Arms Legion Discussion

[Deleted]

I don't get Blizzard. Seems like they are a bunch of sadists..
EVERYTIME I find a spec and think "Yes that is fun, I can enjoy this for a year or two" they nerf it. Instead of addressing the countless issues still present they change working play styles making them less fun.

Why was Deadly calm nerfed? To reduce the Harmstring spam they could have made it free and without doing damage. So it doesn't procc Tactician and isn't even worth using outside of a slow.

Why nerf FOB? Why nerf FR? Why do they take away everything that I find fun? It wouldn't be so bad if they had put something in to compensate.. like Anger Managment also reducing DbtS and Bladestorm. That way they would give the now useless talent more flavor and fixing two major Arms issues (more Defensives, more frequent AOE burst).

Trauma, Opportunity Strikes, In for the Kill are all passiv and all pretty boring. I am a spammer I need to push things fast and often. Deadly calm was perfect.. now not reducing Battle cry for its duration to use it mmore frequently.. urgh..

I think they nerfed FoB only cuz of pre-patch. I think they will buff it again once WoD is done. But all these changes are not set in stone and I'm not too much worried about it. The thing that bothers me the most is this long cd on Avatar and Bladestorm. Avatar never made much sense with min and half CD, u always had to delay something for it to line up everything, which is really bad design. I'd would prefer if Avatar is on 1 min CD and buff dmg when active for 15% instead of 20%. And like Avatar wasn't enough they also did the same with Bladestorm, and this change is "ok" but only for Arms cuz it became baseline, but for fury u actually need to talent Bladestorm, lose your pretty powerful Dragon Roar, just to get your class iconic AOE spell, and then realize how weak it is + it's a big DPS loss. Every time I mouse over Avatar or Bladestorm, and that 1,5 min CD tooltip pops up it's like sticking needle in my eye -.-

[gruxxar]

I think they nerfed FoB only cuz of pre-patch. I think they will buff it again once WoD is done. But all these changes are not set in stone and I'm not too much worried about it. The thing that bothers me the most is this long cd on Avatar and Bladestorm. Avatar never made much sense with min and half CD, u always had to delay something for it to line up everything, which is really bad design. I'd would prefer if Avatar is on 1 min CD and buff dmg when active for 15% instead of 20%. And like Avatar wasn't enough they also did the same with Bladestorm, and this change is "ok" but only for Arms cuz it became baseline, but for fury u actually need to talent Bladestorm, lose your pretty powerful Dragon Roar, just to get your class iconic AOE spell, and then realize how weak it is + it's a big DPS loss. Every time I mouse over Avatar or Bladestorm, and that 1,5 min CD tooltip pops up it's like sticking needle in my eye -.-

I think FoB is in a nice place, namely the go to talent for cleave & not the best choice for pure Single target. If you had your way, would you like to have FoB make WW the base filler for the entire expansion?

And on Avatar's topic, I don't really see how this could work differently. Bringing it down to 1min would make it simply too good as it would always be popped together with Battle Cry. Atm we can at least pair it up 2 out of 3 BC usages.

[Flaks]

Is there a certain amount of minimum haste we should be going for?

[Deleted]

I think FoB is in a nice place, namely the go to talent for cleave & not the best choice for pure Single target. If you had your way, would you like to have FoB make WW the base filler for the entire expansion?

And on Avatar's topic, I don't really see how this could work differently. Bringing it down to 1min would make it simply too good as it would always be popped together with Battle Cry. Atm we can at least pair it up 2 out of 3 BC usages.

I would actually prefer to have options, and not be forced to use Slam as ST filler. I really like new WW, I like sound effect of 3 hits with the sound of winds when u swing your weapon, and spell animation is super cool, unlike Slam who's spell and sound effect is like you hitting someone with a broom. Right now, if u don't take OP as talent, rotation comes down to CS - MS - Spam Slam, and that is pretty dull. And that actually pushed me away from my long time favorite game spec Arms to play fury. But I just want to wish long and happy life whoever designed fury for Legion. It's the most fun spec I played since WotLK expansion (especially when u get your hands on Ayala's legendary ring).

