Why do Jaina and Genn get so much shit?

[Jademist]

Jaina's rage is totally justifiable if you read about what she went through. Most of the QQ about her comes from Horde players though.

I'm an Alliance player and I want her gone from the Alliance.

Her rage is not 100% justifiable. Many of the Horde did not know about Garrosh's plans to attack Theramore. She lost her shit too when, before confirming whether it was tied to Aethas or the Sunreavers, went crazy over the theft of the Divine Bell and proceeded to purge Dalaran of Blood Elves -- y'know, practically a genocide. She didn't even know the Horde's side of the story as to why they had to retreat, but she jumped to conclusions again. She's not thinking straight. Who the hell would think about starting a war against the Horde AND the Legion? She's lost her mind.

[Malacrass]

As far as I can tell people have little problems with Genn. They point out character flaws, which he has plenty, but they don't make him a terrible character. He is an angry old man, an unsocialized dog who has spent most of his life in a cage.
He could have used a lot more screentime since the Cataclysm, sure, but none of his actions are out of character. Even him comparing the current Legion invasion to the last makes sense. He's like one of those geezers who shake their fist and scream "get off my lawn!" and "I fought in Vietnam", and then you find out it's just a sad old man who was actually a draft dodger.

Jaina is a completely different story. She was introduced as this incredibly smart woman, tutored by one of the the most intelligent Archmages in the world. Who then got to know the Horde better than anyone else, who realised that a victory over the Burning Legion is only possible by uniting all factions. She knew that the Alliance and the Horde are not flawless, both have bad apples in them (one being her father, the other being Grom Hellscream).
And she kept that mindset, even after the Wrathgate. Why? Because she just knew better. She was a character who didn't let emotions control her decisions that easily. She knew that the majority of the Horde leaders were good people. Cairne, Thrall, Vol'jin - the core of the Horde.

And then the bombing of Theramore happened under Garrosh. An amazing event, and I loved that Jaina actually snapped and thought about drowning Ogrimmar in a massive wave. She used to handwave the concerns of those who lost people during the faction wars, now she had a real taste of such a loss herself.
But after Thrall and Kalec explained the situation, that should have been it. After the Alliance AND the Horde removed Garrosh from power by force, that should have been it. Rationality should have returned - but it didn't.
Instead she literally acts like a Dreadlord, trying to poison the minds of both Varian and Anduin in the most dire times.

Genn has a good excuse to question the Horde. He can scream at Wrynn that they can not be trusted. He has no idea what it means to actually oppose the Legion, he never participated in the second Legion invasion after all. He doesn't know the leaders of the Horde, no idea how the alternative (not working with the Horde) looks like.

Jaina, on the other hand, knows about the consequences of not working together. Even if the Theramore mindfuck completely changed her view of the Horde (including one of her best friends, Thrall), one would expect that she at least realizes that the alternative (fighting the Legion alone) is even worse. She's been there, she has seen it all. Time to wake up.
Unless she is a Dreadlord or Sha-infested, in that case her behavior does make sense.

[NFA]

Easy to place judgement as a player when you have access to every piece of information. I wish people would stop being this stupid and actually try to look at it from the character's point of view and not their own.

That would require intelligence though, and we are on MMO-C.

[Jademist]

The turn of events in WC3 was just the beginning. The Horde antagonized her time and time again until she reached her breaking point. Simple as that. How do you define "wise characters"? Passive wusses like Anduin? Who will just take any shit dished out by anyone, say "thank you" and make peace? Sorry that's just bad writing and horrible characterization. Characters like that have no depth at all. No inner self, and totally flattened by the PC morality imposed by Horde-biased Metzen and his writing team which seems to only apply to Alliance characters.

Let me see...Tyrande and Malfurion aren't super anti-Horde that they are unwilling to work with them despite the fact that the Orcs murdered their beloved Cenarius, and have been razing Ashenvale forest to the ground, among other things. They have wisdom enough to know that starting another war against the Horde during a full-out invasion by the Burning Legion is going to be the death of everyone.

