Question about Deeper Stratagem and Alacrity.

[Memnok]

Deeper stratagem and Alacrity seem to be the best choices raid wise in their respective tiers. Since 5 Cps is a guaranteed stack of alacrity should I use my finishers at 5 if I land on 5 CPs. The reason I ask is this seems like it would build your stacks quite a bit faster.

[marinara42]

Deeper stratagem and Alacrity seem to be the best choices raid wise in their respective tiers. Since 5 Cps is a guaranteed stack of alacrity should I use my finishers at 5 if I land on 5 CPs. The reason I ask is this seems like it would build your stacks quite a bit faster.

Well, using saber slash is definitely a no at 5 combo points just because of the chance of a wasted point if you get a proc, but I'm not sure about using pistol shot. I would assume it'd be better to get to six, but that's a guess.

[Spriestlawl]

Well, for Outlaw Alacrity is the best talent basically. Killing spree is typically a DPS loss with the way RtB is overall, and Cannonball Barrage can be really useful at certain fight increments. For the life of me I can't find my graphic I made for it though :/ DS is much better because of the contribution to Run Through which is roughly 45-50% of our dmg. Vigor isn't really needed because we're rarely energy starved, and if we are its not for long.

I'm not entirely sure you're tlaking about Outlaw so looking at the other specs.. Assassination competes with Agonizing and Exsang which are way better in that tier. Exsan being super strong through T19M. DS is typically picked there as well.

For Sub though.. there's a 123sub spec that fits REALLY well, lots of really good energy regen and makes the spec super smooth. I'm not sure if it's still the top 110 spec, but it's up there. I'm pretty sure premed is just flat out better as it gets more CP, which means more finishers, which means faster SD/Vanish/etc. Enveloping would be cool but it's not enough I don't believe in it's current iteration.

[shaunika123]

Well, for Outlaw Alacrity is the best talent basically. Killing spree is typically a DPS loss with the way RtB is overall, and Cannonball Barrage can be really useful at certain fight increments. For the life of me I can't find my graphic I made for it though :/ DS is much better because of the contribution to Run Through which is roughly 45-50% of our dmg. Vigor isn't really needed because we're rarely energy starved, and if we are its not for long.

I'm not entirely sure you're tlaking about Outlaw so looking at the other specs.. Assassination competes with Agonizing and Exsang which are way better in that tier. Exsan being super strong through T19M. DS is typically picked there as well.

For Sub though.. there's a 123sub spec that fits REALLY well, lots of really good energy regen and makes the spec super smooth. I'm not sure if it's still the top 110 spec, but it's up there. I'm pretty sure premed is just flat out better as it gets more CP, which means more finishers, which means faster SD/Vanish/etc. Enveloping would be cool but it's not enough I don't believe in it's current iteration.

KS is pretty good tho if all you roll is shark+TB hehe

for sub 1210011 will be the best once you get finality+energetic stabbing and especially once you get the legendary boots

[kindath]

I don't know what spec you're talking about, but with Deeper Stratagem you should always be using finishers at 5-6 combo points regardless of if you're using alacrity or not. If you can get the 6th point without wasting combo points or energy, do it (Garrote, hemo, pistol shot proc, shadowy techniques proc) - otherwise use a finisher at 5 points.

With Alacrity, if you use a finisher at 6 points, you have a 100% chance to get a stack of alacrity, plus a 20% chance to get a second stack.

[Memnok]

Sorry after I reread my post I see it was not very clear. This is for Outlaw Spec. I have taken Deeper Stratagem and Alacrity, I have been using my finishers @ 5 points to build up Alacrity stacks faster. I was unaware that using a finisher @ 6 points gave a 20% chance at gaining 2 stacks of Alacrity. I think that being the case I'm just going to use finishers at 5 or 6 points whatever I land on.

[Spriestlawl]

... I'm just going to use finishers at 5 or 6 points whatever I land on.

This is exactly what you need to do in general right now

[elfporn]

Can someone please come up with a dmg loss comparison vs using finisher at 5 or 6cp as compared to losing 1-2 cp.

I'm leaning towards 6cp always. CP overflow is ridiculous with sub/outlaw and is going to happen. Sub has multiple benefits from using 6cp every time(alacrity, relentless strikes), and outlaw benefits from the extra chance for an alacrity stack.