Back to Avatar topic. Making it 1 min CD would make much more sense. First of all, u need to delay your Battle Cry for Avatar or vice versa. Also, all the trinkets I saw so far are either on 1 or 2 min CD, I don't think I saw trinket with 1.5 min CD. And no it wouldn't be too good, cuz numbers can always be tunned. So either reduce dmg buff or make Avatars duration shorter. I would also like it more if Avatar is on 2 minute CD with longer duration or higher dmg buff.

[globezorz]

I think they nerfed FoB only cuz of pre-patch. I think they will buff it again once WoD is done. But all these changes are not set in stone and I'm not too much worried about it. The thing that bothers me the most is this long cd on Avatar and Bladestorm. Avatar never made much sense with min and half CD, u always had to delay something for it to line up everything, which is really bad design. I'd would prefer if Avatar is on 1 min CD and buff dmg when active for 15% instead of 20%. And like Avatar wasn't enough they also did the same with Bladestorm, and this change is "ok" but only for Arms cuz it became baseline, but for fury u actually need to talent Bladestorm, lose your pretty powerful Dragon Roar, just to get your class iconic AOE spell, and then realize how weak it is + it's a big DPS loss. Every time I mouse over Avatar or Bladestorm, and that 1,5 min CD tooltip pops up it's like sticking needle in my eye -.-

First of, they DIDNT NERF FOB, they just buffed slam. Nothing got nerfed. Nothing changes except your single target filler is actually a single target spell.

Secondly, not every cooldown on the game can line up perfectly so just just forget about it. It makes them too strong and too easy. Avatar is fine, you have to actually know the fight. How long will it last? Is there burst phases? Is there a priority target needing to die? Knowing all those things can help you decide whether to delay a cooldown to sync up or fire them on cooldown where you're still getting Avatar and BC to sync up 2/3 times.

As fas as blade storm, it's a bonus spell for Arms because it's an Iconic ARMS ability, it's just a free bonus AoE spell that works well, especially with our Artifact. Again, if you want to cooldown to line up with BC you'll have to take ravager, so again, know the fight and make decisions.

[Deleted]

First of, they DIDNT NERF FOB, they just buffed slam. Nothing got nerfed. Nothing changes except your single target filler is actually a single target spell.

Secondly, not every cooldown on the game can line up perfectly so just just forget about it. It makes them too strong and too easy. Avatar is fine, you have to actually know the fight. How long will it last? Is there burst phases? Is there a priority target needing to die? Knowing all those things can help you decide whether to delay a cooldown to sync up or fire them on cooldown where you're still getting Avatar and BC to sync up 2/3 times.

As fas as blade storm, it's a bonus spell for Arms because it's an Iconic ARMS ability, it's just a free bonus AoE spell that works well, especially with our Artifact. Again, if you want to cooldown to line up with BC you'll have to take ravager, so again, know the fight and make decisions.

First of all yes they did (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...uning-Hotfixes). FoB was 50% quite some time and they decided to nerf it right before pre-patch goes live. Also, WW got nerfed by 15% in the same hotfix.

Second, fury's CDs line up almost perfectly, with 5-second delay on Odyn's fury. And it doesn't make them too strong or too easy, it makes them more convenient. If somethings to strong it gets nerfed, it doesn't get its CD increased lol. And u can never know the fight unless u did it completely. And even then u can't be sure exactly until u check forums/warcraft logs or ask theory crafters ^^

[globezorz]

First of all yes they did (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...uning-Hotfixes). FoB was 50% quite some time and they decided to nerf it right before pre-patch goes live. Also, WW got nerfed by 15% in the same hotfix.