Anduin has wisdom that Jaina lacks. He made sense when he opposed starting another war for petty revenge against the Horde was not going to be a wise idea especially during an invasion by the Legion. Jaina is just going mad. She wanted to purge Dalaran of blood elves -- actually, partially succeeded, without even finding out whether Aethas Sunreaver, a man who supported her in becoming the leader of the Kirin Tor, was actually linked to the theft of the Divine Bell.

I look back at real life examples of people who, through suffering and trauma, managed to come out the other side a better person. Take Victor Frankl, a Jew who was left to rot in a Nazi concentration camp. At the end of the war he was able to forgive those who have harmed him and caused the death of millions of his people. That's wisdom. That's maturity. That's why I think Anduin has more of a spine than Jaina who just wants to go on a murderous rampage again.

If you think that a man who wants to make peace with a people who has harmed his people, to work together with them, as "no depth", I would like to argue that people who just go on a murderous rampage without clearly thinking of the repercussions, including having to fight a war on two fronts, equally doesn't have depth. It's like the default for Jaina already. After Warcrimes I thought the writers would take her back to her original, more diplomatic and emphatic self. Her losing her shit once was fine. Losing it twice is a different story.

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Easy to place judgement as a player when you have access to every piece of information. I wish people would stop being this stupid and actually try to look at it from the character's point of view and not their own.

That would require intelligence though, and we are on MMO-C.

Jaina should be wiser. Instead of finding out, through diplomatic measures, why the Horde fled, she jumps the gun and wants to start a war against the Horde. Is that really smart? I mean, she's highly intelligent but can't she see that starting another war with the Horde WHILE fighting the Legion is senseless? Anduin can see that. Velen can see that. Tyrande and Malfurion and the Dwarven Council can see that. Jaina is becoming a loose canon. Even Khadgar wants her out of the Kirin Tor.

[KaPe]

Because they are Warmongers? They want to wipe every Horde from Azeroth. They have valid reason for their views. It does not mean other people should accept it.

Even when during later part of the MoP and into WoD when it showed not every Horde follows Garrosh, they still retain the view they should be eradicated.

Your mistake is assuming their goal is "kill every Horde member". This goes back to the whole "dismantle the Horde" during SoO - conveniently taken out of context and suggesting Jaina wanted to slaughter them all. Even blues had to clarify that this statement never meant that, but some people appearently "forgot". It wouldn't fit their narrative that she's a genocidal maniac.

Not to mention that "we should focus on greater threat" is a convenient excuse that's brought up every time. Except that stuff keeps piling up and there's a limit to how much can be forgiven in the name of greater goals.

[Tenjen]

While i am against Jaina and Genn causing issues right now, Genn is justified in requiring reprisals against the atrocities the forsaken committed against his people.

[NFA]

Jaina should be wiser. Instead of finding out, through diplomatic measures, why the Horde fled, she jumps the gun and wants to start a war against the Horde. Is that really smart? I mean, she's highly intelligent but can't she see that starting another war with the Horde WHILE fighting the Legion is senseless? Anduin can see that. Velen can see that. Tyrande and Malfurion and the Dwarven Council can see that. Jaina is becoming a loose canon. Even Khadgar wants her out of the Kirin Tor.

Why should she be wiser? Intelligent characters make mistakes just like everyone else. Jaina is pissed and is harboring animosity towards the Horde for several reasons and its unlikely she's ever gonna just "get over" what they've done to her.

Yeah, its pretty stupid to warmonger against the Horde when the Legion just killed off the High King and everyone is on the defensive. But its a flaw, good characters tend to have them. Apparently people on here don't want them to though.

[Tenjen]

While i think right now is not the time to be pushing their own agenda's, Genn has a point about the Frosaken's atrocities against his people being unforgivable.

Its just not the time right now. Achieve your greater goals and return to the issues afterwards. No point avenging your people if you are making way for the legion. Especially since the legion is actively trying to make the horde and alliance fight each other.

Hope theres an event where it costs them dearly.