With how ubiquitous combo points are in legion, the 5cp finisher vs chance to lose a procced cp and guaranteed extra dmg+chance to proc per CP based stuff is something we really should find out.

[kindath]

225,394 Default Swordmaster
224,651 6CP Only Swordmaster

226,011 Default Quick Draw
224,916 6CP Only Quick Draw

229,346 Default Ghostly Strike
227,140 6CP Only Ghostly Strike

(These are with the reroll the bones until any 2+ rotation)

So basically you lose almost nothing by saber slashing at 5CP, but it isn't better than finishing at 5.

[Spriestlawl]

Can someone please come up with a dmg loss comparison vs using finisher at 5 or 6cp as compared to losing 1-2 cp.

I'm leaning towards 6cp always. CP overflow is ridiculous with sub/outlaw and is going to happen. Sub has multiple benefits from using 6cp every time(alacrity, relentless strikes), and outlaw benefits from the extra chance for an alacrity stack.

With how ubiquitous combo points are in legion, the 5cp finisher vs chance to lose a procced cp and guaranteed extra dmg+chance to proc per CP based stuff is something we really should find out.

As kindath noted, it's always a DPS loss.

[elfporn]

As kindath noted, it's always a DPS loss.

For outlaw. And it still doesnt make sense.

[kindath]

For outlaw. And it still doesnt make sense.

Why not? The extra procs on a 6 point finisher just let that 6 point scale as well as the first 5. Run through is significantly more damage than saber slash (and significantly more damage per energy) and RtB increases the damage of saber slashes and/or lets you do more run throughs.

That said, the two are fairly close, to the point where during AR it's probably better to just fill every GCD than wait even a little bit to see if sword slash proc'd and you should use a finisher.

[elfporn]

Why not? The extra procs on a 6 point finisher just let that 6 point scale as well as the first 5. Run through is significantly more damage than saber slash (and significantly more damage per energy) and RtB increases the damage of saber slashes and/or lets you do more run throughs.

That said, the two are fairly close, to the point where during AR it's probably better to just fill every GCD than wait even a little bit to see if sword slash proc'd and you should use a finisher.

I think it's not as black and white as only 6cp.

Perhaps conditionals based on what RTB buffs you have.

Use 6 only for SiW, grand melee, true bearing, buried treasure, and maybe jolly roger

Use 5+ if you have broadsides, broadsides+JR, broadsides+GM, or broadsides+BT

Use 6 only for 3+.

So a mix based on what you get and potential waste, which is likely what most people are doing intuitively already

[Spriestlawl]

I think it's not as black and white as only 6cp.

Perhaps conditionals based on what RTB buffs you have.

Use 6 only for SiW, grand melee, true bearing, buried treasure, and maybe jolly roger

Use 5+ if you have broadsides, broadsides+JR, broadsides+GM, or broadsides+BT

Use 6 only for 3+.

So a mix based on what you get and potential waste, which is likely what most people are doing intuitively already

I'm not sure what you're struggling with, you listed 5 of the 6 RtB buffs to only use 6 on negating only broadsides. You do realize that using RT at only 6cp will cause you to waste a significant portion of CP and GCDs. Run through is a considerable portion of our overall damage and the scaling whether 5 or 6 is the same. Unless you have a guarantee of not wasting CP, Run through at 5. If you'd like to run sims to show that with X buff it's better specifically to waste the CP, by all means feel free to share that. In general though, it's always worse DPS to SS at 5CP, wasting a CP, and then RT. It makes plenty sense..

[elfporn]

I'm not sure what you're struggling with, you listed 5 of the 6 RtB buffs to only use 6 on negating only broadsides. You do realize that using RT at only 6cp will cause you to waste a significant portion of CP and GCDs. Run through is a considerable portion of our overall damage and the scaling whether 5 or 6 is the same. Unless you have a guarantee of not wasting CP, Run through at 5. If you'd like to run sims to show that with X buff it's better specifically to waste the CP, by all means feel free to share that. In general though, it's always worse DPS to SS at 5CP, wasting a CP, and then RT. It makes plenty sense..

Should i apologize trying to figure out a way to make the most of deeper strat?

If you were using vigor would you do the same with 4 combo points? RT at 4 instead of 5 because you have a chance to waste a combo point. It's the same situation, same action recommended?

