The Horde's performance at Broken Shore is quite pathetic

[JustRob]

Because in Hyjal, the way they arranged their forces, the legion would be picking off the alliance, the horde, and the night elves separately. The plan was still for each side to buy time to Malfurion by holding off the legion forces, and retreating when overwhelmed.

Exactly like in the broken shore. The horde didn't "abandon" the alliance. They provided cover for the alliance until they were overwhelmed, and then they withdrew.



You know nothing about orcs, or orc culture or the meaning behind Lok'tar Ogar.

Lok'tar Ogar, Victory or Death, is applied to WARS, not battles. Name me a single war where every single battle was won. Go on, I'm waiting.

Even in the first, second and third war, the horde won and lost battles, yet their motto of Victory or Death was maintained because they fought to the end, they didn't capitulate, nor did they surrender. When the orcs tried to conquer lordaeron, they came inches away from victory, but they were betrayed by Gul'dan who took their forces off to the tomb of sargeras, and so that was a battle were the orcs were forced to retreat.

That battle costed them the war, but rather than surrender, and negotiate with the alliance, the orcs retreated to blackrock mountain, were they made a final stand, and simply fought the alliance until almost all of them died.

THAT is the meaning behind Lok'tar Ogar. It means you don't go down easy, you go down biting, and hitting, and chewing, and slicing all the way to the floor. And that's EXACTLY how the horde, and the orcs, behaved in the broken shore.

They didn't retreat the instant things began to look bad, they waited until they were almost dead before sounding the retreat, unlike the alliance who ran away the second they saw the tide of battle turning against them.

Yet most orcs were somehow rounded up alive and put into camps where they were kept as sheep. If they are so hardcore, why didn't they fight to the death? How was it that the great Orgrim Doomhammer could be captured alive and kept as King Terenas' personal pet?

I also like how you say they never retreat, then name instances where they did retreat but then it's okay because you have this and that excuse. That's not how it works.

[CostinR]

Blame the Horde sure, because while Varian and Gul'Dan were chatting along we were being zerged by hordes of demons.

https://youtu.be/Uwf4PHZLgyk?t=20m25s

[The Stormbringer]

[QUOTE=anaxie;41894307]It's more than awesome it's powerful

Vol'jins death speech and Sylvanas addressing the horde was POWERFUL and chill inducing

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Why couldn't thrall just send gigantic lavablasts at the space ships? They were like on a volcano already.[thrall hasn't been a shaman since he killed garrosh.

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Kaboom goes the king

Yeah, but I was referring to what happened during the fight (aka 'in battle').

[Ebalina]

"i have come to the conclusion"

Who the fck are you exactly that we need to use you as some sort of merit?

[mhdoe]

Someone seems salty

[Deleted]

But Rob, you avatar is dead, man.

[purebalance]

Gul'dan knew exactly what he was doing and was never in any danger. Broken Shore was a trap. Varian saying "We're winning." was him falling into it. Gul'dan could have summoned the Fel Reaver whenever he wanted. He was just getting pleasure watching Alliance troops get killed while the legion took in basic terms no losses. Every Demon lost would just respawn in the nether and come out of the portal once again. If Gul'dan was in any danger the Fel Reaver would have been summoned, along with other demons just to finish off the Alliance.

That's not how it works. Their soul returns to the nether and they need time to reform. It IS NOT instant.

[lightofdawn]

I'm not crying, Horde fanboys should be crying. Their venture into Broken Shore was outright humiliating. Thrall got slapped around like a bitch, Vol'jin got stabbed once then died after Sylvanas carried his pathetic ass back, etc

wouldn't call living to fight another day humiliating. if anything they were prepared for the worst when the alliance's only fallback plan failed miserably

[Kayb]

You need to stop watching the cinematic and actually play the horde version of the scenario. The cinematic doesn't properly convey the massacre that was going on in that cliff. Mainly because the "horde" cinematic only has like 15 seconds of actual horde screentime, and then 4 uninterrupted minutes of Varian Fan Wank.

What does the alliance have to deal with on their side? Two waves of ground troops. That's it.

What does the horde have to deal with on our side? endless waves of ground troops, an infinite stream of aerial troops (Which our archers kept away from your side down to the last second) and fucking legion fel carriers bombing the living shit out of our troops.



They didn't sneak, they were there from the start, we kept that massive tide of demons away from the alliance for as long as possible, but there's only so much you can do when legion spaceships are blasting you from the sky.