[Deleted]

Your mistake is assuming their goal is "kill every Horde member". This goes back to the whole "dismantle the Horde" during SoO - conveniently taken out of context and suggesting Jaina wanted to slaughter them all. Even blues had to clarify that this statement never meant that, but some people appearently "forgot". It wouldn't fit their narrative that she's a genocidal maniac.

Not to mention that "we should focus on greater threat" is a convenient excuse that's brought up every time. Except that stuff keeps piling up and there's a limit to how much can be forgiven in the name of greater goals.

You can only "dismantle" something you have control over, like the Alliance did with Nazi Germany after winning WWII. In SoO it was a different situation, since the Rebel Horde was on the victor's side along with the Alliance. Up to now, the Alliance does not have the power to "dismantle" the Horde, and if Jaina demands such a thing, then she is completely delusional. Which is another reason why she should be removed from the board in this game.

I also wonder after playing the BS scenario on Alliance side, where the Hell is she in the final cinematic? Have I totally missed the part where she teleports out prematurely? What's the point of bringing a superhero-mage with mass-teleport with you, if she cannot use this ability to move her king and other prominent figures to safety? If anything, the gunship had to be sacrificed to cover the retreat, like you sacrifice a chess piece to protect your king, else you lose the game.

[Jademist]

Why should she be wiser? Intelligent characters make mistakes just like everyone else. Jaina is pissed and is harboring animosity towards the Horde for several reasons and its unlikely she's ever gonna just "get over" what they've done to her.

Yeah, its pretty stupid to warmonger against the Horde when the Legion just killed off the High King and everyone is on the defensive. But its a flaw, good characters tend to have them. Apparently people on here don't want them to though.

I understand characters need flaws but her flaw is being overused to define her, in my opinion. In Warcrimes she becomes more level-headed again, acknowledging that not all the Horde was corrupt and evil. Now, all of a sudden, she wants to go back to being a warmonger.

[greeeed]

Don't you know?
Only Horde have right to attack.
If Alliance dare to do that, then they are Warmongers.

[Ripitgood]

When a character turns stronger and wiser due to hardships, we call it character development.

When a character gets more jaded and pragmatic and renounces some of their past ideals due to hardships, we call it bad writing.

Jaina and Genn are that bad writing. The extreme hardships of losing their family, their land, their friends and family to a clear enemy should have only turned them into better, kinder, more loving people. Just look what happened with Sylvanas after a similar ordeal.


For all intents and purposes it was the Horde military, using Horde equipment, acting on orders from the Horde supreme commander, not just "Garrosh". Theramore got wrecked in Pandaria pre-patch, Garrosh ruled the Horde for almost an entire expansion afterwards, and it's not what he got deposed for (the coup would have never worked out if his "orcish superiority" policy didn't turn more and more insane as time went on. Theramore reaction was just "well, that was kind of extreme, but LOK'TAR!!!").

Bad Writing? While I don't feel OP's accusations are completely accurate in terms of Gen/Jaina being warmongers.

How is either character "bad writing". Further since when is a character dynamically changing with the landscape in a given universe for the better or worse "bad writing"?

I think you're confusing "bad" with "accurate". Not every Character in fiction, or Human in history got "better" at the hands of devastating loss. And if they did, it was a woefully LONG and DIFFICULT ROAD, Where they made far more mistakes before the realization of what they've become occurs to them. Still including both Fiction and Non-Fiction.

Characters changing, Isn't "bad writing" it's GOOD writing. There is no good with out bad, there is no weak with out strong. If every thing we see in the WoW universe shows us strength and good, what's the point of the bad? We're not needed if OUR heroes are un killable or un breakable. If any character is/was Warmongering it was Lo'Gosh (My personal favorite). And he has FAR more reason to be than most. But between his hardships, his son, and his kingdom he learned to temper his anger, with out dulling his strength. That is good writing! Jaina and Gen both succumbing to who they are as people isn't "bad writing". It's likely what would happen if such a situation occurred ya know?

