Why do Jaina and Genn get so much shit?

[Chinese Bootlickers]

I think that those 2 are currently the best lore characters in the game.

This, since the last 2 are dead now.

[De Lupe]

My only issue with Jaina is the complete abandonment of her relationships with the Horde characters she actually considered friends. Her rage against Garrosh was justified. I'm even willing to accept her anger towards the Horde. But the one thing that I refuse to accept is that Jaina would throw Thrall and Baine under the bus too. She bonded with them. She considered them friends. Hell, she funded the counterattack against Magatha that lead to Baine taking back Thunder Bluff.

And now? Jaina just lumps ALL members of the Horde into one big "us vs them" category with no exceptions to those she KNOWS to be better. THAT is what I refuse to accept about the new Jaina. Everything else? I'm okay with her keeping.

[lockybalboa]

Im alliance, Jaina is an idiot. She is not the wise person from WC3. Tyrande seen more shit then Jaina ever will, she will cooperate to save azeroth.

The turn of events in WC3 was just the beginning. The Horde antagonized her time and time again until she reached her breaking point. Simple as that. How do you define "wise characters"? Passive wusses like Anduin? Who will just take any shit dished out by anyone, say "thank you" and make peace? Sorry that's just bad writing and horrible characterization. Characters like that have no depth at all. No inner self, and totally flattened by the PC morality imposed by Horde-biased Metzen and his writing team which seems to only apply to Alliance characters.

[Deleted]

Genn I have never liked. The Scourge are spreading help us Genn! Genn was all like 'Screw you guys, I'm building a wall'. Oh shit worgen curse spreading, well we can deal with that. Fuck Cataclysm, my wall! Who let all these undead in? NOOO! MY SON! THEY ALL MUST DIE! MAH REVENGE!

I don't get your argument here.
His reaction was perfectly fine and most likely the best way of action. You know how fighting the scourge worked out for Lordaeron so what could he have done?
And he treid to deal with the Worgen curse himself, what where his options? Ask the forsaken for help? And it most likely would have worked out if the cataclysm hadn't destroyed the wall and the undead hadn't gone out of their way to destroy them all just because they can.

Im alliance, Jaina is an idiot. She is not the wise person from WC3. Tyrande seen more shit then Jaina ever will, she will cooperate to save azeroth.

Tyrande has seen more shit from the Legion, not from the horde. All she had ever to worry about was Ashenvale and that is out of the way now.

And then what?
They tried to take down the Forsaken.. and lost.
They needed help to take Orgrimmar.
The Alliance would absolutely lose everything they have.

"Needed help to take Orgrimmar." How's that? As far as i recall Vol'jin didn't to a whole lot until we arrived.
They got help from the rebels, doesn't mean they needed it. But why reject help? Out of pride? When you let more of your soldiers die out of pried you are not worthy of your command.

[Heladys]

Because the horde can't take it when their warmongering xenophobic racism is turned back on them and they like it even less when their own actions are thrown back in their faces as the cause.

[Poppincaps]

I didn't know that people had a huge problem with Genn honestly.

I think the thing is that it isn't that their anger is unjustified. The Undead attacked Gilneas for no reason other than conquest and killed a bunch of Genn's friends and family. He should be mad. Jaina, a character who wanted peace with the Horde, had her home blown the fuck up by the same Horde she used to defend.

Now, Genn's hatred is more reasonable than Jaina's because the people who hurt him still live. Garrosh is dead, so Jaina needs to calm the fuck down.

What is inexcusable is that these leaders are putting their grudges above THE FUCKING LEGION. I get that they are angry and they have every right to be, but the Legion just came in, whooped our asses, and killed 3 MAJOR POWERFUL LEADERS of 3 large factions. This is not the time to be holding grudges. They are leaders and their actions right now need to be for what is best for their people and what is best for their people is very clearly defeating the Legion.

[Viradiance]

He's a king, but he serves THE ALLIANCE. which is RULED by Anduin now. He's disobeying orders and using his resources for some dumb errand while he should be focused on closing the demon gate(Aka the real reason why we go to Stormheim in the first place)

FWIW, it's not exactly like Sylvanas is there on a mission to stop the Legion either. She's just trying to get more Val'kyr for herself to stave off her totally deserved eternal damnation as long as she can.

[Pull My Finger]

When a character gets more jaded and pragmatic and renounces some of their past ideals due to hardships, we call it bad writing.

Which is incredible nonsense. By your logic, every anti-hero, every ambivalent character and every vengeful villain in the history of storytelling would be results of "bad writing". By your standards, only He-Man and Superman are well-written characters.

[Deleted]

Of Genn, I don't know why people dislike him, he was quite consistent, he always hated the Horde, he wanted to end orcs at the end of the Second War for good. And now it makes sense why he would hate the forsaken.