God only knows? wrong. Do the scenario. He received a combined blast by all three spaceships. To the chest dude.



Exhaustion will do that to you



Not exactly. Baine was blasted by the spaceships too, and had to be carried back to sylvanas.



Ohh you wanna talk about sad?

Lets talk about sad.

Lets talk about how the horde had to fight off FAR MORE than the alliance did (Ground troops, aerial troops, and fucking spaceships) and yet we held the line and even managed to evacuate everyone without the need of one of us having to sacrifice himself for the rest. Meanwhile, a fucking alliance gunship with enough artillery on both sides to flatten a city, can't get a fel reaver to release its grip on it, despite having nearly a dozen cannons trained on him. AT POINTBLANK RANGE.

Lets talk about how the horde refused to retreat until most of our army was wiped out by the orbital bombardment by the legion spaceships, and 3 out of 4 of our leaders were down, one of them fatally injured. While the alliance was perfectly okay, all four of their leaders were fine, most of their army was intact, yet the minute, THE SECOND, that things began to look bad, they didn't hold the line, they ran away immediately.

Lets talk about how the plan was that the horde would buy the alliance time to do its part of the job on that cliff, and the alliance had to charge through and finish the legion down there, yet even though the horde did its part of the job (We bought you the time you needed) Varian wasted this precious time making fancy speeches instead of shutting up and getting the job done (Sylvanas had to at one point scold Varian with the perfect "Less chatting Wrynn, KILL HIM ALREADY!!!").

Lets talk about how despite not having to deal with even half the shit the horde was facing up on that cliff, your side was still completely incapable of reaching gul'dan and end all of this, even though, as mentioned above, all four of your leads were perfectly okay, you only had ground troops to deal with, you had air support and we didn't, and one of your leaders was piloting a fucking battlemech. What, was it too hard to shoot a missile barrage at gul'dan or something?

Lets talk about how when all its said and done, and a massive crippling defeat is delivered to BOTH sides, the horde's first and immediate concern is about reorganizing, regrouping, and starting to plan the next assault, all of the horde united in solidarity in this moment of dire need, while the alliance is bitching, whining, bickering amongst themselves, and moaning about perceived backstabs betrayals and abandonment issues instead of focusing on the real menace here, which they KNOW they can't defeat by themselves.

You wanted to talk about pathetic? There, we talked about pathetic. You and your alliance are fucking pathetic.

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They are too busy hanging out with Velen, Tyrande, the dwarf leads, and that pandaren chick who they also obviously don't care about anymore as she was a one expansion character.

Both sides had missing leaders. I guess they felt it was pointless to send the entire leadership of both sides to battle, just in case something bad happened. In hindsight that was a good idea.



He wasn't at the broken shore. The broken shore takes place at the same time as the second half of the demon hunter starting zone, and he's there, to send the illidari to stormwind and to orgrimmar.



Well he was busy securing extra allies for the fight against the legion, miles away from that carnage. So at least he has a justification for not mass porting everyone away. Jaina however, didn't teleport anyone because she's a useless psychotic bitch who is only good for bitching, moaning, and raging like a toddler.

Come on, she was in this situation the last time the legion came a'knocking. She held off Archimonde for as long as she could to buy time for someone else to do some mumbo-jumbo, and when her forces were overwhelmed, she fled, teleporting everyone away.

Now here we are, and she's giving shit to the horde for doing the exact same thing she did the last time the legion is here.

^ All this

[willtron]

I'm sorry to say, but it's true.

After watching both the Alliance and the Horde cinematics several times, I have come to this conclusion.

Sylvanas and the rest of the Horde pick a ridge to flank the Legion. But before long, they get buttfucked from behind. How? How do you not have the rear covered? How did they sneak up on you like that?

The mighty Thrall is crawling around on the ground like he had one too many beers. God only knows what happened to him in the five seconds we didn't see him to send him on his knees like that.

Vol'jin gets stabbed in the stomach, not from behind, but from the front, by a felguard that he MUST have seen charging towards him.

Baine is the only one who actually manages to keep standing and fighting, and has to drag the all powerful world-shaman away from the battlefield.

And then Sylvanas signals the retreat and gets everyone out of there.

Horde, I'm disappointed. That performance was just sad.

Your hero got rekt. Varian got stabbed from behind. Twice.

[Derah]

Yet most orcs were somehow rounded up alive and put into camps where they were kept as sheep. If they are so hardcore, why didn't they fight to the death? How was it that the great Orgrim Doomhammer could be captured alive and kept as King Terenas' personal pet?

