Not sure which spec to focus on first for artifact weapon!

[Laurix]

So, I've been on a 1.5 year hiatus and am still stuck between going Hunter or Rogue.

I logged on both and the changes to both classes have been mind-boggling. Overall the whole "sky is falling" comments I've read don't seem actually all that bad in game.

I enjoyed MM/SV the most pre-changes, but post-changes I have 0 interest in SV, and very little interest in BM.

Would you guys say Marksman is a pretty safe bet for PvE/PvP? Any reason I should re-consider? Thanks.

EDIT: Also, random, but do other Hunters benefit from the vulnerable debuff I apply, or is that purely just for myself?

[Madh4tter]

MM is pretty much the to go spec for raiding, heard that bm is pretty good on mythic+ dungeons but mm should be viable there as well.
Remeber things might change once legion is out but as of now mm is the best.

[silverstarzs]

Would you guys say Marksman is a pretty safe bet for PvE/PvP?

The 'safe' spec right now (for legion) is pretty clearly BM. It is the clear preferred spec for PvP. It is the clear preferred spec for M+ dungeons. And it is just fine for raids.

The (only) reason to go MM is that there is a likelihood/possibility its top end with high 'player skill' level will be higher in raid. But there is a debate about that and the theory crafters have essentially said you cannot prove this theoretically higher end yet (in logs or sims) - the sims essentially show the two specs as similar on single target and BM better on multi targets but the theory crafters suggest that underrepresents MM's potential.

[3clipse]

The 'safe' spec right now (for legion) is pretty clearly BM. It is the clear preferred spec for PvP. It is the clear preferred spec for M+ dungeons. And it is just fine for raids.

The (only) reason to go MM is that there is a likelihood/possibility its top end with high 'player skill' level will be higher in raid. But there is a debate about that and the theory crafters have essentially said you cannot prove this theoretically higher end yet (in logs or sims) - the sims essentially show the two specs as similar on single target and BM better on multi targets but the theory crafters suggest that underrepresents MM's potential.

It's more that the multi-target results are nuanced. BM will pull ahead on fights with tightly clustered, sustained AoE, because double beast cleave + stomp + the multi-shot proc on Titanstrike will be pretty crazy AoE in that small area. MM will pull ahead on more spread out/cleave fights because the area that Sidewinders and Barrage hit is massive.

[pkm]

It's more that the multi-target results are nuanced. BM will pull ahead on fights with tightly clustered, sustained AoE, because double beast cleave + stomp + the multi-shot proc on Titanstrike will be pretty crazy AoE in that small area. MM will pull ahead on more spread out/cleave fights because the area that Sidewinders and Barrage hit is massive.

How do you double beast cleave? Can it be done on live?

[Deleted]

How do you double beast cleave? Can it be done on live?

No, you need hati for this.

[3clipse]

How do you double beast cleave? Can it be done on live?

No, but once you upgrade Titanstrike enough Hati will also use Beast Cleave, so your small area AoE becomes really strong.

[Laurix]

MM is pretty much the to go spec for raiding, heard that bm is pretty good on mythic+ dungeons but mm should be viable there as well.
Remeber things might change once legion is out but as of now mm is the best.

I really hope this is true.

[silverstarzs]

the multi-target results are nuanced.

yes, agreed. There are a number of "nuanced" difference between the specs - in burst, front vs back loaded damage, movement, and survivability and that is before looking at the legionary effects. All that has to be factored in when trying to answer the question in the other 'best spec for high end raiding' thread - and I personally see no 'proven' answer to that question yet.

But for this OP, who seemed to want a good 'safe' general purpose spec - BM is better general purpose, and equally important - it is rather easier so he will probably play it to a greater fraction of its capability (than MM), and assuming he takes the currently recommended BM talents will be called 'huntard' rather less often than with the MM talents. And he will be doing decent damage. I would suggest it is pretty clear (ATM, might well change) that BM is the better spec for the general hunter who wants to do a bit of PvP, a bit of Dungeons and perhaps Hc raiding.

[Deleted]

The BM artifact perks are quite op, especially when Hati starts benefiting from bestial wrath,kill command and cleave.

[Azortharion]

The 'safe' spec right now (for legion) is pretty clearly BM. It is the clear preferred spec for PvP. It is the clear preferred spec for M+ dungeons. And it is just fine for raids.

