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  1. #121
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    I have a blue collared job. I realized working at minimum wage wasn't going to work if I wanted a family so I started learning a trade. I worked my ass off in order to do so. Then again I have the mentality If you do not work you do not eat. You have the mentality if you do not work, pilfer it from someone who does, and is successful. Your mentality is why Jamestown in the early 1600's in America occurred.
    Nope, this has nothing to do with what I was actually arguing, which is for fair compensation for labor. Nothing about anything being "pilfered" from anyone.


  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    I have a blue collared job. I realized working at minimum wage wasn't going to work if I wanted a family so I started learning a trade. I worked my ass off in order to do so. Then again I have the mentality If you do not work you do not eat. You have the mentality if you do not work, pilfer it from someone who does, and is successful. Your mentality is why Jamestown in the early 1600's in America occurred.
    This is such a fascinating phenomenon to observe.

    "I will paint myself out to be the good guy, and i will assign you to be the bad Guy. That means you are responsible for the bad stuff."

    This is basically on the verge of Delusion.

  3. #123
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    Then we can continue hurtling towards entropy. We're trying to grasp at ever-lasting life and it simply doesn't work that way, everything falls apart at some point, nothing last forever, etc. The best system is the one that understands this and adapts to it rather than FORCING it to go exactly as we want because lord forbid our high-standards get shattered.

    Not to mention, the very control of government you're advocating for, is why we're facing this uphill battle to begin with. As it grows and intermingles with market forces it'll become that much more corrupt and a greater extension of the market's strongest rather than an inhibitor. That's why I'd like to see it relegated to a mitigator versus a regulator. Where its sole purpose(when we're not discussing the court system) within the market is to prevent power from centralizing too much. An agile steward of sorts for fairness rather than some micro-manipulating behemoth that gets lost within its own sheer mass.

    I just don't get how we honestly came to believe that we could forever maintain a grossly bloated, materially based system forever. I always thought of the American people as more sensible than that. Things ebb-and-flow. Sometimes they're rough, other times they're good. The best economy is the one that can go with the flow and make the most of any situation. Otherwise you end up with HUGE crescendos and backbreaking descents and that's why we get so terrified of any decline, ironically only setting the table for it to occur in the first place with our immense appetites.

    That's probably why we can't address the centralization of wealth within this country in the first place. We're too greedy ourselves to take chances and really shake up the system.
    That's how the market works consumption will always increase and this isn't a bad thing, you oppose government control but provide no alternative what so ever that is realistic on how to manage spending.

    I find that governments should enforce banks to give out sensible loans if they don't they should be fined for it, i find that banks aren't allowed to use savings money and pension funds what are suppose to be reliable and safe assets and pour them into high risk ones without the INFORMED consent of the holder. Every crisis we had recently is not on the person taking the loan but is on those who handed out the loans, it is in the bank responsibility to inform the person. The same way that credit cards should not be handed out as candy canes, you need to have a stable and reliable income before you get one and need to have no debt and not be black listed by utility companies due to large back payments you never made. I am happy that in Europe banks are no longer allowed to play with our savings, i am happy that they need to be able to proof to have that much actual capital if they want to play with money on the market, so we'll never get another bubble of that sort that we saw before where money was being invested due to toxic loan products, money that didn't exist as it was basically a loan, repackaged a couple of times and sold between banks.

    The whole reason we got in these previous messes is that you had incompetent republican governments such as the Bush administration that threw around the one liner "release the bull!" markets do not self regulate equally, they create social bloodbaths. How many more mass foreclosures do you want to see?

    So i don't get how you say you know people aren't sensible and self controlling, but at the same time you provide no alternative to the government stepping in and making sure institutes like banks have to enforce that sensibility.

    As i said before your idea while works in theory requires a time machine back to the 40's-50's. Your idea is essentially removing a large group to buy on credit nowadays, i don't think you realize how much of a butterfly effect that would create if you suddenly remove their ability to buy either due to credit or state support.

    So yes i'm all for government influence, as it works every time the control apparatus slips or gets dismantled you get a market crash as the only thing more greedy then a person is a bank, an investment bank with easy access to personal savings and funds.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    That's how the market works consumption will always increase and this isn't a bad thing, you oppose government control but provide no alternative what so ever that is realistic on how to manage spending.

    I find that governments should enforce banks to give out sensible loans if they don't they should be fined for it, i find that banks aren't allowed to use savings money and pension funds what are suppose to be reliable and safe assets and pour them into high risk ones without the INFORMED consent of the holder. Every crisis we had recently is not on the person taking the loan but is on those who handed out the loans, it is in the bank responsibility to inform the person. The same way that credit cards should not be handed out as candy canes, you need to have a stable and reliable income before you get one and need to have no debt and not be black listed by utility companies due to large back payments you never made. I am happy that in Europe banks are no longer allowed to play with our savings, i am happy that they need to be able to proof to have that much actual capital if they want to play with money on the market, so we'll never get another bubble of that sort that we saw before where money was being invested due to toxic loan products, money that didn't exist as it was basically a loan, repackaged a couple of times and sold between banks.

