(Blood) DKs have become a joke

[Simulacrum]

Have you really played tank DH at 110? They take tons of damage, ways more than blood DK does.

Why do they take relatively more damage than DKs as they go from 100 to 110? Right now, at 100, my DH and DK feel exactly the same in ilvl 700 doing mythic dungeons for the heirloom trinkets. If anything, my DH feels stronger since I can just jump out of harm's way or aoe disorient everything if I'm in danger. And the DH doesn't even have all its talents yet.

[HTowN]

Why do they take relatively more damage than DKs as they go from 100 to 110? Right now, at 100, my DH and DK feel exactly the same in ilvl 700 doing mythic dungeons for the heirloom trinkets. If anything, my DH feels stronger since I can just jump out of harm's way or aoe disorient everything if I'm in danger. And the DH doesn't even have all its talents yet.

Well, because you take next to no dmg at all in mythic dgn atm.

If you try beta, you will get the feel.

IMO, the only weakness of Blood is mobility. They excel at everything else. Great sustain, great self-heal, good tank dps.

[Simulacrum]

Well, because you take next to no dmg at all in mythic dgn atm.

If you try beta, you will get the feel.

Yes, sure. But my healer isn't healing me either, most of the time. On either character. And they feel the same in that way, my healer required to do the same amount of healing this week healing my DH as he did last week healing my DK. So I'm not seeing why things would be radically different at 110. If my DH starts dying instantly, my DK should start dying instantly as well.

Sounds to me just like more of the strange fearmongering that surrounds DH tanks for some reason. I see people complaining about being squishy on them all the time on live right now, even though from both my experience and what I've read that doesn't conform to reality at all. Of course, that might be different on 110, but that's why I'm asking - why would it be?

There are a lot of memes about class balance going around lately, so I'm not in a trusting mood when it comes to people simply asserting things without giving any real reasons for why what they're saying is true other than that that's what lots of other people are saying.

IMO, the only weakness of Blood is mobility. They excel at everything else. Great sustain, great self-heal, good tank dps.

No cooldowns is a big downside as well. Not that DH has any of those either, but e.g. my paladin (which is insanely boring, so I won't play him) is drowning in them.

[Saybel]

Not that DH has any of those either

They have a 40% DR CD that works on singletarget but is literally like a minute cooldown

And you can talent it to spread to adds

And it does dmg

pretty fucking nifty imo

[Simulacrum]

They have a 40% DR CD that works on singletarget but is literally like a minute cooldown

And you can talent it to spread to adds

And it does dmg

pretty fucking nifty imo

Oh right, I keep forgetting that that's a shieldwall-kind of thing. It hits so hard - and none of the content I'm doing is dangerous to me - so I just think of it as DPS.

You're right of course.

[HTowN]

Yes, sure. But my healer isn't healing me either, most of the time. On either character. And they feel the same in that way, my healer required to do the same amount of healing this week healing my DH as he did last week healing my DK. So I'm not seeing why things would be radically different at 110. If my DH starts dying instantly, my DK should start dying instantly as well.

Sounds to me just like more of the strange fearmongering that surrounds DH tanks for some reason. I see people complaining about being squishy on them all the time on live right now, even though from both my experience and what I've read that doesn't conform to reality at all. Of course, that might be different on 110, but that's why I'm asking - why would it be?

There are a lot of memes about class balance going around lately, so I'm not in a trusting mood when it comes to people simply asserting things without giving any real reasons for why what they're saying is true other than that that's what lots of other people are saying.



No cooldowns is a big downside as well. Not that DH has any of those either, but e.g. my paladin (which is insanely boring, so I won't play him) is drowning in them.

I don't say that DH is squishy. They just take more dmg than DK.

If you are hoping that DH has the same survivability as DK while has superior mobility, that's not gonna happen.

Paladin has many CDs, but their sustain is weak. You have to play the CD right. One wrong move and you are easily a dead tank. (we are talking at lvl 110 ofc)

[Simulacrum]

I don't say that DH is squishy. They just take more dmg than DK.

If you are hoping that DH has the same survivability as DK while has superior mobility, that's not gonna happen.

...

Well, to my mind, saying that they take "tons of" and "way more" damage than DKs is saying that they're squishy, especially since DKs already kind of take a lot of damage relative to druids or warriors. Now, if you just meant to say that they take more damage than blood DKs then I buy that. Should downplay the hyperbole a little if that's what you're going for, though.

And I'm not sure your second point is valid. Druids, for example, have insanely much more mobility than DKs and have greater survivability. So obviously mobility and survivability are unrelated to one another.

[HTowN]

Well, to my mind, saying that they take "tons of" and "way more" damage than DKs is saying that they're squishy, especially since DKs already kind of take a lot of damage relative to druids or warriors. Now, if you just meant to say that they take more damage than blood DKs then I buy that. Should downplay the hyperbole a little if that's what you're going for, though.

And I'm not sure your second point is valid. Druids, for example, have insanely much more mobility than DKs and have greater survivability. So obviously mobility and survivability are unrelated to one another.

Well, in mythic+, everything hits really hard. So 5-10% more dmg is pretty significant.

