The Horde's performance at Broken Shore is quite pathetic

[HTowN]

Then how did he summon a bridge made out of earth in the Broken Shore scenario?

He meant Thrall isn't the all-powerful shaman who could summon lightning and earthquake anymore. He is just a basic shaman now.

[Derah]

You mean, the same "Lok'tar Ogar" that brought Garrosh his eventual downfall? Maybe just a bit too much pride in your soup.

Garrosh's interpretation of that phrase was a highly bastardized version of it.

In his warped mind, Lok'tar Ogar meant two things.

1: Victory or death = You succeed or I kill you

and

2: We charge suicidally, fuck plans, fuck strategy, kill alliance ARGH ARGH!!!!!!!

It was precisely his stubborn nature and piss poor interpretation of what these words meant that made him a failure of a warchief. He wasn't even well versed in orc rites and tradition, as Cairne had to explain to him the actual meaning of Mak'gora and what the rules were and what the process was.

[Deleted]

If you're blaming the Horde in some way, then I don't agree with you. Unless you were just rating the cinematics? If not, another user sums it up pretty nicely.

That is so wrong. On point 3, it was part of the plan. The horde failing on the broken shore wasn't part of the plan.

The horde looked bad and was bad because Sylvanas was simply unable to recognise that they couldn't hold on and inform Wrynn that they had to retreat to give the alliance a chance to do the same. Ego lost the day and it's why theres no excuse for the horde in this situation.

On and don't give me the horn BS. The horn was the action, not the warning. Wrynn was chargin in the front lines when the horn just happened. No warning whatsoever. Theres is no evading this incompetence. Whatever percursors as to why the horde had to retreat are irrelevent. They weren't good allies to the alliance because they were unable to communicate a simple line "we are beeing overrun we have to retreat". Had that happened everyone would be home safe.

[Zaanm4n]

You wanted to talk about pathetic? There, we talked about pathetic. You and your alliance are fucking pathetic.

that moment when you realize OP just got buttfucked by a barrage of valid points.

[anaxie]

I honestly don't mid anduin to become a strong alliance character, i hope blizzard won't fuck this up by making Genn or Jaina or Magni a center of attention for alliance

Magni isn't alliance. Magni is going for a higher calling like all those that have left a factions bullshit pettyness

[JustRob]

Garrosh's interpretation of that phrase was a highly bastardized version of it.

In his warped mind, Lok'tar Ogar meant two things.

1: Victory or death = You succeed or I kill you

and

2: We charge suicidally, fuck plans, fuck strategy, kill alliance ARGH ARGH!!!!!!!

It was precisely his stubborn nature and piss poor interpretation of what these words meant that made him a failure of a warchief. He wasn't even well versed in orc rites and tradition, as Cairne had to explain to him the actual meaning of Mak'gora and what the rules were and what the process was.

Garrosh is the only orc who had balls of steel in this game. He failed as a warchief because nobody would give him a chance and from the very first moment at least two other faction leaders mistrusted him, and one already threatened to kill him. Vol'jin and Cairne allowed themselves to be alienated far too easily and never tried to connect with Garrosh. And then Garrosh went down a wrong path because he felt like he couldn't depend on anyone.

"We die, bloody and thrashing on the field of battle, like true orcs SHOULD."

The rest of the Horde doesn't have half the pride or the courage Garrosh did.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Garrosh is the only orc who had balls of steel in this game. He failed as a warchief because nobody would give him a chance and from the very first moment at least two other faction leaders mistrusted him, and one already threatened to kill him. Vol'jin and Cairne allowed themselves to be alienated far too easily and never tried to connect with Garrosh. And then Garrosh went down a wrong path because he felt like he couldn't depend on anyone.

"We die, bloody and thrashing on the field of battle, like true orcs SHOULD."

The rest of the Horde doesn't have half the pride or the courage Garrosh did.

So you honestly think that the Horde Dying, and then Varian still dying, and the Alliance failing because it by no means could fight the legion by itself is a better story?