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You can only "dismantle" something you have control over, like the Alliance did with Nazi Germany after winning WWII. In SoO it was a different situation, since the Rebel Horde was on the victor's side along with the Alliance. Up to now, the Alliance does not have the power to "dismantle" the Horde, and if Jaina demands such a thing, then she is completely delusional. Which is another reason why she should be removed from the board in this game.

I also wonder after playing the BS scenario on Alliance side, where the Hell is she in the final cinematic? Have I totally missed the part where she teleports out prematurely? What's the point of bringing a superhero-mage with mass-teleport with you, if she cannot use this ability to move her king and other prominent figures to safety? If anything, the gunship had to be sacrificed to cover the retreat, like you sacrifice a chess piece to protect your king, else you lose the game.

While I agree that they've abused Jaina in recent lore in terms of what she can and can't do, and when she decides to do it. Lets be honest. While Jaina is EXTREMELY powerful, likely respectable to Khad'gar. She is no match for Gul'Dan alone. Likely neither was Lo'Gosh as much as it pains me to say, him being my favorite character. Her dropping down there would have likely ended with us loosing them both.

And this is to ignore the fact she's totally a Dreadlord.

[Jademist]

Bad Writing? While I don't feel OP's accusations are completely accurate in terms of Gen/Jaina being warmongers.

How is either character "bad writing". Further since when is a character dynamically changing with the landscape in a given universe for the better or worse "bad writing"?

I think you're confusing "bad" with "accurate". Not every Character in fiction, or Human in history got "better" at the hands of devastating loss. And if they did, it was a woefully LONG and DIFFICULT ROAD, Where they made far more mistakes before the realization of what they've become occurs to them. Still including both Fiction and Non-Fiction.

Characters changing, Isn't "bad writing" it's GOOD writing. There is no good with out bad, there is no weak with out strong. If every thing we see in the WoW universe shows us strength and good, what's the point of the bad? We're not needed if OUR heroes are un killable or un breakable. If any character is/was Warmongering it was Lo'Gosh (My personal favorite). And he has FAR more reason to be than most. But between his hardships, his son, and his kingdom he learned to temper his anger, with out dulling his strength. That is good writing! Jaina and Gen both succumbing to who they are as people isn't "bad writing". It's likely what would happen if such a situation occurred ya know?

Jaina's progression is bad writing because she keeps flip flopping. Have you read Warcrimes? She actually becomes more level-headed in that one. All of a sudden, that gets thrown out into the wind again in favor of "oh she's going to get super mad again" trope. It was actually cool to see her go from wanting to dismantle the Horde to being more understanding that there were those who wanted to fight Garrosh's atrocities. That was good writing. I know that Warcrimes was not written by Blizzard's story staff but it's canon and they should have respected that.

Idk, I guess we will just see where it all leads.

[Gum]

Horde vs Alliance threads are legit a total copy of "Europe immigration thread". Horde being scumbags when invited to stay as long as they dont do stupid crap, alliance letting them live in their world. Horde still does stupid crap constantly antagonizing local alliance residents.

It finally snaps for a few, they scream to the leaders for help, no response.
Genn and Jaina are the only politicians willing to question if the horde should even be allowed around when all they do is fucking crime
Alliance could have ended them, but believed that the overwhelming majority of "good horde refugees" are gonna outweigh the "few bad apples"
Jaina and Genn continuesly see "bad apples" everywhere
"If bad apples werent around, none of this would have happend" - And its true
People are super mad that Jaina and Genn could even suggest that the horde should gtfo. Fukkin racist amirite?
Horde commits more bullshit
Noone does fuck all, cus apologist scum keeps defending the behavior of criminals and weak under-leaders of the horde.
Guess we're all horde now.

Did i interpret it correctly?

If not, it sounds very much alike.
Pick your sides. Both sides are right, but also wrong. Its almost like there's more to the story than right and wrong, and it might even give food for thought. Good writing?

[Deleted]

What's the difference between Garrosh and Jaina?(because both have reasons they can justify).