    The whole reason we got in these previous messes is that you had incompetent republican governments such as the Bush administration that threw around the one liner "release the bull!" markets do not self regulate equally, they create social bloodbaths. How many more mass foreclosures do you want to see?

    So i don't get how you say you know people aren't sensible and self controlling, but at the same time you provide no alternative to the government stepping in and making sure institutes like banks have to enforce that sensibility.

    As i said before your idea while works in theory requires a time machine back to the 40's-50's. Your idea is essentially removing a large group to buy on credit nowadays, i don't think you realize how much of a butterfly effect that would create if you suddenly remove their ability to buy either due to credit or state support.

    So yes i'm all for government influence, as it works every time the control apparatus slips or gets dismantled you get a market crash as the only thing more greedy then a person is a bank, an investment bank with easy access to personal savings and funds.
    Me and you have completely different views on history.

    Who bailed out the banks and corporations when their own shitty practices fucked them over?

    Nah, I'm never going to believe that the government is the end all and be all of solutions. They have a role but micro-managing is a shit idea and I'm not budging.

    Edit: You know what, that's only partially true. The former that is. The latter is a bit over-the-top. I could budge. Just not tonight. Too tired for this shit tonight.
    Last edited by Rudol Von Stroheim; 2016-08-14 at 07:53 AM.

  5. #125
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    Me and you have completely different views on history.

    Who bailed out the banks and corporations when their own shitty practices fucked them over?

    Nah, I'm never going to believe that the government is the end all and be all of solutions. They have a role but micro-managing is a shit idea and I'm not budging.
    Government isn't the end to all solutions but it's a much needed apparatus in the banking world since they have shown time and time again self regulation isn't even in their dictionary.

    The bailing of banks were done as it would hurt everyone else more if they would have failed, if they failed a lot of people would have lost more houses, assets and savings, funds and so on. Not just in the US but globally. The banks should have been punished more afterwards something you oppose as you oppose government control.

    Again i keep hearing you say "no government!" but you provide no other sensible solution and no self regulation does not exist, since it never happens. It's also not a matter of views, the cause and effects of the crisis's we had before are well documented. We know what went wrong and therefor Europe has installed several measures to prevent it from happening again and these banks were recently tested.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    The bad. All those people are now having kids. I am one who thinks the world is overpopulated now.
    Such a stupid argument. I never understood you overpopulation guys.

    The problem isn't when well educated employed people have children. It's when some third world lady has 8 kids. THAT is what you should be focusing on.

    Hey but it's totally cool that YOU got to be born right?

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    $15/hour is a pretty poor wage. That's just over $30k/year. That's working-class, not even into lower-middle-class. Can we stop pretending that $15/hour is tons of money?

    Hell, when I get a TA position at my university, based on the expected 10 hours/week, it works out to something like $26/hour.
    The problem I have is not the amount of money, so much as the people who are not making $15/hour at the moment who had to go to school to get a degree, or at least a certificate to get their job. For example, I am currently working to get my AS in Respiratory Therapy. According to people I have asked in the field, starting pay is around $16-18/hour. I have worked for a year, and have a year to go on just the core work alone (thats not counting pre-reqs). I have had to jump through hoops to make it where I am. With this proposed increase, unless my hourly pay goes up as well, I will make little more than others who didn't have to go through all those hoops to get their job. Where is the incentive to go and get a degree if you don't make much of an improvement at the end? If there is no incentive, you lose all the interest in it.

    I'm not against people getting a higher pay. I would love that. I definitely feel you when people link the pay of one single person making millions or even billions per year while the rest of us make scraps. What I want to know, and no one seems to be able to answer is... how do we increase the pay of people on the bottom without screwing over other people in the process?

    I'm sure McDonalds and Walmart can pay twice the amount they do now, on labor costs. However, they would need to pay more to have everything be fair to those who have more responsibilities within the company. After a while, they will adjust costs to cover the difference in the profit they have lost. If they increase the price of everything they have by a lot, then whats the point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathcries View Post
    I think this is a good thing for companies like Walmart who can easily afford the 15 dollar minimum wage while other competitors fold because they cannot. Walmart does thank you. They want the minimum wage raised.
    Yes, let's let companies make a monopoly because others can't get to their status... great idea!