[JustRob]

So you honestly think that the Horde Dying, and then Varian still dying, and the Alliance failing because it by no means could fight the legion by itself is a better story?

First of all I think they are idiots who went in completely oblivious about what they were up against (both the Alliance and the Horde), but I do think they gave up far too easily. Baine could still fight, Thrall clearly wasn't wounded that badly, Sylvanas could still fight. Vol'jin made a crucial fuck up and as the warchief humiliated his troops by being the one to get stabbed down first. A val'kyr could have flown him off and the rest could have kept fighting until they actually had to retreat.

I really miss Garrosh, I wish they hadn't fucked him up and made him a raid boss. He was such a badass. The son of Hellscream, nobody was fit better to lead the Horde.

[Northy]

The Jaylock of lore. hehe

[xezar]

I'd be one to agree the Horde's performance was kinda lame, but let's face it, it was mostly done to give the Alliance some fist bumping. Whether or not that actually worked considering the "main leader" they kept trying to badly build up more dies while all the horde leaders survived (at least strictly in shown content, do Alliance players even see Vol'jin die and Sylvanas become Warchief?) is debatable.

[JustRob]

I'd be one to agree the Horde's performance was kinda lame, but let's face it, it was mostly done to give the Alliance some fist bumping. Whether or not that actually worked considering the "main leader" they kept trying to badly build up more dies while all the horde leaders survived (at least strictly in shown content, do Alliance players even see Vol'jin die and Sylvanas become Warchief?) is debatable.

I guess you're right, the Horde got a lot of badass moments in the past expansions and I shouldn't really complain that finally the Alliance got a turn.

[Derah]

Garrosh is the only orc who had balls of steel in this game.

I think you're confusing "balls of steel" with "Shit for brains".

He failed as a warchief because nobody would give him a chance

No, he failed as a warchief because he hated anyone who wasn't orc, and tried to kill his own people, as well as he failed to see that the horde is more than just orcs at this point. It ceased to be about just orcs since the moment Doomhammer brought the goblins and the trolls into it.

He saw only to the needs of other orcs, and only of orcs who agreed with him.

I feel that you only like him, because he represented how you wish all orcs were in this game. Brutish, warmongering, bloodthirsty assholes for the alliance to put down.

But the horde, the actual horde, as was reformed by Thrall when he broke the orcs free from the internments camps, when he rescued the darkspear from the sea witch, when he saved the tauren from the centaurs is not a warmongering machine hellbent on world domination.

In Thrall's own words on the Heroes of the Storm trailer, the horde is: "A weapon, to break the chains of oppression. A bastion, for the hunted, and the lost. A family, bound by blood and honor. And when our enemies do not give us peace? WE WILL GIVE THEM WAR!!!!!!!".

The rest of the Horde doesn't have half the pride or the courage Garrosh did.

Pride.... HA!!! that's a good one. From the orc who tried to impose a worse form of slavery on the horde than the legion. Old gods for fucks sakes........

[Forgottenone]

First of all I think they are idiots who went in completely oblivious about what they were up against (both the Alliance and the Horde), but I do think they gave up far too easily. Baine could still fight, Thrall clearly wasn't wounded that badly, Sylvanas could still fight. Vol'jin made a crucial fuck up and as the warchief humiliated his troops by being the one to get stabbed down first. A val'kyr could have flown him off and the rest could have kept fighting until they actually had to retreat.

I really miss Garrosh, I wish they hadn't fucked him up and made him a raid boss. He was such a badass. The son of Hellscream, nobody was fit better to lead the Horde.

Problem with this is they begin to drastically raise their chance of dying and losing major leaders. The Horde would have MAYBE lasted a tiny bit longer, but would it have been worth it? If Garrosh had been there he would NOT have worked with the Alliance, he would have used that opportunity to attack and caused a three way battle which would have resulted in the Legion killing everyone.