The (only) reason to go MM is that there is a likelihood/possibility its top end with high 'player skill' level will be higher in raid. But there is a debate about that and the theory crafters have essentially said you cannot prove this theoretically higher end yet (in logs or sims) - the sims essentially show the two specs as similar on single target and BM better on multi targets but the theory crafters suggest that underrepresents MM's potential.

Well, except the part where Marksmanship is like 10% ahead of BM single-target when entering raids.

[Zenfoldor]

Well, except the part where Marksmanship is like 10% ahead of BM single-target when entering raids.

This guys knows what he's talking about.

[Sim]

Well, except the part where Marksmanship is like 10% ahead of BM single-target when entering raids.

Using what metric is that? Because the first raid is going to be a huge difference between players. To say flat out that MM will be 10% ahead is reaching pretty hard.

Nobody is going to be at the same Artifact Level, Gear Level etc. MM and BM are about the same within 5-6k dps until you throw in the paragon levels. That is something nobody is going to be close too within the first raid release.

[PBitt]

It all depends on how you play and what your endgame goals are. MM is presumably the strongest raid spec so if raiding is your main priority it's your best option to start there, especially if you're going into Mythic raiding. BM is looking to be superior in Mythic + dungeons so if that is your primary endgame goal you will want to choose BM first. SV is definitely not crappy but it's a little more difficult than most melee specs and doesn't quite bring as much to the raid, particularly in a game already flooded with melee dps specs.

It's possible things could change before Legion goes live but as it stands MM is a safe bet but BM is not a bad option either. It won't be very difficult to get a second artifact caught up to 80% or so once you hit max level.

[tyrindor]

Personally, I don't really care if MM is slightly better single target. Rarely does that matter in the grand scheme, patchwerk-type fights are few and far between.

BM seems better at everything else, especially after artifacts are leveled. BM soloablity is also far better than MM, which is extremely helpful at the start of an expansion. We'll be doing things out in the world every day this time around, and the ability to just misdirect barrage onto a pet and cleave down packs of 10+ mobs is useful. We can also do our full rotation on the move, so any movement heavy fight I could see BM taking a slight lead even on single target.

Unless your a raider that is pushing for top 50 or something, BM is going to be the go to spec for a "universal" type play style in my honest opinion.

[Bladeweaver]

looking forward to Azortharion's response (grabs popcorn)

[Nefarious Tea]

looking forward to Azortharion's response (grabs popcorn)

I don't know how it's such a hard concept. If a person has equal skill at playing both Marks and BM, they will do 10% more damage as Marks.

Also, Survival gets no love

[3clipse]

Personally, I don't really care if MM is slightly better single target. Rarely does that matter in the grand scheme, patchwerk-type fights are few and far between.

BM seems better at everything else, especially after artifacts are leveled. BM soloablity is also far better than MM, which is extremely helpful at the start of an expansion. We'll be doing things out in the world every day this time around, and the ability to just misdirect barrage onto a pet and cleave down packs of 10+ mobs is useful. We can also do our full rotation on the move, so any movement heavy fight I could see BM taking a slight lead even on single target.

Unless your a raider that is pushing for top 50 or something, BM is going to be the go to spec for a "universal" type play style in my honest opinion.

I think MM's AoE is actually more useful (not better, but more easily applied for gain) in a raid context. Usually during a boss fight you won't be AoEing a tightly clustered pack, you'll be trying to passively cleave adds that are more spread or that you want to kill without dropping single target damage on the boss. BM's AoE isn't passive, you lose single target DPS to do it, and BM's AoE radius is very small compared to Barrage and Sidewinders, which will hit mobs in orbit around Jupiter. Also pet travel time starts to become a factor if you're switching targets frequently, which is the biggest turn off for me personally.

For soloability I actually disagree completely - BM lost Adaptation and their improved ability to heal, so now MM pets are just as good at tanking (and MM has a skill that summons an entire other pet that can taunt for you). MM also doesn't lose nearly as much damage as BM by using a Tenacity pet, so it's a much more viable option for soloing things. I think BM got totally screwed for soloing, frankly, which is a shame, because I quite liked MoP/WoD era superpets.

Movement heavy fights, yes, BM has an advantage there no question. I think how many of those there are in each tier will really be the deciding factor of which spec performs better.

[Jimusmc]

seems more and more like MM will be the way to go.

guess ill spec black arrow for the tank while im leveling as MM.

[Deleted]

Pets doesn't seem to be needed as much in legion raiding so MM might be the way to go.