isn't going to line up with the CDs precisely and you'll have to pick and choose when to use it. You'll only use stormkeeper when its safe to stand still for a given time period and you'll use icefury when you have to move. Presumably doing it in this way maximizes your dps accounting or the fact that you have to move on that given. If you didn't have to move you could certainly be more efficient but that doesn't seem like a practical use for icefury. You'd be using EM in that case.

You'll use Icefury whenever it's due in the priority list. Its not "just" for movement situations.

[binkenstein]

@bink

Regarding 'negative feedback loop' of haste on elemental focus. I believe your logic is flawed here on multiple accounts.

Firstly the calculation you are using is ultimately meaningless working out an 'effectiveness'. Net casts would be more useful.

E.G. if you have 50% crit your calc works out as follows:
40 spells per minute, 50% crit rate, 10 Lava Bursts = (10 + 0.5 * (40-10)) * 2 / 40 = 125% effectiveness ?! or 12.5% overall gain!?
50 spells per minute, 50% crit rate, 10 Lava Burst = (10 + 0.5 * (50-10)) * 2 / 50 = 120% effectiveness or 12% overall gain!?

You should be dropping the *2/n casts because it is meaningless.

Quite simply with 40 spells per minute and 20% crit you get 10lvb crits and 6 natural crits. That means 16/40 or 40% of your spells crit (this is important later).
and at 50 spells per minute and 20% crit you get 10lvb crits and 8 natural crits. That means 18/50 or 36% of your spells crit. (this also ignores that haste would give you slightly more lava surge and lava bursts.

You get more out of elemental focus with more haste, it is a linear relationship.

You acknowledge that your model also ignores back to back focus procs, but this favours haste as it reduces the % of total crits per casts as above numbers show which means that you are less likely to waste any focus procs.

Both of these relationships mean haste has nothing but positive impact on elemental focus, both increasing the net number of focus charges, and reducing the likelihood we will waste them.

If I've made an error in my assumptions feel free to let me know, if not I will be interested if this changes our stat weights.

Regarding mastery (and potm) I think it's clear that they should both effect more spells, mastery should extend to all spenders and potm should extend to all builders.

I made the example simple because it's a little more complicated than that.

The actual EF uptime calculation is: ((#LvB Casts + #Non LvB Casts * Crit %) * 2 - (#LvB Casts * Crit % + #Non LvB Casts * Crit % * Crit %)) / #Total Casts.

The first two parts are easy, working out how often you get a crit which grants 2 charges of Elemental Focus. The two subtractions are working out the number of times you get a non LvB crit after LvB or a non LvB crit after a non LvB crit, which generally results in losing 1 charge due to the 2 charge cap. There's another one where you cast 2 Lava Bursts in a row, but I haven't worked out a decent way to model that yet).

Also note that you can't have more than 100% effectiveness.

40 spells, 50% crit, 10 LvB = ((10 + 30 * 0.5 ) * 2 - (10 * 0.5 + 30 * 0.5 * 0.5))/40 = (50 - 12.5)/40 = 93.75% uptime
50 spells, 50% crit, 10 LvB = ((10 + 40 * 0.5 ) * 2 - (10 * 0.5 + 40 * 0.5 * 0.5))/50 = (60 - 15)/50 = 90.00% uptime

The increase of LvB casts from Haste is actually fairly minimal, as it only increases the rate of Lava Surge procs. Going from 0% haste to 100% haste will result in an increase of 1 surge proc every 20 seconds to 2 procs every 20 seconds.

I'm also running Ele through a 865 PW setup in Bloodystats to get the optimal ratios. Raw data can be found here but the majority of it supports high crit. Most of my theories come from trying to explain data results rather than just making stuff up.

[desert-wind]

Yeah bink, I know that you knew it was more complicated I just think in this instance the conclusion you've drawn is a bit off. Don't get me wrong I normally defer to you and suggest people look at your guides before asking me any particular questions about ele.

No math being required, despite reducing the total % of crits and thus the total% of uptime of elemental focus, haste will increase the raw number of casts that are buffed by elemental focus. Additionally as a secondary effect of increasing the amount of non crit casts, will also increase the effectiveness of those gained focus procs, by reducing the likelihood they will be wasted.