Anyways, everyone was doomed to fail. The Horde should have sent something to let the Alliance know they are retreating, the Alliance should of retreated a lot sooner. Going by the in-game fight, they had ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE. There was literally everyone demon raid boss with Gul'dan.

[Awelon]

I wonder why the Alliance and the Horde didn't use some crazy Gnomish/Goblin communication tech during the attack on the Broken Shores. I mean, like you know, they could've actually relay information.

[Deleted]

Because in Hyjal, the way they arranged their forces, the legion would be picking off the alliance, the horde, and the night elves separately. The plan was still for each side to buy time to Malfurion by holding off the legion forces, and retreating when overwhelmed.

Exactly like in the broken shore. The horde didn't "abandon" the alliance. They provided cover for the alliance until they were overwhelmed, and then they withdrew.

Not exactly. In hyjal the goal was to stall time for a superbomb to unleash. On broken shore it was if the flank left failed the other failed as well, their was no superbomb. The horde covered the rear and without it alliance was toast. In hyjal everyone covered the front.

You know nothing about orcs, or orc culture or the meaning behind Lok'tar Ogar.

Lok'tar Ogar, Victory or Death, is applied to WARS, not battles. Name me a single war where every single battle was won. Go on, I'm waiting.

Even in the first, second and third war, the horde won and lost battles, yet their motto of Victory or Death was maintained because they fought to the end, they didn't capitulate, nor did they surrender. When the orcs tried to conquer lordaeron, they came inches away from victory, but they were betrayed by Gul'dan who took their forces off to the tomb of sargeras, and so that was a battle were the orcs were forced to retreat.

That battle costed them the war, but rather than surrender, and negotiate with the alliance, the orcs retreated to blackrock mountain, were they made a final stand, and simply fought the alliance until almost all of them died.

THAT is the meaning behind Lok'tar Ogar. It means you don't go down easy, you go down biting, and hitting, and chewing, and slicing all the way to the floor. And that's EXACTLY how the horde, and the orcs, behaved in the broken shore.

They didn't retreat the instant things began to look bad, they waited until they were almost dead before sounding the retreat, unlike the alliance who ran away the second they saw the tide of battle turning against them.

Your making an assumption i don't know anything. What your giving is a great interpretation which is also part of it. They cry lok'tar O'gar as a charge as well not as a desperate defense.

The orcs do look down on retreating, i've seen several times during questing where they look down on others for being carefull, not wanting to fight or coming back from a lost battle (is a certain loss of honor). The orcs can be a bit hypocritical with their warrior code similiar to klingons. It's also a bit hard sometimes especially in rule of cool and horde style.

They didn't retreat the instant things began to look bad, they waited until they were almost dead before sounding the retreat, unlike the alliance who ran away the second they saw the tide of battle turning against them.

Please don't go in to single mindedness far fetch comments it only prevents a conversation where you highlight both sides. You only posted a single side.

Just for safety before you go their:

Havn't done horde side but my stance hasn't really changed. The Horde didn't do antyhing wrong (except being cowards by orc standards), but neither is the alliance wrong from their perspective, it makes sense even if they talked with the horde afterwards based on the past and the great loss.

Admittingly i put the orc standard a bit harsher but that was their viewpoint. You could argue that viewpoint died with Garrosh.
It depends a bit on the clan, clan leader and age of the orc warrior (saurfang doesn't look at it like that). Warsong clan deffinitly looks at it like that.

- - - Updated - - -

First of all I think they are idiots who went in completely oblivious about what they were up against (both the Alliance and the Horde), but I do think they gave up far too easily. Baine could still fight, Thrall clearly wasn't wounded that badly, Sylvanas could still fight. Vol'jin made a crucial fuck up and as the warchief humiliated his troops by being the one to get stabbed down first. A val'kyr could have flown him off and the rest could have kept fighting until they actually had to retreat.

Problem with legion is, once they gain a foothold their army grows extremely fast. It's a wonder that we had a chance in The Burning Crusade, the demons had a foothold their for long and it's puzzling how the legion got a foothold in legion to begin with.

