Legion - Subtlety discussion

[kindath]

So can I get this right, this is path G? And is your proposed optimal route?

http://imgur.com/a/byEIo

I.E: Bottom path to finality>energetic stabbing>gutripper>shortest path to akaaris>shadownova

Yep - but 'optimal' is probably a strong word here. It's the path that gets you the most power in the shortest amount of time for progression, but you pay for it later.

Also you could arguably go for Shadow Nova after Gutripper if you need more aoe for mythic+ dungeons.

[Spriestlawl]

This is correct. Get second shuriken next. It's one point; Then ASoul or nova, to your preference.

Personally, i will be outlaw filling sub, so ill be getting ASoul first, the finishing the top.

You guys do realize that going path G will require something like 600,000 Artifact power over say 100,000 going the top route. It's VERY unlikely you'll be able to go the long route and still attain both goldens without some SERIOUS farming.

What I'm getting at.. picking the highest dps route is not efficient given the amount of AP you'll actually be able to realistically farm.

[kindath]

You guys do realize that going path G will require something like 600,000 Artifact power over say 100,000 going the top route. It's VERY unlikely you'll be able to go the long route and still attain both goldens without some SERIOUS farming.

What I'm getting at.. picking the highest dps route is not efficient given the amount of AP you'll actually be able to realistically farm.

That's exactly why it's the most efficient route. The less artifact power you are able to get, the further ahead that route is. It's not all about the goldens.

[Spriestlawl]

That's exactly why it's the most efficient route. The less artifact power you are able to get, the further ahead that route is. It's not all about the goldens.

mobile isn't working to edit. will edit properly when at desktop

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mobile is not working for dick...

Actually, no I disagree. Realistically understanding how much AP you can accumulate matters to find efficiency. In fact, if you know for sure you can manage say 465k AP, then Path A is the best. If you know you can manage 1.35M AP total by the end of the next week that affirms Path A is indeed the best. However, if you know you'll only be able to get say.. 50k, Path E wins out. I'm not sure you're measuring efficiency the same as me, but it's a balance of how much ap you'll be able to accumulate and the best way to maximize that into dps. Realistically 2 goldens will likely be the limit, as such the path to the fastest goldens is also the most dps, and such Path A wins out. Also, somehow you manage to lose dps as you progress into traits 26-29? in like 3 paths... is that a typo?

[elfporn]

I'm unconcerned, i'll be switching to sub later in the tier, outlaw will be first for me. With the artifact knowledge AP requirements will go down significantly by the time i spend it.

[kindath]

Actually, no I disagree. Realistically understanding how much AP you can accumulate matters to find efficiency. In fact, if you know for sure you can manage say 465k AP, then Path A is the best. If you know you can manage 1.35M AP total by the end of the next week that affirms Path A is indeed the best. However, if you know you'll only be able to get say.. 50k, Path E wins out. I'm not sure you're measuring efficiency the same as me, but it's a balance of how much ap you'll be able to accumulate and the best way to maximize that into dps.

Well, this is why I graphed out the whole path, to get more information on where different paths are strong, where the spikes are, where the plateaus are, what the overall curve is like. If you want to pick an arbitrary point and see what's best at that point, be my guest. If you actually have information on what artifact point range we'll be near when we're doing progression, that would be very helpful to everyone trying to choose the best path.

Path G or whatever gets you the highest possible curve up to 18 but then gets nothing more until 26. This may be good for progression - or it may not matter at all. It depends on how many artifact traits we'll have unlocked by the time we're doing progression.

Realistically 2 goldens will likely be the limit,

Realistically, 34 artifact traits + 20 additional artifact traits is the limit, since you're working on your artifact for the entire expansion.

as such the path to the fastest goldens is also the most dps, and such Path A wins out.

It's NOT though, that's what I'm saying. There's too much junk on the path to getting all the Goldens that you get more DPS per unit time, especially early on (which matters for progression), along the bottom route.

Believe me, I also thought the top path would be better overall until I simmed it all out.

Also, somehow you manage to lose dps as you progress into traits 26-29? in like 3 paths... is that a typo?

Yeah, I lowered the margin of error on some of the later sims to get the data out faster and then copied it across to the other paths that had the same build at that point. Should be no change in DPS, since that's when you're going through catlike reflexes - updated it so they show the same value.

[Spriestlawl]

If you actually have information on what artifact point range we'll be near when we're doing progression, that would be very helpful to everyone trying to choose the best path.