I also like how you say they never retreat, then name instances where they did retreat but then it's okay because you have this and that excuse. That's not how it works.

wow.

Ok lets deconstruct this one step at a time (I still find it funny that my initial post, that has been quoted like 50 times, you still haven't gotten the guts to respond to yet.)

Yet most orcs were somehow rounded up alive and put into camps where they were kept as sheep.

1:The overwhelming majority of the horde fought to the death in blackrock mountain, the few that were captured alive were very much a minority. When the horde initially came to azeroth, they outnumbered the alliance 50 to 1, its part of the reason why they steamrolled through stormwind in the first war, and why they curbstomped the alliance in the second war until gul'dan took 50% of the horde to the tomb of sargeras. And even with that 50% left that Doomhammer had, they still put up one HELL of a last stand for the alliance that they just BARELY managed to win. The few survivors that the alliance managed to capture alive, were simply because they fought until exhaustion wore them down. If you fight a battle for 14 uninterrupted hours, sooner or later you WILL collapse from exhaustion, we're not perpetual motion machines.

Even then, this mostly applied to the blackrock clan, because the warsong clan was never captured, the dragonmaw clan was never captured (in fact, even after alextrazsa broke free, the dragonmaw still managed to avoid capture, and established a new home in the twilight highlands) the frostwolf clan was never captured, and there were plenty of blackrock orcs that were never captured (Eitrigg comes to mind)

If they are so hardcore, why didn't they fight to the death?

2: What do you think the battle of Blackrock was? The horde pushed all the way to the capital of Lordaeron, yet were forced to retreat when Gul'dan took half of the horde to the tomb of sargeras. So the horde retreated to blackrock. The alliance sent a few forces to parlay with the orcs and offer them terms of surrender, and the orcs refused. They fought the alliance and put up one hell of a last stand. At no point they surrendered, the few orcs that survived that final battle were captured alive more out of exhaustion than voluntary surrendering and laying down their arms. Doomhammer himself was extremely battered and bruised with a HUGE gash on his stomach after he squashed Lothar's head like a tomato, and yet when Turalyon came charging at him, he still fought on, he lived because Turalyon refused to kill him, not because Doomhammer surrendered voluntarily.

THAT was "Lok'tar Ogar" applied to the letter. The moment Doomhammer saw that Gul'dan took half of the horde to the tomb of sargeras, right then and there, he knew that the horde was defeated. Yet rather than trying to parlay, rather than trying to negotiate, rather than trying to bargaining his way to save his neck, he instead retreated to a fortified position and prepared to deliver one fuck of a final stand.

How was it that the great Orgrim Doomhammer could be captured alive and kept as King Terenas' personal pet?

3: Collapsed from exhaustion, but he did not surrender willingly. He fought until he literally bled into unconsciousness. Do remember that just before he squashed the head of lothar like an overripe tomato, lothar more or less sliced open his stomach, and he began to bleed profusely. What do you think happens when you lose enough pints of blood? And even then, he made sure to take the strongest warrior in the alliance with him before going down. Also, he was never "kept as a pet" by no alliance king. On the way to the capital, he escaped capture, and even managed to take his weapon and armor before escaping. There aren't any chains in this world or the next that can hold Doomhammer captive. Unlike your oh-so-worshiped varian who WAS enslaved and kept as a pet not by an orc warchief, not even a chieftain, but a lowly orc shaman, and the only reason varian was even able to escape, is because other horde leaders helped him (Hamuul in particular)

I also like how you say they never retreat, then name instances where they did retreat but then it's okay because you have this and that excuse. That's not how it works.

Read my post again. its clear english isn't your strongest point.

I never said that the horde "never retreats" I said that the horde NEVER SURRENDERS. Lok'tar Ogar is applied to WARS, not battles.

Again, retreating from a battle is common. Name me one war, just one, where not a single battle is lost. Go on, I'm waiting. The orcs have lost battles in the past. The meaning behind Lok'tar Ogar is not "throw your life away in battle". That's the butchered and bastardized meaning that garrosh tried to inflict on it (asides from his own personal spin on it "Victory or Death = Succeed, or I kill you".)

The meaning behind lok'tar ogar is that we either win the war, or we go down fighting. At no point is it ever implied that the orcs don't retreat. Again, even when the orcs lost the second war, they made sure to sell their skin as expensively as possible, and refused any attempts at parlay and negotiation thrown their way. Sure, they retreated from lordaeron, but they made their final stand in blackrock and fought until they literally collapsed from exhaustion and blood loss.