Blood and DH have better self-healing than druid. Also, I'm not sure why you say that druid has greater survivability.

[Deleted]

Did you just seriously complain that a tank spec is pulling too much aggro?

Aggro isn't the problem 99% of the time.

I want the ability to toggle it off and on like we had since WotLK. Same toggle that gave some much needed flavour to DKs.

[Deleted]

Aggro isn't the problem 99% of the time.

I want the ability to toggle it off and on like we had since WotLK. Same toggle that gave some much needed flavour to DKs.

and for what do u need that ? oO

[Deleted]

I don't get how people can really praise WoD blood. It was one dimensional, boring and dumb. 90% of your casts were DS, BB and DC, with the rest being Blood Tap and Rune Tap. Oh wait, Plague Leech + glyphed Outbreak? Boring as fuck.
The only joy in the spec was BoS, and by the end of HFC it was so easy to keep up it became boring too.

New blood is pretty hectic. Keep always at least 5 charges of BS, try to spend all your runes when on D&D, don't let BB stacks cap, try to use HS as much as you can for more rp. It's fast,intuitive and rewarding.

The real problem is that players can't really digest this whole new "Legion tanking" going on. No tank feels immortal like before, and every single one of the got hit pretty hard compared to what we were used to in the last two expansions. I can kinda agree with that, but it's not like we have it that bad.
Out of all the tanks I have, Monks feels terrible under every way you lok at them. Warrior is ridicolously strong right now due to Ignore Pain being op, but oh god isn't it boring as hell to play.
IMHO, people still have to realize blood was obviusly made for aoe tanking: the more mobs you get near you, the more you become a raid boss. Aoe dps and healing is simply hilarous, and I can only imagine what we will become once we get our hands on the Maw. Maybe it's not for everyone, but I'm grateful the days when I spam blood boil and death coil like an idiot are finally over.

[Deleted]

Maybe it's not for everyone, but I'm grateful the days when I spam blood boil and death coil like an idiot are finally over.

And now we get to spam Heart Strike like idiots, occasionally pop a CD and spend the rest of the encounter letting the boss punch us in the face. After all, who needs player agency or meaningful choices. That only hurts the feelings of baddies. After all, Blizzard has to do everything to keep the casual crowd pleased, they know raiders will stay subscribed anyway.

[Deleted]

And now we get to spam Heart Strike like idiots, occasionally pop a CD and spend the rest of the encounter letting the boss punch us in the face. After all, who needs player agency or meaningful choices. That only hurts the feelings of baddies. After all, Blizzard has to do everything to keep the casual crowd pleased, they know raiders will stay subscribed anyway.

If all you do is spam HS, you're doing it terribly wrong.
I still fail to understand the depth and "meaningful choices" WoD blood had. Spam DS + BB based on your runes and dump rp with DC? Use Plague Leech + Outbreak every 30 sec? The old rune system was exactly what deprived you of choices, with the only joy being Blood Tap. Now you do actually have a choice on what consume your runes on, and even rp if you take the dedicated talent. You do actually have control on every aspect of your mitigations and dps.

[Khiyone]

I don't get how people can really praise WoD blood. It was one dimensional, boring and dumb. 90% of your casts were DS, BB and DC, with the rest being Blood Tap and Rune Tap. Oh wait, Plague Leech + glyphed Outbreak? Boring as fuck.

Difficulty and complexity stems from decision-making, not from which buttons you press. To the experienced player, there is no challenge in keeping up a buff, or executing a straightforward priority rotation. That's not even taking into account the fact that tanks have almost never had complex base rotations compared to DPS specs (due to the expectation that they also have survival to take into account) - don't kid yourself that Legion's base rotation is any harder or more engaging than WoD's. Maybe it is if you take Soulgorge, but that talent is not even usable on most fights and offers only a trivial increase over Rapid Decomposition on the few fights where it is a valid choice.

6.1 Blood especially had tons of decision making via the option to spend resources on Rune Tap/Chains of Ice/Blood Boil/Death Strike. Each of these abilities had their own distinct niche, and also shared resources. Moreover, the basic gameplay (fitting CDs/DS usage to the damage patterns of a fight) was far more fulfilling due to having many more CDs to begin with, not to mention the direct AM--> damage tradeoff present in the rotation. The fact that you spent "90%" (not even remotely close to accurate) of your casts on a few abilities is totally irrelevant; this is the same invalid argument that people used to call Arcane mages "faceroll." I've mentioned this above, but again - it is entirely possible for a spec with only a few abilities in its base rotation to have lots of depth.

Legion Blood, by contrast, is totally binary. You Marrowrend when you have 6 or fewer stacks of Bone Shield, and Heart Strike otherwise - there is no choice at all in terms of how you spend runes. There's only 1 real RP spender as well, Death Strike. Mark of Blood is a pathetic ability, and Bonestorm is not going to be used on any serious progression content barring trivial bosses like Hellfire High Council or something. There's only 1 actual CD, Vampiric Blood (all the other CDs offered as talents are horrible, and AMS has been gutted), so the gameplay of fitting CDs to damage patterns is gone as well. Death Strike is a wet noodle of a heal (Troxism was talking in IRC about how not using Death Strike at all is maybe only a 20% mitigation loss due to how much of your healing requirements are sustained by healers now) The spec is absolutely horrible to play, no matter which flashy buttons you might be pressing. There's absolutely no depth, no choices, and no meaningful gameplay.