Best explanation, and now im making assumptions, why some footholds can't gain new armies fast might be that it's dependant on powerfull leylines. It's still weird Gul'dan was able to do it so fast. It was also odd how archimond could plob out a newly created portal.

But going with Warcraft 3, archimond was summoned through a ritual on a powerfull source of mage, right?
In that version the legion connection to Azeroth was through archimond and when he died that connection was lost preventing them from getting massive numbers. In Legion the connection seem to be through a portal on probably a powerfull ley-line. T

[JustRob]

I think you're confusing "balls of steel" with "Shit for brains".



No, he failed as a warchief because he hated anyone who wasn't orc, and tried to kill his own people, as well as he failed to see that the horde is more than just orcs at this point. It ceased to be about just orcs since the moment Doomhammer brought the goblins and the trolls into it.

He saw only to the needs of other orcs, and only of orcs who agreed with him.

I feel that you only like him, because he represented how you wish all orcs were in this game. Brutish, warmongering, bloodthirsty assholes for the alliance to put down.

But the horde, the actual horde, as was reformed by Thrall when he broke the orcs free from the internments camps, when he rescued the darkspear from the sea witch, when he saved the tauren from the centaurs is not a warmongering machine hellbent on world domination.

In Thrall's own words on the Heroes of the Storm trailer, the horde is: "A weapon, to break the chains of oppression. A bastion, for the hunted, and the lost. A family, bound by blood and honor. And when our enemies do not give us peace? WE WILL GIVE THEM WAR!!!!!!!".



Pride.... HA!!! that's a good one. From the orc who tried to impose a worse form of slavery on the horde than the legion. Old gods for fucks sakes........

Garrosh didn't hate the other races. He gave them a legitimate chance several times. Even at the very end, he didn't have an inherent hate for them. He just felt like he couldn't trust them anymore because time and time again they would go against his orders. Every time Garrosh needed counsel, every time he made a decision and he needed guidance the most, Vol'jin and Cairne shunned away instead of guiding him like they promised Thrall. They gave up on him far too easily, and Vol'jin never had any faith to begin with.

I won't say Garrosh did nothing wrong, because he did. But he's not the only one to blame for what happened.

[Derah]

Garrosh didn't hate the other races.

Yes he did. One of the quotes during his fight is

"My people should have taken this world long ago during the First War, but they fell to corruption in their weakness. They allowed the pitiful races of Azeroth to join the Horde. I will succeed where they have failed, and no power in this world can stop me!"

He hated all the non-orcs in the horde, and wished to purge the horde of them.

He gave them a legitimate chance several times.

If by "Legitimate chance" you mean "Tried to have them killed with an Uriah Gambit" then yeah, he gave them chances alright. He sends the forsaken into gilneas so they die from attrition, then fumes with anger when sylvanas manages to find a way to resupply their numbers, he sends the blood elves into ambushes with no backup, yet fumes with anger when they stubbornly survive, he sends his goons to exterminate the trolls in the echo isles, but he rages like a madman when they dare to refuse to lay down.

Even at the very end, he didn't have an inherent hate for them.

Did ya read that quote above? That's taken straight from his fight in siege of orgrimmar. Down to the bitter end he blamed the other races for everything that ever went wrong with the horde. Worse yet, he was an imbecile who refused to blame himself for his failures as a leader, first laying the blame on other races (which led to the creation of his "True Horde") then laying the blame on warlock corruption (Which led to the creation of his "Iron Horde") because there was always someone else to blame except himself.

He just felt like he couldn't trust them anymore because time and time again they would go against his orders.

He would go against his orders, because his orders were shit. Time and again he proved to be a terrible leader.

Every time Garrosh needed counsel, every time he made a decision and he needed guidance the most, Vol'jin and Cairne shunned away instead of guiding him like they promised Thrall.

