Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Spriestlawl]

15% crit on evisc is 3-5% DPS depending on what other traits you have. It's as strong as the nightblade and shadowstrike talents.


Anyway, I was obviously curious as well, so I graphed out various paths I could think of.

Here are the results.

The bottom graph is more representative of DPS over the course of time, as it is scaled based on total AP spent. I capped it at 25 traits spent because by that point the amount of power you spend gets pretty extreme, and all you can see is the last couple points you spent.

Notes: The bottom path is way more competitive than I expected (Path D and E) since you get a lot of damage early, and then evens out with the others later. But as you pointed out, early damage is important both for progression and because artifact power costs scale exponentially.

In practice you'd end up getting a long droughts when you need to fill out the dodge talents and they cost tens of thousands each which could get boring, but you may want to spend that time leveling up offset weapons anyway.

Gutripper first and then bottom path (Path E) spikes up later than Path D because it gets the golds later, but it's above Path D for a good part of the curve as you can see from the bottom graph.

Top path to akaari's before finality (Path C) I shouldn't have even bothered graphing, because finality and the traits leading up to it are better than akaari's, and after you get both it's the same as Path B.

My original suggestion of Path A (top path down to finality + nightblade + shadowstrike, then akaari's and shadow nova) provides a reasonable curve, but ends up being worse than other options at almost every point.

I'm realizing now I should also try bottom path to finality, then gutripper, then akaari's soul and shadow nova (or just give up after gutripper)
Added as Path G: Follows the same path as Path E but spikes earlier, since it gets finality earlier, then stays ahead until around 20 artifact points and then spikes ahead again once it picks up Akaari's. (Which, granted, isn't until 26 with this build.)

it's important people realistically look at what they can grab AP wise and if they'll make it to those 25/26th trait levels.

[Chemii]

So whats a realistic time frame for the stages assuming we follow path G? Quick to finality and then slow from that point?

I've literally no idea on when I'll grab certain points, can I expect to have finality by 110?

[kindath]

So whats a realistic time frame for the stages assuming we follow path G? Quick to finality and then slow from that point?

I've literally no idea on when I'll grab certain points, can I expect to have finality by 110?

I honestly don't know either, they were changing artifact power gains all throughout beta.

From what I can gather, the intention is that you'll get to about 13 by leveling to 110 (especially since those traits are all significantly less expensive), and then start gaining traits more slowly after that at max level. How slowly I'm not sure - I would guess 1-2 per week, based on their timeframe of how long they said it would take to max out an artifact. A motivated rogue could probably get significantly more.

That gets you to your first golden within the first week or two regardless of what path you take.

The bigger question is what range we'll be in when we start raiding and/or mythic - if we'll be between 14 and 22 traits, path G is the correct path, but if you can reliably get 23 artifact traits or more before it matters, there are other more efficient paths.

[Chemii]

I honestly don't know either, they were changing artifact power gains all throughout beta.

From what I can gather, the intention is that you'll get to about 13 by leveling to 110 (especially since those traits are all significantly less expensive), and then start gaining traits more slowly after that at max level. How slowly I'm not sure - I would guess 1-2 per week, based on their timeframe of how long they said it would take to max out an artifact. A motivated rogue could probably get significantly more.

That gets you to your first golden within the first week or two regardless of what path you take.

The bigger question is what range we'll be in when we start raiding and/or mythic - if we'll be between 14 and 22 traits, path G is the correct path, but if you can reliably get 23 artifact traits or more before it matters, there are other more efficient paths.

Can I assume that the relics will add a point to that trait, even if you have invested no artifact power into it? Meaning I could up the damage of nightblade even if I don't have the path to demons kiss yet?

Thanks for your efforts by the way, much appreciated.

[kindath]

Can I assume that the relics will add a point to that trait, even if you have invested no artifact power into it? Meaning I could up the damage of nightblade even if I don't have the path to demons kiss yet?

Thanks for your efforts by the way, much appreciated.

Yes, relics add points to traits you don't have yet.