    /sarcasm

  8. #128
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    The problem I have is not the amount of money, so much as the people who are not making $15/hour at the moment who had to go to school to get a degree, or at least a certificate to get their job. For example, I am currently working to get my AS in Respiratory Therapy. According to people I have asked in the field, starting pay is around $16-18/hour. I have worked for a year, and have a year to go on just the core work alone (thats not counting pre-reqs). I have had to jump through hoops to make it where I am. With this proposed increase, unless my hourly pay goes up as well, I will make little more than others who didn't have to go through all those hoops to get their job. Where is the incentive to go and get a degree if you don't make much of an improvement at the end? If there is no incentive, you lose all the interest in it.
    Why is it that you think this will suddenly become an issue THIS time around, when wages have NOT reacted that way at any other minimum wage increase in history?

    You can pull $16/hour today because you have skills that allow you to have some sway in wage negotiations. That doesn't stop being true.

    I'm not against people getting a higher pay. I would love that. I definitely feel you when people link the pay of one single person making millions or even billions per year while the rest of us make scraps. What I want to know, and no one seems to be able to answer is... how do we increase the pay of people on the bottom without screwing over other people in the process?
    Same way its worked every time before; wages are constantly renegotiated. Minimum wage laws protect those whose skills, or lack thereof, mean they CANNOT effectively negotiate.

    I'm sure McDonalds and Walmart can pay twice the amount they do now, on labor costs. However, they would need to pay more to have everything be fair to those who have more responsibilities within the company. After a while, they will adjust costs to cover the difference in the profit they have lost. If they increase the price of everything they have by a lot, then whats the point?
    If they raising prices to raise their profit margins, that's got nothing to da with their payroll costs. Otherwise, a comparable price increase is literally mathematically impossible, due to higher wages alone.


  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Aww. Happy endings It likely was a publicity stunt and I don't think we can extrapolate findings from this experiment to mean that it is feasible for the majority of companies to pay their employees $70k a year, but I do think that all or most companies can afford to pay a living wage. And those that can't, probably shouldn't be in business.
    It is completely possible for companies to pay their employees a lot more than most do. I work for a company that has over 30,000 employees internationally, and earns several billion in revenue annually. Odds are they could pay every employee an extra $5,000 per year right now and still rake in record profits. If they paid people more, they would also attract better people who fill the jobs that are vacant and in need of filling.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Why is it that you think this will suddenly become an issue THIS time around, when wages have NOT reacted that way at any other minimum wage increase in history?

    You can pull $16/hour today because you have skills that allow you to have some sway in wage negotiations. That doesn't stop being true.
    Show me a time in history when minimum wage was nearly doubled. From what I recall, it has only gone up a few cents, maybe a dollar at a time. But not nearly close to double what it was.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    $15/hour is a pretty poor wage. That's just over $30k/year. That's working-class, not even into lower-middle-class. Can we stop pretending that $15/hour is tons of money?

    Hell, when I get a TA position at my university, based on the expected 10 hours/week, it works out to something like $26/hour.
    $30,000 a year was fine back in 1985 when a detached house cost $100,000-150,000 in Ontario. It isn't today, when a house costs $300-500,000 on average. I make around 37k annually at regular time, which is bullshit considering I should be in the $20 an hour range by now but our general manager refuses to allow supervisors to give out big raises, even to those of us who are bending over backwards for the company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    Show me a time in history when minimum wage was nearly doubled. From what I recall, it has only gone up a few cents, maybe a dollar at a time. But not nearly close to double what it was.
    When I first started working, minimum wage was $6.40 for part time and $7.25 for full time, 14 years ago when I was 17 and this is here in Ontario. Here it only really spiked once when it went to $10 for full time. Last time I had a job like that I was making $11 an hour 6 years ago. Minimum wage is actually a pretty bad thing to have, wages should be based on skill, education and experience rather than having a forced wage requirement.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Most estimates of how much your rent should be is around 30% of your net income, after taxes. Going with this calculator; http://www.rentlingo.com/how-much-rent-can-i-afford

    That's about $850/mo for rent.

    To "raise a family" on that, you're paying for at least two adults and a child, so you're going to need at least a 2-bedroom apartment below that price range. A quick check of some local listings here (well outside Toronto), and I can't see any under $950. Heck, there's ads on Kijiji for people looking for roomates in a 2br, askigng $700+.

    Maybe you live in an unusually cheap area, but that's not a realistic expectation for most people.
    You're assuming everyone lives in cities. The realistic expectation for most people in my area is around 500-600 per month rent. that's for a HOUSE. Low crime area, good schools, plentiful jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJoe View Post
    Ok, so tell me. What options does a person have that has no money to move and no higher paying job available in the area they live.
    You've just given me two excuses. Must not want it bad enough. Most success stories have great personal sacrifice as a common theme. You could start there. Options are everywhere if you have the motivation to find them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by broods View Post
    Such a stupid argument. I never understood you overpopulation guys.

    The problem isn't when well educated employed people have children. It's when some third world lady has 8 kids. THAT is what you should be focusing on.