DPE for 5/6 combo points is not the same. Thus it makes sense to almost always use 6. I suggested the conditionals i did in order to take into account the extra cp generation from SS making it more valuable to use RT at 5(or 6).

When i get off work ill see about setting up a sim with the more complicated cp usage.

Being dismissive because it's always been a certain way, as if nothing has changed in legion

[Spriestlawl]

Should i apologize trying to figure out a way to make the most of deeper strat?

If you were using vigor would you do the same with 4 combo points? RT at 4 instead of 5 because you have a chance to waste a combo point. It's the same situation, same action recommended?

DPE for 5/6 combo points is not the same. Thus it makes sense to almost always use 6. I suggested the conditionals i did in order to take into account the extra cp generation from SS making it more valuable to use RT at 5(or 6).

When i get off work ill see about setting up a sim with the more complicated cp usage.

Being dismissive because it's always been a certain way, as if nothing has changed in legion

No, not at all because a "chance" to waste a combo point isn't a guaranteed wasted CP. If you RT at only 6 and SS at every 5 you're guaranteed to waste a significant amount of CP. Why would vigor have any impact on on RT at 4 cp? How would you waste a CP there?

DPS for 5/6 cp needs to also account for the damage loss of a wasted CP. I'm not being dismissive because it's always been a certain way, I'm being dismissive when you saw the overall results and then shrugged them off saying they weren't right.

[elfporn]

No, not at all because a "chance" to waste a combo point isn't a guaranteed wasted CP. If you RT at only 6 and SS at every 5 you're guaranteed to waste a significant amount of CP. Why would vigor have any impact on on RT at 4 cp? How would you waste a CP there?

DPS for 5/6 cp needs to also account for the damage loss of a wasted CP. I'm not being dismissive because it's always been a certain way, I'm being dismissive when you saw the overall results and then shrugged them off saying they weren't right.

No the results were correct, i'm not disputing that, i'm looking for a more accurate sim.

Always 6cp isn't going to work, particularly when you have broadsides up - the chance for a second SS means you can potentially proc 4cp on a single button press, that can indeed be a huge waste. But without broadsides, sitting at 5cp, it's risking the loss of 1cp instead of 4

Also, i should lump jolly roger in with broadsides.

So a more accurate CP gen/spend model for RTB in the sims is what i really want.

If broadsides and/or jolly roger == false then use RT if CP == 6, else use RT if CP >= 5

[marinara42]

No the results were correct, i'm not disputing that, i'm looking for a more accurate sim.

Always 6cp isn't going to work, particularly when you have broadsides up - the chance for a second SS means you can potentially proc 4cp on a single button press, that can indeed be a huge waste. But without broadsides, sitting at 5cp, it's risking the loss of 1cp instead of 4

Also, i should lump jolly roger in with broadsides.

So a more accurate CP gen/spend model for RTB in the sims is what i really want.

If broadsides and/or jolly roger == false then use RT if CP == 6, else use RT if CP >= 5

This has been bugging me as well, especially when taking Anticipation in combination with DFA. Do I finish at 7 and have 3 points refunded or do I SS again and risk wasting a proc to have 4 points refunded via DFA? Or, should I just use DFA on CD no matter how many points I have? As you said, broadsides further complicates this situation.

[Spriestlawl]

Sim 1 .. >=5CP, RT

311k
(28 overflow CP)
(106 RT)

Sim 2 .. >=5CP (with either Broadsides or Jolly Roger), RT else RT at 6CP

309.5k
(25 overflow CP)
(110 RT)

Sim 3 .. >=5Cp (with broadsides), RT else RT at 6CP

309.4k
(36 overflow CP)
(102 RT)
Sim 4 .. >=5CP (with Jolly Roger), RT else RT at 6CP

308.7k
(37 overflow CP)
(104 RT)

I haven't really bothered with Anticipation/DfA yet.. anything else though?

Edit: added CP overflow and RT approx. cast counts (avg obviously over total number of iterations)

[elfporn]

Damn, you whipped that out pretty fast.

So it's close, very close.

Well, now I don't feel too bad about being contrary. Also, it's interesting that sim 2 shows less overflow and more RT casts, but less dps then sim 1, even if by 1.5k.