Second, fury's CDs line up almost perfectly, with 5-second delay on Odyn's fury. And it doesn't make them too strong or too easy, it makes them more convenient. If somethings to strong it gets nerfed, it doesn't get its CD increased lol. And u can never know the fight unless u did it completely. And even then u can't be sure exactly until u check forums/warcraft logs or ask theory crafters ^^

Didn't realize you guys were talking about shit that happened weeks ago, not the most recent changes. And won't even discuss your other point. If you need CDs that line up to play then play another class. Theory crafters and forums won't be able to tell you how long it will take your group to kill a boss lol. What?

[Deleted]

Didn't realize you guys were talking about shit that happened weeks ago, not the most recent changes. And won't even discuss your other point. If you need CDs that line up to play then play another class. Theory crafters and forums won't be able to tell you how long it will take your group to kill a boss lol. What?

Well, im actually playing fury where Avatar is behind Wrecking Ball and therefore I won't use it (at least not on progress). And I wasn't referring to kill time when I said that. No one can know that, especially not on progress. My point was to ask theory crafters/check forums for help like when to use certain abilities when u should delay your CDs and is it worth it, and what's your priority basically as arms or fury warrior on a lot of different encounters.

[globezorz]

Well, im actually playing fury where Avatar is behind Wrecking Ball and therefore I won't use it (at least not on progress). And I wasn't referring to kill time when I said that. No one can know that, especially not on progress. My point was to ask theory crafters/check forums for help like when to use certain abilities when u should delay your CDs and is it worth it, and what's your priority basically as arms or fury warrior on a lot of different encounters.

You shouldn't need theorycrafters for that though. The answer is almost always you don't delay usage of abilities if it means you'll lose a use of it, or if fight mechanics promote using certain things at certain times (feast on Gorefiend), but you should be able to understand mechanics and get a sense of fight length even on progression. Same thing with deciding which talent to use, once final tuning comes, you should know what talents are best just by seeing the fight a few times. That's my only point though, and for why avatar and bladestorms CDs are fine. But enjoy your Fury friend, glad you found something you enjoy playing!

[Teaon]

5 of our tier sets contains HASTE, which is going to be the worst stat ( as what simmed )

like 5 tier no mastery only the back do, any solutions for this?

[Deleted]

5 of our tier sets contains HASTE, which is going to be the worst stat ( as what simmed )

like 5 tier no mastery only the back do, any solutions for this?

99% those stats are placeholder/will change.

[Teaon]

99% those stats are placeholder/will change.

hope so, because these stats makes me cry

[Deleted]

You shouldn't need theorycrafters for that though. The answer is almost always you don't delay usage of abilities if it means you'll lose a use of it, or if fight mechanics promote using certain things at certain times (feast on Gorefiend), but you should be able to understand mechanics and get a sense of fight length even on progression. Same thing with deciding which talent to use, once final tuning comes, you should know what talents are best just by seeing the fight a few times. That's my only point though, and for why avatar and bladestorms CDs are fine. But enjoy your Fury friend, glad you found something you enjoy playing!

Yes most of the theory crafting I do it myself, sometimes I'm wrong tho. Best source (for me at least) was to check warcraft logs. It's pretty advanced site and u can learn much. I always check logs from top guilds, and their warriors and watch replays, so I get an idea what are they doing, and how is different from my vision on the certain encounter. I'm sticking with fury cuz its super fun to play. What's the difference between specs DPS wise I really can't tell at this point, cuz all the testing I did in the emerald nightmare and nighthold was with fury. However I will level my arms artifact also, cuz i see arms has great potential to be a beast on fights like High Botanist. He spawns add (copy of himself) which has a sh*t ton of health and i think arms will shine on that fight.

[Archimtiros]

Well, im actually playing fury where Avatar is behind Wrecking Ball and therefore I won't use it (at least not on progress). And I wasn't referring to kill time when I said that. No one can know that, especially not on progress. My point was to ask theory crafters/check forums for help like when to use certain abilities when u should delay your CDs and is it worth it, and what's your priority basically as arms or fury warrior on a lot of different encounters.