For Jaina...while she did make sense once, the issue is that she keeps changing. In a book she goes over her hatred, in an in-game event she wants to end the Horde. Then in another in-game even she's willing to work with them, even if she's suspicious... then she wants to kill them all. Overall it seems like they don't know what they want out of her character.

When a character turns stronger and wiser due to hardships, we call it character development.

When a character gets more jaded and pragmatic and renounces some of their past ideals due to hardships, we call it bad writing.

Jaina and Genn are that bad writing. The extreme hardships of losing their family, their land, their friends and family to a clear enemy should have only turned them into better, kinder, more loving people. Just look what happened with Sylvanas after a similar ordeal.

I'm sorry, but how did Sylvannas become a better, kinder, more loving person after what happened to her? If anything, she became more bitter and uncaring and when she did care she felt lots of anger.

I'm not saying that Genn and Jaina are well written, but Sylvannas is surely not a good example for your point and your point does not make sense. When shit happens to you, not everyone turns more loving and kind, some become filled with hatred.

Genn is an idiot, that's why. In legion he's going after the Forsaken instead of The Legion (AFTER Anduin, his new king, tells the Alliance leaders to focus on the Legion and they NEED the Horde to defeat the Legion) Genn is jeopardising that by letting his emotions get in the way

Genn Greymane is the king of Gilneas. Gilneas is not a vassal nation so the only ruler Genn has is himself. Anduin is only Stormwind's king and may have vassals of what's left of Alterac, Lordaeron, Stormgarde (which is mostly villages and small camps). Gilneas however is separated.

Even if Anduin would be made High King, that's just supreme commander so Genn could still ignore him.

He's a king, but he serves THE ALLIANCE. which is RULED by Anduin now. He's disobeying orders and using his resources for some dumb errand while he should be focused on closing the demon gate(Aka the real reason why we go to Stormheim in the first place)

The Alliance is a military pact. Alliance nations can commit troops to it but they can also act outside the Alliance if they wish so. Just like, for example, how France can intervene in ... Libya if they wanted even if NATO didn't.

So no, Genn is not disobeying any orders, he's ignoring advice. Advice from what he sees as a naive child.

It's funny, how Alliance fanbois always tend to forget three key factors.
1: Jaina allowed Alliance troops to use Theramore for landfall in Kalimdor, while she claimed neutrality
2: Nuking Theramore was partly revenge for Jaina's father, completely unprovoked, slaughtered Camp Turajo, adults and children alike. A camp without any military presence..
3: Nuking Theramore was a brilliant strategic move by Garrosh (probably the only sane thing he have ever done), but honor even compelled him to give the citizens of Theramore a weeks notice of the attack. Any civilian casualties are not his fault.

At least we're not twisting facts, like you are:
1. She was working for peace. That's different than neutrality. The USA claims it's working for peace in Syria. By providing equipment to rebels and Kurds. Jaina was clearly against Garrosh but did not intervene directly, she supported the Alliance however.
2. Seriously, Jaina's father? The one Jaina helped kill? Or have you forgatten that? That matter had been forgatten for ages!
Camp Taurajo also had a military presence, this was said several times, deal with it.
3. No, he didn't give any notice, Baine did.
Also, he captured the civilian ships and then used said civilians as target practice and forced them to fight for amusement of his orcs in Orgrimmar. Have you not done SoO?
I will admit, it was a good strategy to destroy much of the Alliance army, but, as you see, the rest of things you said are wrong.

A unity with a clear leader which was Varian Wrynn and now, Anduin Wrynn.



I'm sure he has more power than that. Like c'mon. He can order Jaina to let Horde into Dalaran, but can't stop Genn from starting war himself?

Only commander of armies leader, which was Varian.
Can you tell me where is it stated even that Anduin is the new High King?

And no, he really does not. He can ask nations for support and give advice. They can refuse. If they give him troops, he then can command them however he likes, but nothing more. He can't tell the dwarves to give Stormwind their ore for free (like Garrosh asked Baine for their water for free, for example) or station troops in another nation unless invited (like Garrosh put orcs in Undercity).
Also, I don't know where he ordered Jaina to let Horde into Dalaran, as far as I remember, Khadgar supports the Horde coming back and Jaina is "well fu guys, I'm leaving".

[Deleted]

she becomes femarthas wearing plate slutmog. thats what i want for her at least

[minteK917]

The turn of events in WC3 was just the beginning. The Horde antagonized her time and time again until she reached her breaking point. Simple as that. How do you define "wise characters"? Passive wusses like Anduin? Who will just take any shit dished out by anyone, say "thank you" and make peace? Sorry that's just bad writing and horrible characterization. Characters like that have no depth at all. No inner self, and totally flattened by the PC morality imposed by Horde-biased Metzen and his writing team which seems to only apply to Alliance characters.

