Kayn or Altruis

[OrcsRLame]

I don't exactly disagree with what Kayn says, but he just comes off as the most closed minded retard. I don't think he's the sort of person that should be making decisions.

[Lady Dragonheart]

oh but I'm hurt, every 3 replies I receive. of course it doesn't pose anything proper, after all you are a truest intellectualist. Yes, indeed, Kayn is totally brainless, probably because of loyalty, it makes people so very much dull!

Which is true, he is dull and boring as a character, which is very unattractive.

woah what a thinking capabilities you exercise! good choice, Altruis, this guy would ignore your orders and prove himself strong and independent, unlike those order obeying dogs! Sometimes I forget that Illidari is a tumblr headquarters and mistake it for bunch of demon killers. You must excuse me, rarely reality warps me out.

and to think that some foolish people believe that rebelling is easy, following orders you sometimes disagree with is difficult. foolish! everybody knows that being a rebel is a thing!

that sass and class, it requires its own sambadrome!

If I'm going to have a commander in the field, I want one that's smart enough to make the right choice instead of following an order regardless of the situation. A minion is there to follow orders, commanders need to think and react to situations as they change making decisions properly when they are there to be made. So, yes, Altruis does suit that position capably well, making him the more attractive candidate as my potential second-in-command.

[Deleted]

Which is true, he is dull and boring as a character, which is very unattractive.




If I'm going to have a commander in the field, I want one that's smart enough to make the right choice instead of following an order regardless of the situation. A minion is there to follow orders, commanders need to think and react to situations as they change making decisions properly when they are there to be made. So, yes, Altruis does suit that position capably well, making him the more attractive candidate as my potential second-in-command.

completely unattractive. one hundred percent

and Kayn can't adapt I imagine. you tell him to kill someone but it happens that this person is already dead so he seeks mean to revive mentioned x only to score the kill. Loyalty and obeying orders make people mindless!

[OrcsRLame]

Then you are lucky that he is not going to be making decisions. You are.

A second in command is called, well, 'second in command' for a reason. Your leader can't be there to hold your hand 100% of the time. That's unrealistic and naive.

[Katchii]

completely unattractive. one hundred percent

and Kayn can't adapt I imagine. you tell him to kill someone but it happens that this person is already dead so he seeks mean to revive mentioned x only to score the kill. Loyalty and obeying orders make people mindless!

I'd rather have this than someone who might betray me and my order because he disagreed with what the order was. Not saying this is everything, but I think a lot of people are forgetting that Altruis went out and actively pursued and killed Demon Hunters, and would have killed Illidan had he had the chance (both the strategic chance and the skill to pull it off) when he didn't like where things were going. I know for game play reason he probably won't do that again, but in a normal world...I would not be able to trust someone who has already done that, and has fervently spoken about the fact that he would do it again. In most, if not all, armed forces in the world today any person who did that would be charged with treason and put to death. I see no reason why this would/ should not be true here as well.

[Deleted]

I'd rather have this than someone who might betray me and my order because he disagreed with what the order was. Not saying this is everything, but I think a lot of people are forgetting that Altruis went out and actively pursued and killed Demon Hunters, and would have killed Illidan had he had the chance (both the strategic chance and the skill to pull it off) when he didn't like where things were going. I know for game play reason he probably won't do that again, but in a normal world...I would not be able to trust someone who has already done that, and has fervently spoken about the fact that he would do it again. In most, if not all, armed forces in the world today any person who did that would be charged with treason and put to death. I see no reason why this would/ should not be true here as well.

but-but-but I suggest to read my other posts here. just for the sake of clarity

[Shoat]

I do not like the idea of fanaticism and extreme loyalty, very much a fan of having a moral compass - look at the record of good-guys-turning-bad in the warcraft universe.
Yes, kayn is a really good commander, but the danger of becoming the bad guy is a real thing to consider RP-wise (of course gameplay-wise we know it doesn't fucking matter anyway).
And despite still being the enemy of the legion, illidan did undeniably become a bad guy - he chose to be come the enemy of outland and azeroth.
We, the players, didn't fight illidan in outland for shits and giggles, he and his subordinates were just as bad for the denizens of outland as the legion presence there and he made no attempt at diplomacy ("Oops, sorry for brutally conquering this place with my giant army of demons, naga and blood mages, how about I stop that and we instead work together against the legion from now?") or at peacefully building his powerbase and cooperating with the locals to begin with.
Altruis saw that, felt wrong, left the illidari, and then ended up being involved in quests to fight the illidari whom at the time were the bad guys. And don't forget that WE were the ones who actively went out of our way and pursued the goal of murdering varedis - quest npcs are always just assisting us in such things.