Keep in mind that Avatar is not, and never has been, behind Wrecking Ball. Avatar is always better than Wrecking Ball, even on very short or very long fights. The only time that Wrecking Ball potentially overtakes Avatar is in sustained cleave situations (maybe Xhul'horac), but even that is questionable.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind that Avatar is not, and never has been, behind Wrecking Ball. Avatar is always better than Wrecking Ball, even on very short or very long fights. The only time that Wrecking Ball potentially overtakes Avatar is in sustained cleave situations (maybe Xhul'horac), but even that is questionable.

I don't know what exactly are you referring to. I'm was not talking about live, where Avatar it is better than Wrecking Ball, I was talking about Avatar vs WB in Legion cuz I did normal nighthold and the emerald dream testing.

[Archimtiros]

I don't know what exactly are you referring to. I'm was not talking about live, where Avatar it is better than Wrecking Ball, I was talking about Avatar vs WB in Legion cuz I did normal nighthold and the emerald dream testing.

Even in Legion content, Avatar is better than WB. Xhul'horac was an example of the type of fight, not indicative of the expansion.

[Deleted]

Even in Legion content, Avatar is better than WB. Xhul'horac was an example of the type of fight, not indicative of the expansion.

At this point, u can't possibly know that. Fury has a very short burst window of 5 seconds, after that is all sustained, and I fail to see how Avatar with 1.5 min CD and 20 sec duration can be better than WB. It does, however, increase Faulty Countermeasure dmg, and it last 20 seconds like a trinket, so maybe will pull ahead, it's hard to tell. But I will roll with WB anyway, it makes rotation smoother and more fun, and legendary waist will buff WB even further, and it will go to talent for fights like Il'gynoth, The Heart of Corruption or Elerethe Renferal or Tichondrius imo.

[Archimtiros]

At this point, u can't possibly know that. Fury has a very short burst window of 5 seconds, after that is all sustained, and I fail to see how Avatar with 1.5 min CD and 20 sec duration can be better than WB. It does, however, increase Faulty Countermeasure dmg, and it last 20 seconds like a trinket, so maybe will pull ahead, it's hard to tell. But I will roll with WB anyway, it makes rotation smoother and more fun, and legendary waist will buff WB even further, and it will go to talent for fights like Il'gynoth, The Heart of Corruption or Elerethe Renferal or Tichondrius imo.

... Really?

I can absolutely know it, considering that I've participated in every scheduled and many unscheduled raid tests, and I wrote the APL used by Simcraft to quantify these exact questions.

You're completely free to use WB if you'd like, nobody ever said you weren't, but don't try to tell me I can't know how well something performs after making a statement like "im actually playing fury where Avatar is behind Wrecking Ball and therefore I won't use it (at least not on progress)", when I'm infinitely more qualified to do so and have actually done the work to prove it.

[Deleted]

... Really?

I can absolutely know it, considering that I've participated in every scheduled and many unscheduled raid tests, and I wrote the APL used by Simcraft to quantify these exact questions.

You're completely free to use WB if you'd like, nobody ever said you weren't, but don't try to tell me I can't know how well something performs after making a statement like "im actually playing fury where Avatar is behind Wrecking Ball and therefore I won't use it (at least not on progress)", when I'm infinitely more qualified to do so and have actually done the work to prove it.

Ok if you done testing with Avatar, can u link logs? I want it to compare, cuz I did all of the bosses without switching from WB.

[Archimtiros]

Ok if you done testing with Avatar, can u link logs? I want it to compare, cuz I did all of the bosses without switching from WB.

First off, directly comparing logs gets you nowhere. There will be major differences between fight length, raid comp, strategy, gear, artifact investment, proc variance (ie: luck), and general skill which will all skew results. This is precisely why programs like Simcraft exist.

Second, without regard for the above, if you did all the bosses without switching from WB, how would you be able to come to the conclusion that WB was better than Avatar?