Jaina has no depth....... She turned into an idiot over night, switched place with Varian over night. Varian declared WAR. Theramore was never attacked until it was militarized. Theramore was warned one week in advance that it would be destroyed as a military target. The horde never antagonized her, until then. After that Varian became Jaina and Jaina became Varian. For no reason.

[ItachiZaku]

Jainas home got nuked.

Very justifiably so. Genn on the other hand, I actually don't hate him that much. I'm a fan of Sylvanas and The Forsaken, but if we got the Werewolf race, I would have one or two, I'm sure.

[RoboA]

When a character turns stronger and wiser due to hardships, we call it character development.

When a character gets more jaded and pragmatic and renounces some of their past ideals due to hardships, we call it bad writing.

Jaina and Genn are that bad writing. The extreme hardships of losing their family, their land, their friends and family to a clear enemy should have only turned them into better, kinder, more loving people. Just look what happened with Sylvanas after a similar ordeal.


For all intents and purposes it was the Horde military, using Horde equipment, acting on orders from the Horde supreme commander, not just "Garrosh". Theramore got wrecked in Pandaria pre-patch, Garrosh ruled the Horde for almost an entire expansion afterwards, and it's not what he got deposed for (the coup would have never worked out if his "orcish superiority" policy didn't turn more and more insane as time went on. Theramore reaction was just "well, that was kind of extreme, but LOK'TAR!!!").

You leftist bastard.

[Deleted]

Because Alliance characters who call the Horde out on its shit are very rare, which triggers Horde fanboys because they're not used to the story holding their faction's actions to account beyond a convenient scapegoat instead of telling them how super special and badarse they are... but that they're also good and righteous even whilst they attack the Alliance unprovoked again. LOK'TAR!11!

Also MMO-Champion is notoriously a cesspit for Horde fanboyism. Just look at any Lore thread and Alliance positive posts get drowned out by the Sylvanas Defence Force coming up with some of the most hilariously delusional excuses to defend their waifu at all costs.


The vast majority of people who dislike Jaina are Horde fans, because she - and Genn - are the only two characters in the whole game who have the sheer audacity to be peeved that the Horde attacks the Alliance unprovoked and gets away with it multiple times. Most Alliance fans like her, because after two expansions of the Horde slaughtering people getting told "oh they're probably good people I guess, don't be mad they just destroyed another town, they're probably good deep down..." it's nice to have a character who doesn't bend over to excuse them.

It's always hysterical to see Horde fanboys call the Alliance 'whiners' but as soon as one Alliance character says so much as a bad word about the Horde you can look forward to literally years of forums being full of "OMG XYZ DESERVED 2 DIE BECUS S/HE SAID A MEAN THING ABOUT TEH HORDE S/HE'S EEVVIILLL!11!1 FIX IT BLIZZ!1"

This is actually a good point. While for Jaina one could argue that they're switching her back and forth so much it's become odd and unbelievable, Genn at least has always been consistent, so I don't see why people complain that he does what is in his nature. He always despised the Horde so it makes sense especially now to attack it. Just like Garrosh for example attacked Ashenvale while night elves were mostly busy with Ragnaros. He didn't commit troops to help fight Ragnaros, he saw it as an opportunity to fight and conquer his enemy. And Genn hates the Horde, and sees this as an opportunity to destroy them, especially after, for him, it seemed as they betrayed the Alliance at the Broken Front. He doesn't see the Horde video like we did.

Innocent people can also have the means to defend themselves against unlawful militia's.

It's like asking the KKK to arrest all black people.
Everyone would fight against that.

No, it's more like the USA imprisoning Japanese-Americans during WW2. And just for the record, those that tried to fight were sometimes shot. All their belongings were confiscated too, by the way, even if they were later given back. They were imprisoned because they might harbour sympathies to the enemy of the USA or be spies. The USA did apologize for it eventually, but it made sense in the context on why it was done. Same here. Sunreavers (remember, Jaina didn't know it was just 1) helped the Horde steal the Divine Bell. The Horde thus became the enemy and the Sunreavers its associates. They were given choice to leave or be imprisoned. Some decided to fight. By doing so they just confirmed their allegiance to the Horde.

[lockybalboa]

Jaina has no depth....... She turned into an idiot over night, switched place with Varian over night. Varian declared WAR. Theramore was never attacked until it was militarized. Theramore was warned one week in advance that it would be destroyed as a military target. The horde never antagonized her, until then. After that Varian became Jaina and Jaina became Varian. For no reason.