For relics, looks like you'll be looking for (highest ilevel first, but assuming same ilevel): Energetic Stabbing > Demon's Kiss >= Precision Strike >= Gutripper >>> Fortune's Bite > Soul Shadows > The Quiet Knife

[shaunika123]

Yes, relics add points to traits you don't have yet.

For relics, looks like you'll be looking for (highest ilevel first, but assuming same ilevel): Energetic Stabbing > Demon's Kiss >= Precision Strike >= Gutripper >>> Fortune's Bite > Soul Shadows > The Quiet Knife

does energetic stabbing become the worst once you get the legendary boots ? i'd assume it does

[Minka]

Hi rogues!

I am still struggling between sub and assa.
Do you think Sub will be good when Raiding and Mythic+ starts? Or will we gimp ourselves when we dont take Outlaw /assa for the better damage till a specific Ilvl?

Also do you think leveling as Sub is faster or Assa becasue of Leeching poison?

[shaunika123]

Hi rogues!

I am still struggling between sub and assa.
Do you think Sub will be good when Raiding and Mythic+ starts? Or will we gimp ourselves when we dont take Outlaw /assa for the better damage till a specific Ilvl?

Also do you think leveling as Sub is faster or Assa becasue of Leeching poison?

leveling as sub is great, soothing darkness is probably even better but at least competitive with leeching poison

as for raids, it's still kinda early to tell since blizzard is nerfing and buffing a lot still, but i think getting the first golden traits in outlaw and assa and then spending the rest on sub will be the best imho

[kindath]

does energetic stabbing become the worst once you get the legendary boots ? i'd assume it does

Looks like yes. Might still be better than quiet knife though.

[shaunika123]

Looks like yes. Might still be better than quiet knife though.

i dont know when i was testing the boots on beta my energy didnt even go below half during dance, it literally makes energetic stabbing worthless :P

[kindath]

i dont know when i was testing the boots on beta my energy didnt even go below half during dance, it literally makes energetic stabbing worthless :P

A average shadowdance with subterfuge and legendary boots and baseline energy regen would be something like... -20, -20, +15 to 25 (up to +65 with DS), -20, -20 (+15-25 from finisher after, depending on DS/vigor). Which means an average shadowdance would cost about 40 energy on average? More like 35 with haste.

On average, one of those shadowstrikes would proc Energetic Stabbing, which gives back 15 energy at 3/3 - each point or relic grants about 5 energy per shadowdance. A bit less, actually, since with DS you'd sometimes do two finishers during the shadowdance window and only get in 3 shadowstrikes. Total energy usage goes down to ~20.

So assuming you pooled to a certain amount of energy before dancing, you'd pool about 2/haste seconds before dancing again, and each additional point in energetic stabbing reduces the time you have to pool by ~0.5s/haste. (Not totally true, because shadowy techniques is a thing and energetic stabbing can proc more or less often. And with energetic stabbing and boots, you wouldn't have to pool as high since you're using less during the dance.)


TLDR; Energetic stabbing does still have value, but the APL probably needs to not pool as much to get more value out of it.

(Is it better to go Nightstalker with DS for SD > SS > SS > SS > 6cp? I should write an APL for that.)

[shaunika123]

A average shadowdance with subterfuge and legendary boots and baseline energy regen would be something like... -20, -20, +15 to 25 (up to +65 with DS), -20, -20 (+15-20 from finisher after, depending on DS/vigor). Which means an average shadowdance would cost about 60 energy on average? More like 50-55 with haste.

On average, one of those shadowstrikes would proc Energetic Stabbing, which gives back 15 energy at 3/3 - each point or relic grants about 5 energy per shadowdance. A bit less, actually, since with DS you'd sometimes do two finishers during the shadowdance window and only get in 3 shadowstrikes. Total energy usage goes down to ~35-40.

So assuming you pooled to a certain amount of energy before dancing, you'd pool about 3.5-4/haste seconds before dancing again, and each additional point in energetic stabbing reduces the time you have to pool by ~0.5s/haste. (Not totally true, because shadowy techniques is a thing and energetic stabbing can proc more or less often. And with energetic stabbing and boots, you wouldn't have to pool as high since you're using less during the dance.)


