How powerful is Kiljaedan ?

[The Professional]

Lich King/Sargeras/Titan Void Monster>>>Void Lords/Kil'jaeden/Dreadlord Master>>>Elemental Lords/Archimonde/Gul'dan/Khadgar>>>Deathwing/Mannaroth/Illidan/Cenarius/Grom Hellscream

[Wildmoon]

I also would like to point out that just because A beats B it does not imply that A is stronger than B. Grom was not stronger than Mannoroth. Malfurion was not stronger than Archimonde. Illidan would not be stronger than KJ even if his plan succeeded. Powerful beings in WarCraft tend to be stupid. Just look at Azgoth in Harbingers: Illidan. He was killed while sniffing Kor'vas.

The implication that one is stronger could only be drawn from a fight like Malorne vs Archimonde or shits like that.

[Ghazan Julio]

KJ is the right hand of Sargeras, enough said.

[The Professional]

KJ is the right hand of Sargeras, enough said.

Kil'jaeden is the Deceiver.

[TheFirstOnes]

Kil'jaeden is the Deceiver.

Yah, and the right hand of sargeras...

Oh wait....taking that food away from you now...you've been fed enough.

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I also would like to point out that just because A beats B it does not imply that A is stronger than B. Grom was not stronger than Mannoroth. Malfurion was not stronger than Archimonde. Illidan would not be stronger than KJ even if his plan succeeded. Powerful beings in WarCraft tend to be stupid. Just look at Azgoth in Harbingers: Illidan. He was killed while sniffing Kor'vas.

The implication that one is stronger could only be drawn from a fight like Malorne vs Archimonde or shits like that.

Sargeras fought the pantheon 5v1 and won, but then again, the pantheon were weak to fel, along with the fact that sargeras gained a MASSIVE buff up alone while being implanted with fel energies surrounding his very physical form. Grommash did 2 lucky af shots. archimonde was powerful as well, so no shit that malourne died. And azgoth is one of those "Talk" demons, AKA the demons that are forgotten about after 1 minutes of screentime.

[Lastgope]

Lich King/Sargeras/Titan Void Monster>>>Void Lords/Kil'jaeden/Dreadlord Master>>>Elemental Lords/Archimonde/Gul'dan/Khadgar>>>Deathwing/Mannaroth/Illidan/Cenarius/Grom Hellscream

Damn I solo the strongest character in (your shitty opinion) the Universe every week?

[TheFirstOnes]

Damn I solo the strongest character in (your shitty opinion) the Universe every week?

Don't feed him, it's WAY PAST desert time. Wanna kill em?

[Qualia]

This is why I challenge you. You read books and then come on forums and inject your own hyperbole into the mix, spreading misinformation. He was not on his "dead bed" or death bed, is what I presume you meant. This is the same exact thing you were doing with Velen's short story in another thread. And because you state you read the books people believe you. I read the Illidan book unlike the Velen short story, and I can assure you, Illidan was not on his death bed during the events at the Black Temple. Literally or figuratively.

Yes, he was. Want a quote directly from the book? Here are all the descriptions about Illidan strength from the moment he escaped from Auchidoun, until the moment we face him

Illidan’s legs felt rubbery and his head spun. Strength drained out of him faster and faster, and it was all he could do to restrain the growing power of the soul siphon. He had not foreseen this. He had never imagined falling in this dark place. He was going to die here, and all his schemes would come to naught. <...> He fell to his knees as the life drained out of him. Slowly, the last gem filled.

Hold on. Hold on. Agony racked Illidan’s body as bolts of dark energy lashed him. <...> Chest heaving, he settled himself on the cold stone of his sanctum. Sweat dripped down his brow. He could barely breathe. The room swirled around him and consciousness slipped away.
<...>
Illidan sat on the throne in his council chamber. It had been weeks since his return from Auchindoun and still he was weak. His power had not returned to anything like what it had been before his use of the soul siphon.
<...>
Illidan returned to his casting chamber. His head ached. His body felt weak. Doubts assailed him from every side.
<...>
Wearily Illidan emerged into his council chamber. The demon hunters were away. He had done all he could. He wished he could have gone with them, but he had needed to remain behind as one mystical pole of the portal, to hold the way open.
Now it was only a matter of waiting. Holding open that portal had taken almost all his strength and all the power within the soul siphon.

So, there you go. Illidan was literally dying in Auchindoun. He managed to escape after filling the three soul gems, and tried to recover, but he had never recovered anywhere near what he was since then - and was still weak when we started the assault on the Black Temple. Then he had to use almost all of his remain strength to keep the portal open for the Demon Hunters. If that wasn't "on his death bed" - obviously figuratively, anyone can tell that, which means near the point of death; just in case you aren't even aware of the meaning - feel free to give me any quote that contradicts it. Anything that implied he was healthy, or strong, or anywhere near he usually was, or wasn't using almost all of his strength for something else. Please enlighten us. Otherwise, I must doubt your reading comprehension because, for some reasons, you apparently didn't see that Illidan was at such a terrible state even after reading the book.