    Hey but it's totally cool that YOU got to be born right?
    Exactly Never mind the fact that if you use the population density of india, the whole world's population would fit inside of texas. "overpopulation" is a myth, there's plenty of land to live and farm on. It's just governments will shoot you before they let you live free of their control.

  13. #133
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    You've just given me two excuses. Must not want it bad enough. Most success stories have great personal sacrifice as a common theme. You could start there. Options are everywhere if you have the motivation to find them.
    If options are so available why can't you tell me one or 2? I mean it should be easy right?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    Show me a time in history when minimum wage was nearly doubled. From what I recall, it has only gone up a few cents, maybe a dollar at a time. But not nearly close to double what it was.
    Truman took it from 40cents to 75 cents. That's an 87.5% increase. Pretty damn close to double.
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  15. #135
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kneehidude View Post
    Show me a time in history when minimum wage was nearly doubled. From what I recall, it has only gone up a few cents, maybe a dollar at a time. But not nearly close to double what it was.
    1973, the minimum wage was $1.60. They passed new legislation updating that over the next few years, with yearly increases until 1981, when it settled at $3.35.

    That's more than double. If you mean in one year, nobody has been arguing that the shift to $15 should be immediate. These things are always rolled out through yearly incremental updates. So you're attacking a nonsense argument that nobody's making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    You're assuming everyone lives in cities.
    My metropolitan area is three cities, and their combined population is a little over 300k; not "big city" by any means.

    But in general, yes; the vast majority of people live in urban areas. In the 2010 Census in the USA, that was over 80% of the population. it's flat-out unrealistic to expect that to change, for a host of reasons.


  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    You need to see how much the cost of nuggets are. The most popular item.
    5 bucks for 20. If I'm having a fat girl day, I'll get 2 of those, and use the McD's app to get 2 bucks off a 10 dollar or more order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain N View Post
    As a Union guy that type of attitude really makes me scratch my head. If more people fought for the worker instead of the employer we'd most likely see flourishing across all brackets. Unfortunately many of those "I got mine" types don't realize how very little they have in the grand scheme of things. It's almost sad that they think that raising the lowest levels of employment will hurt them...when in reality it gives them more negotiating power against their employers. Just an anecdote but as Chicago's minimum wage continues to climb towards $13/hour my Union negotiated a new contract with my employers giving us a 13% raise over the next few years. For me personally this raise alone boosted my daily rate of pay from $577 to $588 or to $65.39/hour based on a 9 hour day.
    Hey now, you better stop with that union talk before you get labeled a socialism or communist or worst.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJoe View Post
    If options are so available why can't you tell me one or 2? I mean it should be easy right?
    I don't know you or your story so i cant just make a snap judgement. But i'm sure people who have less and have it worse have changed their life around; they just decided they weren't going the live the way they were living anymore. It's not my job to find the way out for you. "Get busy living or get busy dying."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    1973, the minimum wage was $1.60. They passed new legislation updating that over the next few years, with yearly increases until 1981, when it settled at $3.35.

    That's more than double. If you mean in one year, nobody has been arguing that the shift to $15 should be immediate. These things are always rolled out through yearly incremental updates. So you're attacking a nonsense argument that nobody's making.



    My metropolitan area is three cities, and their combined population is a little over 300k; not "big city" by any means.

    But in general, yes; the vast majority of people live in urban areas. In the 2010 Census in the USA, that was over 80% of the population. it's flat-out unrealistic to expect that to change, for a host of reasons.
    I don't live in a rural area, and prices are still manageable. Maybe im one of the few lucky ones, though. People are never stuck where they're at, however. If they don't like it, they can always leave and find a location more suitable to their tastes/finances.

  18. #138
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinpachi View Post
    I don't know you or your story so i cant just make a snap judgement. But i'm sure people who have less and have it worse have changed their life around; they just decided they weren't going the live the way they were living anymore. It's not my job to find the way out for you. "Get busy living or get busy dying."

    I'm not saying some people can't get lucky. But to say everyone can change their career and be successful is factually false. If it were true people wouldn't live in poverty.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJoe View Post
    I'm not saying some people can't get lucky. But to say everyone can change their career and be successful is factually false. If it were true people wouldn't live in poverty.
    That would imply that people aren't afraid of change, and/or they aren't lazy. Like i said before, it has to be wanted bad enough for anything to be done about it. Otherwise its just apathy. Stop eating out, stop buying new clothes and electronics, cancel any gaming subscriptions, sell off anything you haven't used in the past year. Save every dime that isnt going towards expenses. Don't have any dimes left over? sell everything you own and move to an area with a lower cost of living. You do what you HAVE to do until you can do what you WANT to do. Find an area that has high (and growing) employment rates. It IS possible, but it WILL take work, determination, and sacrifice.

  20. #140
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    The smarter people are, the more they earn
    I applaud him for the stunt.

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