Horde is less bureaucratic. The strongest will always lead(that's what Garrosh did). Jaina, if given any power, would even be more agressive than Garrosh(or atleast on same level).

Wierdest thing is thou, nobody supported Garrosh from the playerbase(he was like the bad guy for everyone). Alliance playerbase is supporting Jaina thou.

I call it - she WILL be one of the bosses one day and I would love to raid her.

How Garrosh was pretty much about wiping alliance to extinction whenever he attacked. He didn't go i conquered you, your now under hordes juristriction.

She had a moment where didnt care if everyone died in orgrimmar by her tidalwave but she moved on from wanting to eliminate the people of the horde excisting. She is still against the horde, maybe she wants to end it as well......not sure about that part.

[GennGreymane]

Because of those goddam hippies. Peace at all costs they say..... they would sit and let their homes be ransacked by the Horde just to prove their point!

[Deleted]

I understand characters need flaws but her flaw is being overused to define her, in my opinion. In Warcrimes she becomes more level-headed again, acknowledging that not all the Horde was corrupt and evil. Now, all of a sudden, she wants to go back to being a warmonger.

Yep i do agree it makes no sense, unless there is any kind of external force at play.
Since i saw the presagist video about khadgar, i keep on wondering, who else would be the Legion interested in bringing to the dark side.
I think Jaina could be a good candidate for that.

[Jademist]

Because of those goddam hippies. Peace at all costs they say..... they would sit and let their homes be ransacked by the Horde just to prove their point!

Which hippies? The Night Elves who fought the Horde in Ashenvale in defense of their lands? Just because someone wants to make peace and broker an alliance with their enemies to find a greater evil doesn't necessarily make them some kind of wusses. Remember that one time when Russia joined forces with the Allied powers to fight Nazi Germany? Now imagine Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan as the Burning Legion, Russia as one faction and the allied powers as the other faction.

And other than Garrosh's rampage when has the Horde tried to take over Alliance territory? They went to Kalimdor, far away from the Alliance seat of power, for crying out loud. Under Thrall and Vol'Jin the Horde did not do anything close to "ransacking" Alliance territory. Garrosh was the anomaly among Horde Warchiefs.

[Bigby]

My only issue with Jaina is the complete abandonment of her relationships with the Horde characters she actually considered friends. Her rage against Garrosh was justified. I'm even willing to accept her anger towards the Horde. But the one thing that I refuse to accept is that Jaina would throw Thrall and Baine under the bus too. She bonded with them. She considered them friends. Hell, she funded the counterattack against Magatha that lead to Baine taking back Thunder Bluff.

And now? Jaina just lumps ALL members of the Horde into one big "us vs them" category with no exceptions to those she KNOWS to be better. THAT is what I refuse to accept about the new Jaina. Everything else? I'm okay with her keeping.

Because when Jaina asked Thrall for help to stop Garrosh, he shrugged it off as not being his problem. Then when Jaina threatened Orgrimmar he comes running back at full speed. Also, Thrall was the one who gave Garrosh the job in the first place. She is absolutely right in being pissed off at Thrall, if not for messing up with Garrosh, for not helping her out until HIS home was on the line.

Baine might as well not exist. The story only grudgingly pretends he's around because it's a reminder that he's the best Warchief candidate and - like Vol'jin was - is the only major Tauren character in existence.

Considering all members of the Horde you could consider moderate have, at best, followed Garrosh's orders and only turned on him when THEY were threatened - including Thrall - it's not difficult to see why she hates the Horde as a whole. The whole "Oh I'm sure the Horde has good people" thing doesn't really work when they're going along with attacking the Alliance... AGAIN, all because their Warchief is a bit of a dick, and even if they don't like it, they still did it.

[Sorrowseer]

I really do not get the horde mentality that Jaina should not dislike them, that she should be neutral and and friendly even to them, for what reason...

I have leveled up though both sides, the thing that sticks with me, are that the Horde really are disgusting genocidal monsters with no real justification, the one thing they have is a massive overblown victim complex, after being the cause of all their own troubles.