Everyone, including you and me, can claim that he / she read the book (whatever book it is). People didn't trust me because of my claims that I read the book. People trusted what I posted because I gave them evidences directly from the book - just like in Velen's thread. There are many people who have access to official information here - if I'm so wrong, one'd expect that someone else would have stepped up and corrected me with quotes (which I'd welcome it, I'm open to correct my misunderstanding if there is any). Now, if you are saying I'm spreading misinformation - go ahead and give us the evidences, please.

[ultramini]

Lich King/Sargeras/Titan Void Monster>>>Void Lords/Kil'jaeden/Dreadlord Master>>>Elemental Lords/Archimonde/Gul'dan/Khadgar>>>Deathwing/Mannaroth/Illidan/Cenarius/Grom Hellscream

The big 4 are more like : Sargeras >>>> Deathwing >= Kil'jeaden >= Archimonde

It took sargeras and the old gods a considerable amount of force and time to push deathwing away from the well of eternity in WOTA. Most valuable asset imo as it disrupt sargeras concentration and ultimately save Azeroth from total annihilation. A feat no other could have accoomplish in WOTA, not even azshara.

[Qualia]

It took sargeras and the old gods a considerable amount of force and time to push deathwing away from the well of eternity in WOTA. Most valuable asset imo as it disrupt sargeras concentration and ultimately save Azeroth from total annihilation. A feat no other could have accoomplish in WOTA, not even azshara.

That wasn't what disrupted Sargeras' concentration, though. Neither did they (Sargeras / OGs) spend "a considerable amount of force and time" to push Deathwing away. Sargeras used magic through the portal, greatly damaged Deathwing beyond comprehension, but he (DW) tenaciously pushed ahead. Then the OGs physically gave Deathwing - who was already weakened and damaged - a whack, and that was it.

[Night Wind]

The avatar and sig. are simply the cherry on the top, your blatant fanboism is proven by your legendary stubborness in arguing gibberish, which goes back way before all these things.

But hey, maybe you've finally seen the Light and learned how to properly argue with people. That would be a bless.

Lol, you are so salty. Vol'jin's pathetic death must have really rustled your jimmies.

[MikeBogina]

if summoned to a neutral plan of existence.

Deathwing > Arthas(not restricted) > Kil'Jaeden > Azshara

I don't really get why people feel the need to add that KJ made the Lich King armor and that that makes him stronger than the Lich King that absorbed countless souls and merged with arthas.

1. A child can surpass a parent.
2. A tool is more efficient at a job than the creator, hence why the tool is made.

The best example I guess I could use is Tony Stark created Ultron. Ultron and Ner'zhul both broke their shackles, their limitations and became far more powerful and dangerous than intended.

[Deleted]

Just tipping here, reminding you people that the Lich King toyed with the most powerful heroes of the world for almost 2 years, instakilled them when satisfied, and needed a "deus-ex machina miracle" to be put down. The same heroes who apparently with some help zerged Illidan, Deathwing, half of KJ and Archimonde (x2).

Bad storytelling aside, I guess there is no doubt that on a power level the only real discussion here, putting aside Sargeras, is between KJ, Azshara and N'Ztoh.

[Deleted]

These threads are always full of - "KJ MADE ARTHAS SO ARTHAS CAN'T BE MORE POWERFUL LOL!!11!!"

Because no teacher has ever been outdone by their student, right? They're also completely different schools of magic. KJ didn't create undeath, he just used it.

[Qualia]

Deathwing > Arthas(not restricted) > Kil'Jaeden > Azshara

I don't really get why people feel the need to add that KJ made the Lich King armor and that that makes him stronger than the Lich King that absorbed countless souls and merged with arthas.

1. A child can surpass a parent.
2. A tool is more efficient at a job than the creator, hence why the tool is made.

While I agree that the created can be more powerful than the creators, I'm not sure how LK Arthas would be more powerful than Kil'Jaeden. We are talking about someone who can destroy a planet with a single spell here. That pretty much put him ahead of any non-Legion villains we ever had, at least based on what they have done.

What indicated that Lich King would more powerful than KJ anyway? Has he ever been able to destroy a continent, much less a planet? Even his supposedly sure-kill spells (that he used in three occasions in game) weren't even sure-kill - it didn't kill some NPCs (first time at Light Hope Chapel), can be avoided / resisted (questing), or only dealt a massive amount of damage (ICC). Moreover, he is in a bad state the moment his weapon is destroyed - is it even that durable, anyway?
If the Legion is able to toy with a dead Azeroth, conquered by a Lich King even more terrible than Arthas in Velen's vision, would Arthas be really that threatening to KJ? Personally, I think not.

