Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Terahertz]

due to the recent changes to the shadowdancebar does this mean stance macros are back in?

i dont get these conditionals right...

[stance:2] is Stealth Subterfuge Vanish and Dance?
[Bonusbar:1] is only to show the right tooltip between Backstab and Shadowstrike?

[stance:2] will allow you to create macros for Shadow Dance (and Subterfuge) like you used to be able to, not for Stealth/Vanish. I'm not sure what [bonusbar:1] does, though.

[Spriestlawl]

[bonusbar:1] will be anytime a bonus bar is activated, including vanish, stealth, dance, and subterfuge.

It's interesting they didn't just return shadowdance to [stance:3] and that they explicitly said it's [stance:2].... We'll have to see if the blue misspoke or that's how it is now.

[Felpacino]

I beat them 99% of the time on my lock (even after Aff's nerf), and now that Shadowstrike's range has been lowered to almost nothing, I haven't lost to a Rogue 1v1 yet on my Mage.

Which spec do you use?

[Chemii]

It changes nothing, before you just never had to use shadow step ever. Hell before the nerf i only used shadow step to run away to my healer in pvp lol. 15 yard is still enough for me to chase someone on a flying mount until they die/i run out of shadow dances.

Sorry but I disagree. The nerf to the range makes the point of the actual teleport almost pointless. You basically have to be right next to the target anyway.

[Deleted]

so its possible to create one with

/cast [stance:1] Backstab
/cast [stance:2] Shadowstrike

or

/cast [stance:1] Backstab
/cast [stance:2] Shadowstrike
/cast [bonusbar:1] Shadowstrike or Symbols of death

so it would cast Backstab in combat no stealth
cast Shadowstrike in combat in Shadowdance/ out off Stealth
cast Shadowstrike if i use vanish? or set it to cast symbols of death?

that would be an extremly lazy macro^^

[Terahertz]

Sorry but I disagree. The nerf to the range makes the point of the actual teleport almost pointless. You basically have to be right next to the target anyway.

The nerf really is pretty harsh considering many gap openers are 20+ yards so you can no longer Shadowstrike instantly after someone who's used blink/displacer beast, resulting in being kited endlessly.

so its possible to create one with

/cast [stance:1] Backstab
/cast [stance:2] Shadowstrike

or

/cast [stance:1] Backstab
/cast [stance:2] Shadowstrike
/cast [bonusbar:1] Shadowstrike or Symbols of death

so it would cast Backstab in combat no stealth
cast Shadowstrike in combat in Shadowdance/ out off Stealth
cast Shadowstrike if i use vanish? or set it to cast symbols of death?

that would be an extremly lazy macro^^

Stance 1 counts as stealth I believe, so your macro would use Backstab while in stealth.

/use [stance:1/2]Shadowstrike;Backstab

That should cast Shadowstrike when in stealth/vanish and during shadow dance/subterfuge.

I'm honestly still not sure how exactly [bonusbar:1] works and how it's relevant at all when you can already specify stealth and shadow dance in the upcoming hotfix.

[Minka]

The nerf really is pretty harsh considering many gap openers are 20+ yards so you can no longer Shadowstrike instantly after someone who's used blink/displacer beast, resulting in being kited endlessly.

They need to undo the nerf.
25 yards was ok and 15 feels like nearly standing next to the target

[Terahertz]

They need to undo the nerf.
25 yards was ok and 15 feels like nearly standing next to the target

I think they should put it at 20 yards. Most gap openers are at 20 yards and what this does is it allows outplay potential. If you press Shadowstrike quick enough, or time it well enough after a mage blinks, you're able to follow him. If the mage times his blink right, you won't be able to Shadowstrike to him, thus adding skill to the situation. I think. :P

[Deleted]

The nerf really is pretty harsh considering many gap openers are 20+ yards so you can no longer Shadowstrike instantly after someone who's used blink/displacer beast, resulting in being kited endlessly.

This is the whole point of the nerf. It's ridiculous that nobodies gap openers are working against Sub rogues.

[minteK917]

It just weeds the bad rogues from the good ones. You guys whine meanwhile Pshero still doing his blind folds challenges.