I'm also not sure why some earlier posts in the thread talk about the artifact adding depth. The majority of the traits are purely numerical and do not alter gameplay at all, the only exceptions being Unending Thirst and Consumption. (I suppose Mouth of Hell eliminates the need to use 2 Marrowrends in your opener, so that could be added as well). Consumption is just there as a damage button and does almost no healing unless there are multiple targets, and Unending Thirst doesn't exactly do much either.

And that's why Legion Blood will never be anywhere close to WoD Blood in terms of offering good gameplay.

[Rubim]

If all you do is spam HS, you're doing it terribly wrong.
I still fail to understand the depth and "meaningful choices" WoD blood had. Spam DS + BB based on your runes and dump rp with DC? Use Plague Leech + Outbreak every 30 sec? The old rune system was exactly what deprived you of choices, with the only joy being Blood Tap. Now you do actually have a choice on what consume your runes on, and even rp if you take the dedicated talent. You do actually have control on every aspect of your mitigations and dps.

Marrowrend until 5 Stacks
DS with the rest.
Don't over cap rune.

That's about it.

The only thing you need to know about cds, is when to use AMS.

With 'choice' you mean, should i DS or Marrowrend?

[Dristereau]

I always preferred MoP Blood DK. Rune Strike to actually use RP in Melee, Death Coil for Ranged. Blood Tap/Rune Tap restored Health, it felt pretty fun to play. I felt WoD was okay, changed Blood Tap to be DR but it still worked, some interesting Talents.

Legion Version is a change in style. Feels much more like a Warrior in terms of Mitigation. The control and storing of Rune Tap charges of even Runes is now gone with the cost being RP and a relatively low limit. I don't like Wraith Walk at all compared to Death's Advance, and I don't feel as interested in Blood Tap. I always felt Blood was a very reactive Tank, you used your cooldowns to react to spikes, and Death Strike to smooth out the rest. It felt to me like you had a lot of control over your own fate, and it could really be a lot of fun to pull off. However, Blizzard's design for Tanks in Legion is quite the opposite of this, making Tanks fairly dull in comparison it feels like to me.

I won't lie, I have not played at Level 110. But I don't feel from the Videos I've seen of Legion, Level 100 Gameplay and my other experiences, that Blood or indeed any Tank is as fun to play. Maybe that's just me personally. But I enjoyed Tanking the most in MoP where AM had been implemented first. All the Tank specs appealed to me and felt fun to play. I don't have that interest now in Tanking. Some of them, especially Paladin, just plain seem dull. I don't think Blood has become a joke. I just think Blizzard's aim with Tanking has changed to make the role more simple. Maybe I will end up playing a Tank. But right now I have no interest in it being my Main role as it was for MoP and most of WoD.

[Halyon]

You should try tanking as a Demon Hunter then...

[shonist]

i like more legion blood than wod :/

[Eats Compost]

I think that all three specs, since their redesign, suffer from a bit of ambiguity regarding what they're actually meant to be good at. Blood has some ramp-up and no situations where is seems to shine more than other tanking specs, Frost feels like a very generic but no-mobility melee, and Unholy has a whole bunch of gimmicks that don't actually manifest as an advantageous way of dealing damage in any situations (on top of the no-mobility thing). The one exception I can think of is that none of them really suck at AoE with the right talent choices, but that's somewhat offset by the total reliance on those talents for UH and Frost.

Blood in particular also happens to suffer from having a bunch of garbage talents. Way too many non-interactive passives, and some things (like Tombstone) just seem outright bad. They also made a lot of the actives compete with Death Strike for RP, which has its own problems.

A lot of the reworks' backbones are on track, but they really have to hammer in something that each spec is really, really good at, and they also need to revisit a few of the talents. The class fantasy of what buttons to press and when is good, but I'm not sold on the class fantasy of our output.

Of course, I might just be ignorant on this one. Those are just the impressions I've gotten from playing so far.

[Philondra]

Blood in particular also happens to suffer from having a bunch of garbage talents. Way too many non-interactive passives, and some things (like Tombstone) just seem outright bad. They also made a lot of the actives compete with Death Strike for RP, which has its own problems.

This is something which we have discussed on these forums and the official forums for months, but either Blizzard doesn't agree with us or is taking a wait-and-see approach to how things play out in the first few weeks of raiding.

In the pre-patch, though, it should be very obvious that blood dks who have done their research are avoiding certain talents like the plague (Tombstone and Soulgorge being the most egregious, but also Blooddrinker, Bloodworms, Rune Tap, Mark of Blood, and Will of the Necropolis).

Edit: As for the playstyle of blood, I actually switched my main from resto shaman because I like the flow of blood (and because resto shaman are basically the same old class they've always been). I'm one of those weirdos who enjoys having some dead time in the rotation so that I'm not furiously mashing buttons, and the pacing rewards patience over spamming.