Just tipping here, reminding you people that the Lich King toyed with the most powerful heroes of the world for almost 2 years, instakilled them when satisfied, and needed a "deus-ex machina miracle" to be put down. The same heroes who apparently with some help zerged Illidan, Deathwing, half of KJ and Archimonde (x2).

Bad storytelling aside, I guess there is no doubt that on a power level the only real discussion here, putting aside Sargeras, is between KJ, Azshara and N'Ztoh.

While we are the same heroes, the circumstances are different, though. We faced LK by ourselves + Tyrion only (with a weapon made from what was supposed to be pieces of a Naaru). On the other hand, we got the help of the Aspects + the Dragon Soul to fight against Deathwing. We had the assistance of the incarnation of the Sunwell (Aveena) to push KJ back. We never defeat Archimonde @ Hyjal lore-wise, we just bought time for the wisp to explode on him. Lastly, we faced KJ at HFC with the help of Y'rel, Khadgar & Grom, plus we all were empowered by Naaru (who are actually powerful beings even though they haven't done anything in game) and / or the elements of Draenor.

[minteK917]

Except Arthas was never a student of KJ. His entire power comes from two items infused with magic by KJ. Its closer to someone claiming they are a flight expert because they sit in a plane. The pilot was the expert, not you. For all we know KJ could as easily stop frostmourn and the helm of domination from working (he made them). Making Arthas powerless again.

[Mehrunes]

While I agree that the created can be more powerful than the creators, I'm not sure how LK Arthas would be more powerful than Kil'Jaeden. We are talking about someone who can destroy a planet with a single spell here. That pretty much put him ahead of any non-Legion villains we ever had, at least based on what they have done.

Deatwhing's Cataclysm spell would presumably destroy Azeroth judging by his text and reactions of the Aspects.

What indicated that Lich King would more powerful than KJ anyway? Has he ever been able to destroy a continent, much less a planet? Even his supposedly sure-kill spells (that he used in three occasions in game) weren't even sure-kill - it didn't kill some NPCs (first time at Light Hope Chapel), can be avoided / resisted (questing), or only dealt a massive amount of damage (ICC). Moreover, he is in a bad state the moment his weapon is destroyed - is it even that durable, anyway?
If the Legion is able to toy with a dead Azeroth, conquered by a Lich King even more terrible than Arthas in Velen's vision, would Arthas be really that threatening to KJ? Personally, I think not.

Yeah, Velen's vision should be a definite end to people blowing Lich King out of proportion. I'd say it's possible that he has better power scaling than KJ and with enough souls he could grow stronger than him in much shorter period of time, but he'd need more than one world to achieve that. Which made me think lately that if Kairoz really wanted a multiversal weapon against the Legion he should have went with Infinite Scourge.

[MikeBogina]

While I agree that the created can be more powerful than the creators, I'm not sure how LK Arthas would be more powerful than Kil'Jaeden. We are talking about someone who can destroy a planet with a single spell here. That pretty much put him ahead of any non-Legion villains we ever had, at least based on what they have done.

Straight out destroying a planet? No I don't think anyone has that lvl of power besides Titans and possibly Old Gods. If you referring to an Eredar destroying a planet in a vision, that lacks a lot of context.

We've seen few times of people causing tons of destruction, or doing something like create a volcano or lift an island out of the ocean, that didn't reflect their actual combat power. AU Gul'dan is probably the stronger of the 2, but he couldn't defeat Khadgar in combat, and we've never seen Khadgar do anything on the scale of Gul'dan. And then we have Ner'zhul who destroyed a planet with a single spell, albeit on accident, but it was still his doing and still didn't reflect his lvl of power.

What indicated that Lich King would more powerful than KJ anyway? Has he ever been able to destroy a continent, much less a planet? Even his supposedly sure-kill spells (that he used in three occasions in game) weren't even sure-kill - it didn't kill some NPCs (first time at Light Hope Chapel), can be avoided / resisted (questing), or only dealt a massive amount of damage (ICC). Moreover, he is in a bad state the moment his weapon is destroyed - is it even that durable, anyway?

We can only look at what they've done and we've fought both. Kil'Jaeden tried everything to beat us and couldn't. Those same adventurers more powerful, were given a handicap and they still couldn't beat Arthas. It's plain and simple, lore-wise, Arthas could have killed everyone and Tirion in a single blow, but he didn't. He let them give it their all and beat on him till he was satisfied.

Frostmourne was held up high, using it's power when Tirion struck it with Ashbringer, a weapon that already has an extreme advantage over decay and on top of that, was being empowered by the Light even further. I'd love to see Kil'jaeden's neck try to not split in that same situation. Also remember that Grommash, not once, but twice killed Mannoroth with an ordinary axe(Sexy af axe) and that dude was stronger than your average Eredar.