The Horde were the aggressors all along. Garrosh started his Ashenvale and Gilneas invasion back in Cata. That's when all the shit started. Then in MoP Garrosh nuked Theramore for no justifiable reason at all. The warning didn't justify his actions. Theramore was alliance territory and home of Jaina, so of course she was pissed when it was nuked. And you are saying as if Garrosh had every right to start a war when all the alliance was defending itself against unprovoked assaults by the Horde. And what's wrong with Jaina getting pissed about having her home destroyed by the warmongerers? Talk about horde fanboyism.

[Deleted]

Genn is an idiot, that's why. In legion he's going after the Forsaken instead of The Legion (AFTER Anduin, his new king, tells the Alliance leaders to focus on the Legion and they NEED the Horde to defeat the Legion) Genn is jeopardising that by letting his emotions get in the way

Which is pretty much the same Sylvanas did. Varian saw a chance to end Gul'dan and the whole Legion threat as long as Sylvanas can hold the higher ground and support them and it was not like they couldn't hold out longer. Sylvanas threw away chance there to save some Horde members and she willingly sacrificed the Alliance members for that. And what did she get? Another shot to end the Legion but now the chance should be unrealisticly small after Gul'dan reached the tomb.

So she made a decision to save some horde members now, sacrificing the Alliance, just to likely lose whole Azeroth later. Very smart. As cool as Sylvanas is as a character, she pretty much always made the wrong choices.

Genn has a reasonable hate towards the Forsaken. They destroyed his home and killed his family. Does that make him blind for the true threat? Yes. But he at least has a reason to be blind and dumb. Sylvanas doesn't. Same with Jaina. She trusted the Horde and fought for peace and then she got betrayed by the Horde. Is she too blind because of all the rage? Probably. Or maybe she just doesn't want to save Azeroth just to see it taken over by the Horde with their next betrayal. But she has a motive. Even when it is not totally fitting her character and is a bit unreasonable for someone as smart as her, it is still a reason.

Sylvanas makes decisions based on "Oh, we need a story for our next addon so I need to do something stupid to not end it too early". So her character is actually pretty terrible written just for the sake of creating more content. It seems like she works for Blizzard and doesn't live in Warcraft. A

nd that is a huge mistake by Blizzard. Their story gets more and more holes and it gets written more and more to create content instead of writing a story and putting the content around it.

[Deleted]

My problem with that kind of writing Jainas story and character is: She turned into a psycho just at the same time when Varian conveniently began to be more level-headed and less warmongering than before.

This just does not feel right. You don't need to sacrifice one character so another character can fill the spot for a specific character trait.

Also, this looks like Blizzard gave in to all the winers about Jaina being "too boring" when she was peace-oriented. I liked Jaina just like that. She was a stroke of light in the usual mix of characters. But then they put this light into Anduins Character and the level-headedness into Varian and Jaina had to be the psycho bitch.

All for this waste of time that is called PvP.

I will agree with this. And not only that, but they can't seem to decide what to do with her, be a warmonger, just be suspicious, forgive the Horde? One moment she asks Varian to dismantle them, another she's willing to work with them, even if suspicious, at Garrosh's trial she only found him guilty, not the entire Horde so you'd think she mostly forgave the others then she's in Legion saying she'd never work with the Horde as they're traitors... it makes less and less sense.

She helped him get back Thunder Bluff which happened to be in her interest too.

Why? Why not help the Grimtotem? In the end, Garrosh had just renegated them, maybe she could have brought them in the Alliance if she's so pro-Alliance as you say. And they'd have also stopped their raids in Dustwallow with that. What she did was not in her interest or that of the Alliance.

[Sansnom]

All the time I see people giving Jaina and Genn shit for being "Warmongers", but their reasons for hating the Horde are fairly justified.

Because they are Warmongers? They want to wipe every Horde from Azeroth. They have valid reason for their views. It does not mean other people should accept it.

Even when during later part of the MoP and into WoD when it showed not every Horde follows Garrosh, they still retain the view they should be eradicated.

[Tome]

Bad writing is when characters suddenly turns a blind eye towards a world ending threat because suddenly they want to focus on their own vengeance.

Mistrusting each other and throwing hate at each other is fine, but when they start to want to attack each other instead of the Burning Legion it becomes silly.

[Hotto Pantsu]

The turn of events in WC3 was just the beginning. The Horde antagonized her time and time again until she reached her breaking point. Simple as that. How do you define "wise characters"? Passive wusses like Anduin? Who will just take any shit dished out by anyone, say "thank you" and make peace? Sorry that's just bad writing and horrible characterization. Characters like that have no depth at all. No inner self, and totally flattened by the PC morality imposed by Horde-biased Metzen and his writing team which seems to only apply to Alliance characters.

Imagine if that happened in real life...oh wait it does. EU is the alliance of the real life. Getting butt fked left and right and begging for more.