If I, with the knowledge I have, were to choose, I'd actually prefer a second-in-command who would be willing to tell when we're no longer on a justifyable path towards our goal. That's very important in this world of big bad guys who used to be good but went too far.

...Though it'd obviously be better to resolve their issues like grownups and keep both around instead of just arbitrarily choosing one and having the other run away like a shunned teenage girl...

[Heladys]

Altruis. I don't need bootlickers I need people who think.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Altruis. I don't need bootlickers I need people who think.

Damn straight. To be blunt.

[ralphie]

Kayn. Did you honestly believe I would trust the future to some night elf mongrel?

[Draenox]

I went with Kayn, that final comment he made during the intro rang true with me in a lot of ways "You believe in nothing and trust no one, you are a leader without followers Altruis". Only a few minutes earlier Maiev showed how important it is to be able to trust people in times of need.

[Katchii]

but-but-but I suggest to read my other posts here. just for the sake of clarity

I did...and the sarcasm is strong with this one, lol

Doesn't really change my point though, the words you used (and I quoted) just served to give my post context. Sorry if I twisted them to mean something you didn't want them or mean them to.

[Deleted]

I did...and the sarcasm is strong with this one, lol

Doesn't really change my point though, the words you used (and I quoted) just served to give my post context. Sorry if I twisted them to mean something you didn't want them or mean them to.

I agree, Kayn is golden. Kayn the good boy!

[Deleted]

Altruis

Imagine if arthas on his northrend campaign had altruis with him, altruis would probably have tried to point out to arthas that he was going too far.
now imagine the same situation with kayn, he would tell arthas to take frostmourn.

This is why it is important to have someone to tell you when you are going too far, even though arthas his campaign looked legit, he managed to serve those he fought and kayn would only have furthered this.

The same could happen to our PC, and is on the verge of what was happening to the illidari in BC.

[Kaiede]

Also Altruis wasting time doubting the Wardens shows his true colors. He doesn't trust anybody or anything, even when it would make no sense for Maiev to want us to die after going through the effort of freeing us. There's no wisdom in distrusting everyone, it's just as foolish as trusting everyone.

There is also value in regarding the open hand of the one who hunted your kind and imprisoned them with some level of skepticism. I would be somewhat concerned about how the Wardens would potentially change their stance the moment the Legion seemed to be brought under control on Azeroth. Desperation may have led Maiev to let the genie out of the bottle, but will she be content to let it stay out? Even as she lets the PC free, she comments about how dangerous she believes the Illidari and Demon Hunters to be.

I actually think it's good that there isn't any obvious answer here. Kayn is loyal, and a believer in the cause, and that's worth something. Altruis is a free-thinker, can build bridges and recruit allies that otherwise would reject the Illidari, and that's worth something.

Tbh for anyone who has done the campaign it is clear that your real second in command is neither Kayn nor Altruis. Your second is Malevolence.

Heh, she does do quite a bit of heavy lifting, doesn't she? Honestly, the one that left the biggest impression on me was Kor'vas, because of her statements during the initial recruitment of champions in the class hall. There's something about someone who wants to get down to business, and isn't afraid of saying they are being left out of the work to be done that appeals to me.

[troqu]

Honestly even though I like Altruis and I can see an argument even for my character to pick Altruis over Kayn (e.g. he may also have had second thoughts about Illidan using souls to power the portals to Legion worlds, he just wasn't ready to leave) I cannot think that as a leader of the Illidari I can make that choice. If I pick Kayn, nothing changes for anyone; Altruis was a loner (how did he even get imprisoned anyway?) while Kayn was a part of the group. Picking Altruis over Kayn means sending Kayn to exile outside the Illidari. How do I get to make that choice not just for me, but also for Kayn, for Allari, for Jace and Kor'vas, for Belath and Asha. Also I do not agree that Kayn places Illidan first. Kayn places the Illidari first. His loyalty doesn't seem to be to Illidan first but rather to his group.

To be perfectly fair, Kayn exiles himself like a bratty child. Altruis also leaves if not chosen, but everything about him leaving in that situation is in line with his character up to this point.

Again I choose Akama over Shade of Akama because they both don't deserve to be my second in command. Allari or Asha would be better choices imo.

Altruis

Imagine if arthas on his northrend campaign had altruis with him, altruis would probably have tried to point out to arthas that he was going too far.
now imagine the same situation with kayn, he would tell arthas to take frostmourn.

This is why it is important to have someone to tell you when you are going too far, even though arthas his campaign looked legit, he managed to serve those he fought and kayn would only have furthered this.

The same could happen to our PC, and is on the verge of what was happening to the illidari in BC.