25ish traits is likely going to be the limit. Some might exceed that but that's what it feels like from a "grind till your eyes bleed" standpoint. Which puts Path A up..

And yah like I said, it looks like we're just of different opinions with regards to "efficiency" which is fine.....

All that being said, the real discussion should focus back on Shadow Dance Bar is back

I'll repeat

Shadow Dance Bar is back

[Fenicks]

Shadow Dance Bar is back

Looks like it's time to bust out the champagne bottles, gentlemen.

I don't normally support forum QQ, but for this issue it was definitely warranted and I'm glad Blizzard finally caved in.

[bloodmoth13]

Looks like it's time to bust out the champagne bottles, gentlemen.

I don't normally support forum QQ, but for this issue it was definitely warranted and I'm glad Blizzard finally caved in.

I actually have to agree.

I understand their reasoning and i agree with it in many ways, but the issue is that shadowstrike WAS backstab with a damage boost and bonus effect, its use case is identical, the only difference was whether the buff was up, it would be like making saber slash only usable during roll the bones, or needing a different button for mind blast during void form.

I advocated either bringing it back or giving a reason to have shadow strike bound to a key outside of shadow dance.

At any rate, this was the right decision and im glad bliz is listening!

[shaunika123]

25ish traits is likely going to be the limit. Some might exceed that but that's what it feels like from a "grind till your eyes bleed" standpoint. Which puts Path A up..

And yah like I said, it looks like we're just of different opinions with regards to "efficiency" which is fine.....

All that being said, the real discussion should focus back on Shadow Dance Bar is back

I'll repeat

Shadow Dance Bar is back

yes if you can get to 25 exactly then path A is the best

however path G is going to be ahead most of the time both before and after that point. and even when it's bad, it's less behind than path A is behind it at it's worst

but it all boils down to how far can u get before mythic opens

because yes if you get to 25 then path A is best, but 26 right after is already path G aheadand then it doesnt fall back till 29 and then on 33 they equalize

but "gold is best" by default is wrong, shadow nova aint that good, 3 points into the 3 best traits is actually more dps than shadow nova in ST

[Spriestlawl]

yes if you can get to 25 exactly then path A is the best

however path G is going to be ahead most of the time both before and after that point. and even when it's bad, it's less behind than path A is behind it at it's worst

Actually, you're wrong. It falls behind again at 29 and stays behind when the third golden is picked up. It's going to come down to how much we can feasibly farm in the timeline we have.

edit: I'd argue it's only bad pre-1st golden, but that's not really a benchmark. Everything from 1st to 2nd is going to be the grey area with past 2nd being damn near pitch black on us being able to predict how far we'll go.

[Notter]

Can't wait to try out subtlety after reset.

So far i've avoided subtlety because i just felt... awkward.
but now that we can move symbols of death and Shadow Strike to stealth bar... maybe controlling sub would feel better.

[RobertoCarlos]

I'm still not sold on sub and the nerf to shadowstrike range doesnt help

[shaunika123]

I'm still not sold on sub and the nerf to shadowstrike range doesnt help

just play whichever spec you want they appear to be so close to each other atm that it almost makes no difference

[Spriestlawl]

just play whichever spec you want they appear to be so close to each other atm that it almost makes no difference

We should really have a thread that says this and sticky it @shaunika123 it seems we constantly have to keep saying it lol.

[minteK917]

I'm still not sold on sub and the nerf to shadowstrike range doesnt help

It changes nothing, before you just never had to use shadow step ever. Hell before the nerf i only used shadow step to run away to my healer in pvp lol. 15 yard is still enough for me to chase someone on a flying mount until they die/i run out of shadow dances.

[Reposed]

Can Mages and Druids beat Rogues?

I beat them 99% of the time on my lock (even after Aff's nerf), and now that Shadowstrike's range has been lowered to almost nothing, I haven't lost to a Rogue 1v1 yet on my Mage.

[Kazzai]

All these people praising the shadowdance bar and jumping onto sub again and here's me always using 2buttons and thinking sub is still clunky

[Spriestlawl]

All these people praising the shadowdance bar and jumping onto sub again and here's me always using 2buttons and thinking sub is still clunky

SoD makes it feel clunky to me .. still more enjoyable than Sin though, by a mile (or 50)

[Deleted]

due to the recent changes to the shadowdancebar does this mean stance macros are back in?

i dont get these conditionals right...

[stance:2] is Stealth Subterfuge Vanish and Dance?
[Bonusbar:1] is only to show the right tooltip between Backstab and Shadowstrike?