Wow, that is some bullshit lenses you have there dude. Vol'jin and Cairne tried their best to guide Garrosh, he was surrounded by people who questioned his worse decisions, but instead of heeding the council of his allies, HE was the one who pushed away anyone who disagreed with him. He surrounded himself exclusively with yesmen and sycophants who would lick his boots and applaud at every single one of his ill-adviced choices, and executed everyone who thought his plans were shit. Vol'jin bore the brunt of his anger because Vol'jin was his harshest critic.

Kelantir Bloodblade was equally against the poorly devised plans of what Garrosh was doing in Theramore, and what was Garrosh's response when someone disliked his course of action? He slapped her hard enough to draw blood. Then later blew her up with a bomb in her inn.

Yes, what a great leader indeed.

They gave up on him far too easily, and Vol'jin never had any faith to begin with.

Ohh yes, because the entire horde errupted in civil war on day 2 of Garrosh's horrible tenure as warchief and- ohh wait NO THEY DIDN'T. For several years the other horde leaders followed garrosh, even as his plans, his actions, and his orders tore apart the horde, besmirched our honor, and set the rest of the world against us. They only went into open rebellion when enough was enough and his madness went into overdrive.

You do realize garrosh was a fucking asshole to every non-orc he met (the only words of praise he gave to someone in the entire duration of MoP and Cata was to the dragonmaw orcs, zaela in particular, but to everyone else he had nothing but insults) from day one, and yet all of the horde followed him because it was their duty. It was only when he turned into literally orc hitler that they rebelled.

But he's not the only one to blame for what happened.

/rolleyes.

Suuuuure blame thrall, blame the other races of the horde, blame the warlocks, blame the fleas. Whatever.

Its funny how many Garrosh apologists came out of the woodworks only AFTER he was dead.

Of course, the same people praising Garrosh and basically dumping ALL of his screw-ups on Thrall's feet conveniently forget that while Thrall appointed Garrosh as Warchief without him being ready for it, he also placed lots of veteran advisers to help and guide him in the role.

Advisers that Garrosh proceeded to ignore (Saurfang, Eitrigg), treat like shit (Gallywix, Lor'themar), systematically alienate (Cairne, Baine, Sylvanas), assassinate (Kelantir, Frandis) and attempt to assassinate via more cowardly ways (Vol'jin, the reliquary blood elves in pandaria) like Poisoned dagger to the back, Uriah Gambit, etc. He then replaced these advisers with yes-men that supported all of his ideas and decisions, no matter how poorly thought out or self-defeating they were (see Twilight Highlands intro), and when his poor leadership abilities failed him, he blamed everyone but himself, first pinning the blame on the non-Orc elements of the Horde leading to the creation of his "True Horde" (Orcs only) and then when his "True Horde" was defeated, pinning the blame on warlock corruption, leading to the creation of his "Iron Horde" (Non-corrupted orcs only)

And then when his uncorrupted Iron Horde was defeated blaming Thrall of all people for his failures. The very man who lifted him up from the brink of despair, redeemed the image of his father, fixed his broken self-esteem, and gave him everything when he had nothing.

But sure, he's an innocent little dove, he's not to blame for anything.

[JustRob]

I'm not gonna do these quote wars, let's agree to disagree. You wonder why I don't reply to your posts? Because you write fucking essays.

[Derah]

I'm not gonna do these quote wars, let's agree to disagree. You wonder why I don't reply to your posts? Because you write fucking essays.

Awww what's wrong? afraid of a little reading?

If my posts are long, is because I don't do that thing you do which is to bluntly say "you're wrong" and basically leave it at that. When I say you're wrong, I provide evidence, I provide names, I provide events, I provide sources, I back my shit up with actual facts, not with hot air wrapped in rose tinted glasses.

[JustRob]

Awww what's wrong? afraid of a little reading?

If my posts are long, is because I don't do that thing you do which is to bluntly say "you're wrong" and basically leave it at that. When I say you're wrong, I provide evidence, I provide names, I provide events, I provide sources, I back my shit up with actual facts, not with hot air wrapped in rose tinted glasses.

Ain't nobody got time for dat