Now let's be fair. Arthas had Muradin Bronzebeard telling him to leave off of Frostmorne and Arthas not only ignored him, but as far as he could tell, let the spirits of the sword SACRIFICE him to release it so Arthas could wield the thing. Altruis wouldn't have fared any better in that.

edit: Had my dwarves mixed up

[UrosM]

Now let's be fair. Arthas had Muradin Bronzebeard telling him to leave off of Frostmorne and Arthas not only ignored him, but as far as he could tell, let the spirits of the sword SACRIFICE him to release it so Arthas could wield the thing. Altruis wouldn't have fared any better in that.

edit: Had my dwarves mixed up

To be honest, Muradin and Altruis can't be compared. Altruis did defect for the good cause, and even tho he is abandoning his service to Illidan, he is doing some radical moves to stop the ongoing threat Illidari are becomming by slaying the corrupted DHs. Only thing that is kind of silly is that lore-wise Altruis didn't defeat Varedis, because either the book made him too much powerful for Altruis or more likely that Altruis knew he would have been attacked way before he would even come near Varedis.. so Altruis rather sends champions/players to do it, which is kind of bad, he could have at least joined at one point... Also why isn't Altruis there assisting Akama on the siege of Black Temple? that is the only major thing I can lay down there as a question... So, I don't think Altruis would have advised Arthas to lay down Frostmourne, rather upright oppose him and defeat him, probably in the means of plotting against him (Arthas is pretty powerful to encounter), because Altruis would probably sense the threat he could become, and the corruption that moves him towards becoming the thing he went to destroy.

- - - Updated - - -

The interesting thing none mentioned (or I didn't see it being mentioned) is that for someone who came to Illidan's service like Altruis for revenging his loss to the Legion, after seing that his leader is becomming consumed with the fel he is handling (which he is) didn't just leave and said 'alright that is it, they are going insane', but he started plotting against the Illidari (and he didn't have any revengeful motives), which MEANS, or at least indicates potentially, that Altruis actually sees that Illidari are defecting in a way of becoming a Legion's tool on Azeroth (even with the feats of strength Illidan accomplished) and actually realises they do need to be put down, like rabid dogs (if there is no cure ofc)... Also, Illidan went to Northrend because he couldn't fight the basic mind control Kil'Jaden was doing to him, do you really think that 'future of elite Azeroth's first line of defence against Legion' should be led by that individual. It might be that every DH that would come to that much power that Illidan did couldn't be too much storng-willed to resist the Legion's most powerful commanders, because of course Legion will use their most powerful possesion and twisting on the most prominent ones they are trying to succumb to their will (or the most threatning).

So, it is very doubtful if anyone else was in Illidan's place could he be that strong minded to resist the Legion, I say yes, but ONLY IF he had less of the demonic presence/soul in him, BUT since the DH's strength to fight/defeat the demon comes from that same soul it is like a paradigm, the more power the leader posseses (the more world's he consumes to increase his power) the more chances he has to defeat the Legion, I say NO! I think that is EXACTLY what Legion wants, because the more of the demon one becomes the easier for them will it be to bend him to their will.

So basically I will conclude that the best solution would be that the Illidari are not led by one individual, rather that leadership is organized and kept as a solid executive order, without the need of a powerlusting dictator, the power to defeat the Legion is in numbers of less 'demonized' hunters, not in 1/2/3 highly 'demonized' individuals, because that bears a great risk of corruption and manipulation performed by the Legion.

[JadedTauren]

Altruis betrayed the illidari. Kayn all the way.

[UrosM]

The point here is also that this duality is not only about this little choice, this is a big ethical dilema and big metaphore of Blizzard towards concept of bliblical themes (I found a lot of close religious symbolisms and mesages in the game) here is what I deducted: people said the obvious about connotation of 'altruism' and Altruis's name, but I also saw the obvious (at least it immediately gave me that impression) that Kayn is actually a metaphore of Kain or biblical Cain.

Cain sacrifices his brother because he blindly followed the order that sacrifice has to be made so he did wrong (and God was testing them). So, in the end, Blizzard gives us a video to 'freshen our memory' where there is no a backside for Altruis's viewpoint, which is basicaly a test of faith. If Illidan told you to sacrifice someone close to you (it will be for the greater good) would you do it? it is a classic test of faith. So I believe that the option of chosing Altruis is actually reading between lines and not let yourself be deceived by dualistic and labile ethical standards.

[Thage]

Altruis, but that's because I want a second who won't hesitate to question my actions. It helps that I understand Altruis's motives from doing his questline back in BC; he's one of the old-guard demon hunters who still have one foot in night elf culture and remember the War of the Ancients. Kayn, on the other hand, seems unrelentingly power-hungry and poised to push the Illidari over the brink they were balancing on (badly) back in BC. If the Illidari start approaching that ledge again, I want a second who can recognize it so we can pull back before hitting the point of no return. It's one thing to gaze into the abyss, it's another to swan-dive in.