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Which made me think lately that if Kairoz really wanted a multiversal weapon against the Legion he should have went with Infinite Scourge.

It makes ya wonder what that Necromancer in Draenor was up to, the one who may or may not have been working with Wrathion and Kairoz.

[Scyclone]

Ahhh... logged back in to input some information.

Azeroth (Technically) > Void Lords (Potentially) > Sargeras > N'zoth = Other Titans* > Kil'Jaeden > Archimonde = Deathwing > Azshara > Arthas = Illidan (Legion+) = Guardian > Guldan (Legion) = Khadgar > Illidan (Past) = Guldan (Past) > Mannoroth

Azeroth (and technically fragmented amongst the heroes) is the strongest on this char, but Azeroth is also the weakest due to the dormant state.

Void Lords are a considerable threat, specifically in that Sargeras has been struggling to find a way to deal with them.

N'zoth, being the only remaining Old God at the moment, is still very much a threat but at the same time, vulnerible to someone like Sargeras.

There could be other titans, and they relatively were on equal standing with the old gods.

KJ, basically the defacto leader of the legion while Sargeras is chilling in Space Mexico somewhere. Hes physically weaker than Archimonde, but much more tactful and possesses a vast array of magic that Archimonde cannot even approach.

Archimonde is the physical enforcer to KJs mental prowess, Deathwing is roughly on a similar level of calamity (barring some old god corruption manipulation).

Azshara is roughly a bit weaker than Deathwing but a bit stronger than most of the others below her. The specific point of note, is that she is probably stronger than the Guardians were at their peak and wouldn't really struggle versus the lich king. That said... she is far from untouchable: During an Azsuna questline, you encounter Azshara and she was actually struck (albeit for meager damage) by magic from a ghost that was only slightly stronger than a mage character / and not really close to people such as Jaina or Khadgar. Not a great benchmark, but Azshara isn't untouchable at this point.

Arthas was a small bit stronger than Illidan (granted, Arthas fought Illidan while weakened) but it would generally point that Arthas at full was a decent bit stronger than Illidan. However... there is a lot left to tell about Illidans story and there's a good chance he will come out of this much stronger than he used to be. Doubly so if Xe'ra has anything to do with it.

I'd wager that Medivh and Aegwynn would be relatively on par with the Lich King, there is the potential that they'd be stronger than Arthas, but I still think that Azshara may still be a few rungs above them.

Guldan (Legion) - With the deterioration of his physical form, Guldan is starting to reach his limits. He struggled horribly against Khadgar in the Tomb of Sargeras and it wasn't until he tapped into the power of the tomb itself that he managed to even fend him off. That said, Guldan easily overpowered Khadgar with the tombs energies, but he shortly lost that power. At this point, I think KJ has loosened the leash a bit and Guldan has boosted up from where he was initially. That coupled with the Nightwell, will most likely make Guldan formidible even compared to Khadgar. So I imagine he will be somewhere in between the two different levels of power that he was in the Tomb of Sargeras audios.

Khadgar is on the verge of becoming a Guardian in his own right already, and while he rejected the allure of a Guardian-like power, he is no slouch in any means of strength. Khadgar was stronger than Guldan initially, though Guldan has closed that gap and perhaps exceeded it some.

Illidan (Past) and Guldan (Past), both are roughly where they have been at that point in time. Illidan lost to Arthas, Guldan lost to Khadgar. Both of which were not really in a situation to handle the heroes that came their way either. Both will receive some power boosts in legion, tho Guldan's will probably be short lived.

Mannoroth, mostly since someone tossed him in a list, is the weakest of the bunch. Hes strong from a standard perspective, but Guldan would be able to utilize him as needed. (Not counting Mythic mechanics :P ) Mannoroth proved to be a foot note on the progress to facing down Archimonde. He wouldn't stand a chance against Arthas, Azshara or the like. And would only prove to be a nuisance against Guldan or Khadgar.

[MikeBogina]

Sargeras > N'zoth = Other Titans*

I don't really agree with your order, but this part I wanted to focus on. I used to believe 1v1 Old Gods could take a single Titan, believing there was numerous unnamed ones, but that changed when they clarified that there was only the titans named and the rest were just their armies. Aman'thul ripped the strongest of the Old Gods out of Azeroth which killed it(worst lore retcon ever!!!) so I guess it's safe to assume any of the other Titans could do the same, especially to N'zoth the weakest of the 4 Old Gods(so far) on Azeroth.

Also Sargeras, it's said was only able to kill the other Titans because fel was more effective on Titans who were more about that arcane. If he was still a regular Titan, he wouldn't have soloed them.