[Traveler Voltin]

That's not how it works. Their soul returns to the nether and they need time to reform. It IS NOT instant.

lesser demon take less time to form new bodies.
its all about the power

[Stormdash]

The Horde didn't really "pick" the ridge, the ridge is the side of Krosus' pool they were on. And when they got up there, they immediately tasked all of their ranged support to protecting... the Alliance. So their own infantry faced on oncoming tide of demons that were pretty unending, without any ranged support at all. So keeping only half their attention on their own survival, they were overrun.

The basic complaint here is that the Horde should have simply allowed itself to be end with total loss so the Alliance could... what? Fail later. Let's not forget, we as the audience have benefit of the factual knowledge that there was no way to close the portal without the Pillars. The invasion was doomed from the beginning. 100 out of 100 scenarios end in failure. Do you comprehend that?

[Ielenia]

If only you had some Kirin Tor with you in your assault.

Oh wait you did. A lot of them

Hard to cast spells when you're falling to your death. Remember: you gotta stand still to cast spells.

[anaxie]

Lets rewind all the way back to varian

Remember the letter dictated in the cinematic about how Varian learned from Anduin patience and trusting the Horde?

Now remmber the broken shore. Keep in mind that letter he entrusts to Genn. Is in fact that same letter.

All things considered before this expansion is over. Sylvanas is going to become the hero the Horde needs and Anduin is inevidably as the expansion progresses become the man that tells Genn and Jaina to stand the fuck DOWN. Hes been in the background telling everyone to stop fighting for a long time. Now he has the Authority that his father had to get some balls and say STOP THIS POINTLESS FIGHTING.

Maybe Anduin will get some character building to give the Alliance some backbone so they stop feeling like everyone that isn't Alliance has an agenda against them and quit crying like sniveling children.

But don't take my word from it. take Khadgar's word for it.

The Guardian of Azeroth who makes Jaina the most pro Alliance fingers in ears nutjob look like a complete fucking idiot infront of the council of six.

Like I was with Jaina. Fuck Garrosh. Garrosh is dead. His horde is dead. And she still runs around chanting FUCK THE HORDE. She is just bad writing at this point. she is either a dreadlord replaced to cause discontent. Think Varimathras I havn't seen him in awhile and he wasn't summoned at broken shore. OR she is just so completely off her fucking rocker, I go with the latter because a dreadlord masking around infront of the most powerful mages of Azeroth doesn't seem like it's really something tha would actually happen.

[Zyky]

Side note: who thinks Tyrion is actually dead? I ask because he still shows in the Class Hall for Paladins at some point, as well as a few overlooked things. 1) namely that as he went into the Fel lake he was still glowing faintly with the light, and (2) Blizzard has been pretty consistent that when an NPC dies, their health bar goes to 0. If you leave Tyrion highlighted until he despawned his health is only down by a quarter of the bar. Any thoughts?

stays alive for the ret pally quest, draws his last breath telling the Pally that he is now the Ashbringer, and dies.

[blehmeh]

THAT is the meaning behind Lok'tar Ogar. It means you don't go down easy, you go down biting, and hitting, and chewing, and slicing all the way to the floor. And that's EXACTLY how the horde, and the orcs, behaved in the broken shore.

They didn't retreat the instant things began to look bad, they waited until they were almost dead before sounding the retreat, unlike the alliance who ran away the second they saw the tide of battle turning against them.

You mean, the same "Lok'tar Ogar" that brought Garrosh his eventual downfall? Maybe just a bit too much pride in your soup.

[Charge me Doctor]

Maybe Anduin will get some character building to give the Alliance some backbone so they stop feeling like everyone that isn't Alliance has an agenda against them and quit crying like sniveling children.

I honestly don't mid anduin to become a strong alliance character, i hope blizzard won't fuck this up by making Genn or Jaina or Magni a center of attention for alliance

[bloodmoth13]

Horde fights off legion forces from 2 fronts, covering the alliance flanks and dealing with the enemy air forces, alliance fights only one front, bitches that the horde falls back after getting overwhelmed protecting their ungrateful asses.

your welcome alliance! next time the horde should just let them get flanked to save their own troops from the start

[Skyforge1]

thrall hasn't been a shaman since he killed garrosh.

Then how did he summon a bridge made out of earth in the Broken Shore scenario?