[Minka]

It just weeds the bad rogues from the good ones. You guys whine meanwhile Pshero still doing his blind folds challenges.

And again he plays against fucking scrubs in skirmish.
This will change once he plays against players his level.
I also shit on the idiots playing skirmish on beta.

They are all so bad that it has nothing to do with class problems.
Backpaddeling all over there is only one thing...

[minteK917]

And again he plays against fucking scrubs in skirmish.
This will change once he plays against players his level.
I also shit on the idiots playing skirmish on beta.

They are all so bad that it has nothing to do with class problems.
Backpaddeling all over there is only one thing...

Shadow step still exits. You might have to use it offensivelly now. If you are talking arena that matter sub still has the best mobility of all melee. Only bads would think otherwise.

[Deleted]

Shadow step still exits. You might have to use it offensivelly now. If you are talking arena that matter sub still has the best mobility of all melee. Only bads would think otherwise.

Ever since pre-patch I've been wondering what Shadowstep is for.

Feels like this change was needed?

[Conformist]

The nerf to shadowstrike was justified. It's almost still too much even now.

[Celfydd]

The nerf to shadowstrike was justified. It's almost still too much even now.

Thank you for your reasoned and unbiased argument.

[Conformist]

Thank you for your reasoned and unbiased argument.

How am I supposed to make unbiased arguments as a sub rogue at 100? I'm playing sub right now and intend on doing so at 110 as well. But you can't really argue reasonable or unbiased before you get to see how the game plays at level 110 rated arenas.

But 15 yards range nullifier is OP. I prefer the good old days when you actually had to struggle to get into range, but when you did you did damage as well. It was a dance between the casters and the rogue. Now it's just button mashing.

Only reason people are up in arms about this is because they got used to the 25 yards. If it had been 15 yards from the beginning people would have been happy with zero complaints.

[Celfydd]

But you can't really argue reasonable or unbiased before you get to see how the game plays at level 110 rated arenas.

Really? Cloak and Dagger was in the game for years and most pro PvPers chose Shadowstep in preference to it, despite the fact that Cloak and Dagger was 40 yards range, considerably greater than 25, because Shadowstep allows you to escape to a friendly whereas Cloak and Dagger only exposed you (and of course requires stealth). Making this baseline and nerfing the range to 25 yards was therefore hardly OP.

I prefer the good old days when you actually had to struggle to get into range

However that is not consistent with the new class fantasy for sub: their stated intention being "Shadowstrike provides incredible mobility for attacking from Stealth" (my emphasis) - I hardly think a 15 yard jump is "incredible mobility", warriors and monks and survival hunters and demon hunters have much better mobility than that.

So you can see that the range nerf is not justified. If it does turn out (in 110 arena as you say) that people can simply never escape from sub rogues or kill them in range, then there are many other ways to address it, the most obvious being introducing an ICD on the teleport. However as yet there is no evidence that this is the case.

[Reposed]

Which spec do you use?

I play all of them, but the specs that see the most play time for me are Affliction & Fire.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the whole point of the nerf. It's ridiculous that nobodies gap openers are working against Sub rogues.

The same gap openers that worked before work now as well too, especially with my Mage, as now I don't even need blow one of my charges of Frost Nova (have 2 for those who don't play Mage) before Blinking. If Rogue blows Cloak of Shadows to get out of root, I can now Blink and he can Shadowstep (but not Shadowstrike), and I can either wait out Cloak and then re-root, or I can use one of my charges of Ice Block (again, have 2 of these as well). In fact, these days I have been taking Shimmer (gives two charges of Blink as well), since I no longer have to worry about rooting the rogue before Blink every time...it feels like Mages once again hard counter Rogues (especially in instanced PvP where it seems like Sub damage is gutted).

[shaunika123]

sub still seems fine in pvp, just a bit less mongo, altough now that SS range is nerfed we can use a little buff to it's damage since that's the only reason it's low in the first place

[Conformist]

sub still seems fine in pvp, just a bit less mongo, altough now that SS range is nerfed we can use a little buff to it's damage since that's the only reason it's low in the first place

This is the real issue for sub at 100. Shit damage. But we'll see how that works out at 110.