Crit and haste should additively combine to our dps, and I think the post on stats is misleading people as I have already seen people lament on this point. Mastery is the only real problem and the fix being to make it also affect our spenders helps with both the intra class balancing of relative power of spells, but also makes it easier to balance elemental against other specs. PVP tuning knobs now being separate should allow elemental to come out of the dark ages where multistrike / mastery has kept us down because of 'oh noes teh pvpz!'

[Yizu]

Im not sure why cant they make icefury buff last 30s? It has charges that run out. And that would really make it a mobility spell like they intend it to

[Gaucho-]

Im not sure why cant they make icefury buff last 30s? It has charges that run out. And that would really make it a mobility spell like they intend it to

I'm also not sure what's the logic behind such abilities. Just make stack uptime = ability CD and everyone is happy.

[gambit998]

Mastery working on all spenders would be obscene. Earth Shock's max damage would be a ridiculous 4,245% SP. I think they'd be better off removing the MS penalty to buff mastery.

See i dont see the problem with that at all, it spends all our 'Resource' to actually hit like a truck.....im sorry i dont see that as a problem. God forbid we have a spell that people should be scared of. I am sure it worked with our Mastery During Wrath/Cata/MOP. (could be mistaken i am getting old and my memory she be fading :P)

Then again .... pvpwise this would probably be useless our damage is a laugh riot from what i have heard.

Still find it dumb that our toolkit is shafted because of our toolkit -.- (Dumb designers)

[Antilurker77]

See i dont see the problem with that at all, it spends all our 'Resource' to actually hit like a truck.....im sorry i dont see that as a problem. God forbid we have a spell that people should be scared of. I am sure it worked with our Mastery During Wrath/Cata/MOP. (could be mistaken i am getting old and my memory she be fading :P)

Then again .... pvpwise this would probably be useless our damage is a laugh riot from what i have heard.

Still find it dumb that our toolkit is shafted because of our toolkit -.- (Dumb designers)

Earth Shock already hits like a truck. The reason it does is because it can't proc mastery. If it did, they'd have to nerf it back to WoD levels or else our DPS would become really swingy.

[Deleted]

How ele is doing compared to warlocks at lvl110 with full artifact ? Shaman has a huge burst dmg, and i actually like the lore behind it and design, but for my raiding team i want to choose the better one. Can u guys help me with some correct aswers ?

[Gaucho-]

How ele is doing compared to warlocks at lvl110 with full artifact ? Shaman has a huge burst dmg, and i actually like the lore behind it and design, but for my raiding team i want to choose the better one. Can u guys help me with some correct aswers ?

Pure DPS classes, especially Mage, will always have the upper hand because of several DPS specs to chose from.

[Deleted]

Pure DPS classes, especially Mage, will always have the upper hand because of several DPS specs to chose from.

I will never play a mage There is only warlock or shaman, and I'm asking this because i can't decide between the 2 atm

[Deleted]

1. Play what is most fun to you.

2. If every % matters, play what does most DPS at 110 (will become obvious after launch).

Not that difficult!

[Gaucho-]

I will never play a mage There is only warlock or shaman, and I'm asking this because i can't decide between the 2 atm

There wont be a perfect answer to your question. Just make a con and pro list on what really matters for you then. Elemental has the same builder/spender mechanic as Destru - if this helps.

[Deleted]

I know thta but i will be more specific. My ele shaman is around 690 and i was able to do a huge burst dmg but then fall down on target around 24-27(no buffs), however i equiped my lock the same lvl gear and i could not burst so hard but i was able to do dmg around 30k without falling. So i trying to do test like these to decide, but at this point without BiS I have no clue about that since all specs tuned to 110+artifact. I enjoy both so only the numbers matter actually because i would main both but i cant xD

[Gaucho-]

Yes, but those are all active spells. No class has passive move while casting anymore.

Found another spell which is castable while moving. Demonwrath, a Shadowbolt filler alternative for Demo Warlocks.

- - - Updated - - -

I know thta but i will be more specific. My ele shaman is around 690 and i was able to do a huge burst dmg but then fall down on target around 24-27(no buffs), however i equiped my lock the same lvl gear and i could not burst so hard but i was able to do dmg around 30k without falling. So i trying to do test like these to decide, but at this point without BiS I have no clue about that since all specs tuned to 110+artifact. I enjoy both so only the numbers matter actually because i would main both but i cant xD

All of this isnt meaningful. We all have to wait for raid logs. Not to mention about possible last minute tuning changes, which could buff/nerf a class.