TLDR; Energetic stabbing does still have value, but the APL probably needs to not pool as much to get more value out of it.

(Is it better to go Nightstalker with DS for SD > SS > SS > SS > 6cp? I should write an APL for that.)

could it be worth getting DFA if you got the boots and just using your finality evises for that?

[blunts]

Looks like Shadow Dance bar is back guys. I can't post links but here's the quote. /forums/en/wow/topic/20748635409

We’ve been reading all of the feedback throughout beta regarding Shadow Dance and the desire to have it use the “Stealth action bar.” To get right to the point, after an upcoming hotfix, Subtlety Rogues will find that Shadow Dance swaps their main action bar to the alternate bar that is used while in Stealth.

For a bit of context on the late change to our thinking on this: we rarely allow automatic functionality (such as action bar swaps, or macros) to choose between core damage abilities on the player’s behalf. We believe it’s important that the player has to make those choices themselves. The Rogue Stealth bar has always been a minor exception to this, but for many years, the Stealth bar was only active for the single ability you used to open a combat, and was not seen again for the duration of combat (other than with Vanish). The ability to bind your openers to the same buttons as your rotational abilities was a convenience that didn’t affect your use of abilities in combat.

However, the new Shadow Dance (and to a lesser extent Subterfuge), has resulted in some Rogues regularly using openers during combat, as elements of their rotation. In this case, the Stealth bar changes from a minor convenience that lets you place once-per-combat buttons on more convenient keybinds, to actually making regular, mid-combat decisions for you.

That said, after following the ongoing discussions and carefully considering your feedback, we understand the desire for consistency with other abilities that allow Stealth-only actions. Given the gray area that Shadow Dance is in, and the widespread feedback that using the Stealth bar would be more consistent and intuitive, we’ve decided to go ahead and allow Shadow Dance to once again swap your main action bar. This hotfix is scheduled to live with weekly restarts in each region.

A few details for players who use macros to further manage their buttons:
Shadow Dance will be treated similarly to Subterfuge for the purposes of macro conditionals. It will not activate [stealth], but it will activate [stance:2].
If you want to make a macro that mimics the behavior of the main bar (i.e. swapping when you have any of Stealth, Vanish, Subterfuge, or Shadow Dance), you can use the macro conditional [bonusbar:1].

[Deleted]

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748635409

PRAISE THE LORD!

[shaunika123]

just when i was getting used to backstab on a separate bind

i find it funny tho that everyone is so happy about something that should not have happened in the first place :P

dont get me wrong im happy but it's like

"yeah we're terrible at our job but at least we sometimes listen, here's something youve already had for 8 years"

[elfporn]

What a dumbass, we've used stealth abilities rotationally for more than 6 years now. The whole announcement is a load of shit covering up their holes in their original argument.

We should not have had to fight so hard to get it back in the first place.

[kalaratic]

they clearly saw how few ppl are going to main this spec and did this as a last resort effort to get some goodwill. it goes to show whoever was in charge of sub rogue this expac was not only a retard, but also a stubborn one. it really takes being a hard headed, pride-driven person to stick with this until 2 fucking weeks before the expac launches despite massive backlash since day 1.

[Minka]

Yes! I really like that they change back this dump idea they had

[Deleted]

Looks like yes. Might still be better than quiet knife though.

So can I get this right, this is path G? And is your proposed optimal route?

http://imgur.com/a/byEIo

I.E: Bottom path to finality>energetic stabbing>gutripper>shortest path to akaaris>shadownova

[elfporn]

So can I get this right, this is path G? And is your proposed optimal route?

http://imgur.com/a/byEIo

I.E: Bottom path to finality>energetic stabbing>gutripper>shortest path to akaaris>shadownova

This is correct. Get second shuriken next. It's one point; Then ASoul or nova, to your preference.

Personally, i will be outlaw filling sub, so ill be getting ASoul first, the finishing the top.